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Mexico

It causes an average of 4.15 wounds on Custodes, 6.5 with doctrine.

It isn't killing 10 per game, more like 7 or 8.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 23:36:06


 
   
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 Tyran wrote:
It causes an average of 4.15 wounds on Custodes, 6.5 with doctrine.

It isn't killing 10 per game, more like 7 or 8.


Which is twice the cost of the contemptor (416 points as a previous poster pointed out for the 8ish dead they also calculated).
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Yep, volkite basically varies from "solid" to "better than anything else" against almost every profile. T7 3+ with no invuln is about the only profile it's significantly worse than the competition at, and even then it's not really bad, just mediocre.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Audustum wrote:
Spoiler:
Quasistellar wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Look dude it is simple math. If you were to hit and wound with everything on 16 shots you'd only expect 3 mortal wounds or less. You aren't going to hit with everything. Your gonna hit with 10 - here you expect 2 or less mortal wounds...This isn't effective armor killing. It is decent reliable 2-4 wounds you can put on an armored target. Keep in mind a 2x MM dread will reliably kill armored targets. It is good against the raider because it only has a 4+ save. It is bad against pretty much everything else.


The mid-high strength + number of shots + chance of mortal wounds creates a much wider bell curve and you're less likely to have the "wrong" weapon. Dealing a mortal wound or two makes up for targets having invulns -- something extremely important that none of the other weapons can do.

One of the real overlooked issue with Volkite contemptors is the fact that all the other weapon options. . . kinda stink at best and auto-lose matchups at worst:

Lascannons = oh look I rolled a 1 for damage. 25 points. Wow. Much satisfy.
Multi-melta = gotta get close or else see: lascannons (dreads aren't as fast and maneuverable as attack bikes)
Plasma cannon = like, this weapon is literally good at nothing. There's no reason to ever take it, which is pretty damning because it's the free weapon.
Twin Autocannon = at best it's efficient vs a single profile in the game, and at worst it's trash when up against a very common army or defensive mechanic that's becoming common. And all this for 3x the price of the volkite.
Kheres = would probably be great if it was higher range or 8 shots instead of 6, but it's not, so here we are.
Twin Heavy Bolter = would probably be fine at 5 points instead of 15 points.
Conversion beamer = lol this used to be interesting, and now it's laughably bad.

And let's not forget that these lists featuring volkite contemptors aren't sweeping tournaments. Maybe they should be 10 points instead of 5, but that won't change what they have to shoot at or that the other weapons aren't great.


Let's not forget CSM slapping Prescience + Vets on theirs to make it an even more cost effective pain train. While those buffs buff anything, they take an aggressively priced unit and make it 'trade up' very well into many things.

You're putting Vets on a dreadnought? Let's hope your opponent doesn't know the rules for that particular strategem.

The volkites are damned good though, they may be the replacement for Butcher Cannons for CSM Contemptors. They do kinda fall on their face against anything with -1 damage like other dreadnoughts or DG though, or anything with real armour. Or both.
   
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Mexico

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Which is twice the cost of the contemptor (416 points as a previous poster pointed out for the 8ish dead they also calculated).


Yes, assuming the Contemptor lives the 5 full turns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 01:18:25


 
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Spoiler:
Quasistellar wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Look dude it is simple math. If you were to hit and wound with everything on 16 shots you'd only expect 3 mortal wounds or less. You aren't going to hit with everything. Your gonna hit with 10 - here you expect 2 or less mortal wounds...This isn't effective armor killing. It is decent reliable 2-4 wounds you can put on an armored target. Keep in mind a 2x MM dread will reliably kill armored targets. It is good against the raider because it only has a 4+ save. It is bad against pretty much everything else.


The mid-high strength + number of shots + chance of mortal wounds creates a much wider bell curve and you're less likely to have the "wrong" weapon. Dealing a mortal wound or two makes up for targets having invulns -- something extremely important that none of the other weapons can do.

One of the real overlooked issue with Volkite contemptors is the fact that all the other weapon options. . . kinda stink at best and auto-lose matchups at worst:

Lascannons = oh look I rolled a 1 for damage. 25 points. Wow. Much satisfy.
Multi-melta = gotta get close or else see: lascannons (dreads aren't as fast and maneuverable as attack bikes)
Plasma cannon = like, this weapon is literally good at nothing. There's no reason to ever take it, which is pretty damning because it's the free weapon.
Twin Autocannon = at best it's efficient vs a single profile in the game, and at worst it's trash when up against a very common army or defensive mechanic that's becoming common. And all this for 3x the price of the volkite.
Kheres = would probably be great if it was higher range or 8 shots instead of 6, but it's not, so here we are.
Twin Heavy Bolter = would probably be fine at 5 points instead of 15 points.
Conversion beamer = lol this used to be interesting, and now it's laughably bad.

And let's not forget that these lists featuring volkite contemptors aren't sweeping tournaments. Maybe they should be 10 points instead of 5, but that won't change what they have to shoot at or that the other weapons aren't great.


Let's not forget CSM slapping Prescience + Vets on theirs to make it an even more cost effective pain train. While those buffs buff anything, they take an aggressively priced unit and make it 'trade up' very well into many things.

You're putting Vets on a dreadnought? Let's hope your opponent doesn't know the rules for that particular strategem.

The volkites are damned good though, they may be the replacement for Butcher Cannons for CSM Contemptors. They do kinda fall on their face against anything with -1 damage like other dreadnoughts or DG though, or anything with real armour. Or both.


Wait, is there some issue? I don't play CSM but I've seen Vets used on Dreads before and no flags went off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 03:20:31


 
   
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Use this Stratagem when a HERETIC ASTARTES INFANTRY or BIKER unit is...
   
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Audustum wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Spoiler:
Quasistellar wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Look dude it is simple math. If you were to hit and wound with everything on 16 shots you'd only expect 3 mortal wounds or less. You aren't going to hit with everything. Your gonna hit with 10 - here you expect 2 or less mortal wounds...This isn't effective armor killing. It is decent reliable 2-4 wounds you can put on an armored target. Keep in mind a 2x MM dread will reliably kill armored targets. It is good against the raider because it only has a 4+ save. It is bad against pretty much everything else.


The mid-high strength + number of shots + chance of mortal wounds creates a much wider bell curve and you're less likely to have the "wrong" weapon. Dealing a mortal wound or two makes up for targets having invulns -- something extremely important that none of the other weapons can do.

One of the real overlooked issue with Volkite contemptors is the fact that all the other weapon options. . . kinda stink at best and auto-lose matchups at worst:

Lascannons = oh look I rolled a 1 for damage. 25 points. Wow. Much satisfy.
Multi-melta = gotta get close or else see: lascannons (dreads aren't as fast and maneuverable as attack bikes)
Plasma cannon = like, this weapon is literally good at nothing. There's no reason to ever take it, which is pretty damning because it's the free weapon.
Twin Autocannon = at best it's efficient vs a single profile in the game, and at worst it's trash when up against a very common army or defensive mechanic that's becoming common. And all this for 3x the price of the volkite.
Kheres = would probably be great if it was higher range or 8 shots instead of 6, but it's not, so here we are.
Twin Heavy Bolter = would probably be fine at 5 points instead of 15 points.
Conversion beamer = lol this used to be interesting, and now it's laughably bad.

And let's not forget that these lists featuring volkite contemptors aren't sweeping tournaments. Maybe they should be 10 points instead of 5, but that won't change what they have to shoot at or that the other weapons aren't great.


Let's not forget CSM slapping Prescience + Vets on theirs to make it an even more cost effective pain train. While those buffs buff anything, they take an aggressively priced unit and make it 'trade up' very well into many things.

You're putting Vets on a dreadnought? Let's hope your opponent doesn't know the rules for that particular strategem.

The volkites are damned good though, they may be the replacement for Butcher Cannons for CSM Contemptors. They do kinda fall on their face against anything with -1 damage like other dreadnoughts or DG though, or anything with real armour. Or both.


Wait, is there some issue? I don't play CSM but I've seen Vets used on Dreads before and no flags went off.

VOTLW only works on INFANTRY and BIKES. If your opponent used it on a dreadnought (which is a VEHICLE), they cheated.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Spoiler:
Quasistellar wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Look dude it is simple math. If you were to hit and wound with everything on 16 shots you'd only expect 3 mortal wounds or less. You aren't going to hit with everything. Your gonna hit with 10 - here you expect 2 or less mortal wounds...This isn't effective armor killing. It is decent reliable 2-4 wounds you can put on an armored target. Keep in mind a 2x MM dread will reliably kill armored targets. It is good against the raider because it only has a 4+ save. It is bad against pretty much everything else.


The mid-high strength + number of shots + chance of mortal wounds creates a much wider bell curve and you're less likely to have the "wrong" weapon. Dealing a mortal wound or two makes up for targets having invulns -- something extremely important that none of the other weapons can do.

One of the real overlooked issue with Volkite contemptors is the fact that all the other weapon options. . . kinda stink at best and auto-lose matchups at worst:

Lascannons = oh look I rolled a 1 for damage. 25 points. Wow. Much satisfy.
Multi-melta = gotta get close or else see: lascannons (dreads aren't as fast and maneuverable as attack bikes)
Plasma cannon = like, this weapon is literally good at nothing. There's no reason to ever take it, which is pretty damning because it's the free weapon.
Twin Autocannon = at best it's efficient vs a single profile in the game, and at worst it's trash when up against a very common army or defensive mechanic that's becoming common. And all this for 3x the price of the volkite.
Kheres = would probably be great if it was higher range or 8 shots instead of 6, but it's not, so here we are.
Twin Heavy Bolter = would probably be fine at 5 points instead of 15 points.
Conversion beamer = lol this used to be interesting, and now it's laughably bad.

And let's not forget that these lists featuring volkite contemptors aren't sweeping tournaments. Maybe they should be 10 points instead of 5, but that won't change what they have to shoot at or that the other weapons aren't great.


Let's not forget CSM slapping Prescience + Vets on theirs to make it an even more cost effective pain train. While those buffs buff anything, they take an aggressively priced unit and make it 'trade up' very well into many things.

You're putting Vets on a dreadnought? Let's hope your opponent doesn't know the rules for that particular strategem.

The volkites are damned good though, they may be the replacement for Butcher Cannons for CSM Contemptors. They do kinda fall on their face against anything with -1 damage like other dreadnoughts or DG though, or anything with real armour. Or both.


Wait, is there some issue? I don't play CSM but I've seen Vets used on Dreads before and no flags went off.

VOTLW only works on INFANTRY and BIKES. If your opponent used it on a dreadnought (which is a VEHICLE), they cheated.


Not just in my matches but I think other matches I've just seen and not been a player in. Good to know! Thank you!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
Use this Stratagem when a HERETIC ASTARTES INFANTRY or BIKER unit is...


Thank you!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/15 05:10:47


 
   
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To be fair VotLW would've been super broken on a Helbrute or Dread compared to, say, Obliterators or Havoks.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Something i stole today and the reason people think Raider should go in points:



[Thumb - Transport_dur.jpg]

[Thumb - BestTransport.JPG]

   
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The Autocannons is no surprise. People have brought up Supressors as the ideal unit to kill them for Marines but there's the silly restriction of the unit size. That means you aren't allowed more than 9.

Eradicators (that were in the box set first) being able to go up in models though? That's perfectly fine!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Open Topped is literally the best rule ever for a transport.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 06:45:20


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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It is so bizzar to see rhinos at 80pts, actually makes me happy, I can't use them for my dudes.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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What does that second table even mean? That those units should all get a points increase by A + B? Because in what world does a Ghost Arc need to cost over 200 points, or a Devilfish need a nerf?
   
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if all transport were suppose to be on the same level, they should. Of course the data shows more the level of difference between them, then the actual point costs. Because the game as of yet, is not played with just transports. So it is possible for an army to lets say have a very efficient , point wise, transport but no real point efficient stuff to transport in it.

The thing about DE is that they have super efficient units to transport, and the open topped rule, is extremly good for shoting units. Because it lets the units do their thing with practically zero interaction from the opponent.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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It`s damage + durability, but now than i look at it, there are some mistakes in calculations.
It`s showing the effectiveness of the vehicle, having in mind the opponent have the perfect weapon to kill it and damage that the vehicle can do itself.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/15 08:03:02


 
   
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I thought this one was settled: DE trade up too hard. Their units are too good for their points so opponents are playing an uphill battle.

It does seem the game is moving away from elite infantry to trading units of hyper efficient options. For me, the clear example of that archetype is repentia. Cheap Flying fast bunkers to shoot from and make sure units are what they need to be just rounds it up.
   
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Marin wrote:
Something i stole today and the reason people think Raider should go in points:

They should go up in points because they are a mandatory Drukhari unit and Drukhari are extremely OP.

Other armies literally don't matter. The context for those armies is different. Almost all Drukhari units should ride in vehicles, but the fact that we see no Venoms is a sign of underpowered Venoms or overpowered Raiders, the lack of foot-slogging and Drukhari's win rate indicates the Raider is OP.
   
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Grey40k wrote:
I thought this one was settled: DE trade up too hard. Their units are too good for their points so opponents are playing an uphill battle.

It does seem the game is moving away from elite infantry to trading units of hyper efficient options. For me, the clear example of that archetype is repentia. Cheap Flying fast bunkers to shoot from and make sure units are what they need to be just rounds it up.


Hyper efficient options would have been meta if they had existed. Now that they exist of course they are meta. I have been playing since end of 4th edition, and every time cheap but punchy units arrived with a new codex, they were meta. They will always be better than an expensive but durable punchy unit, with the exception of 7th edition (and 6th ? Can’t remember) invisibility which made durable units simply impossible to kill and therefore the best choice over cheap punchy units.

The Drukhari strengths are just very obvious auto includes, and playing drukhari will be better than playing another faction, that, is the current meta

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But harelquins were hyper efficient. Swarm SoB were considered that too. They traded up very well in 9th ed, which was shown in both armies win rates.

I think the only very elite army that was doing well, in 9th ed, was custodes.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Marin wrote:
Something i stole today and the reason people think Raider should go in points:

They should go up in points because they are a mandatory Drukhari unit and Drukhari are extremely OP.

Other armies literally don't matter. The context for those armies is different. Almost all Drukhari units should ride in vehicles, but the fact that we see no Venoms is a sign of underpowered Venoms or overpowered Raiders, the lack of foot-slogging and Drukhari's win rate indicates the Raider is OP.


Venoms are in fact underpowered and (20ish points) overcosted, and unless I'm forgetting something they're litterally the only transport that can be one-shot by a single hit from a D6 damage weapon.

And by your logic the lack of SM vehicles means that SM infantries are OP .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/15 13:01:43


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Marin wrote:
Something i stole today and the reason people think Raider should go in points:





People generally bash Ghost Arks, but they're pretty amazing. The perception being that they're bad since they're 1) not open topped, 2) don't drag around a big balls anti-tank gun, and 3) don't transport anything scary.

But in practice they drop as many shots as a 10 man intercessor squad and are quite hard to put down especially when there are other targets floating about.

I think this set of charts is perhaps a poor way to do the analysis, but in either case the perception of transports by posters is probably heavily skewed, because they see Raiders used, but don't see others used.

   
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I feel those tables have a very strong "show your workings" component missing. I can sort of guess how they work - but it seems like an odd way of looking at things in isolation. What's the baseline? Why is a Rhino "worth" 100 points defensively?

I think the issue for DE broadly is just that almost everything is costed too aggressively, so the DE player gets too much stuff. Its the most common imbalance in the game.

Basically DE players need to surrender 50-100 points. I think many players would prefer GW does this sooner rather than later - and they don't instead leave it for 18 months, then decide your standard 2000 DE force should really be 2400 points and as a result the faction is wrecked until a new book comes out.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:


I think this set of charts is perhaps a poor way to do the analysis, but in either case the perception of transports by posters is probably heavily skewed, because they see Raiders used, but don't see others used.



But doesn't it tell us something anyway? If DE have aggresive costed options, and units that don't require to be run at 10 man size squads, one could expect that at least at the casual levle one would see venomes. But that does not happen, raiders are taken instead.

Same way about, lets say marine transports. What does it say about their quality, and points to efficiency ratio, when practicaly no armies run them. I can't remember when was the last time I saw and impulsor or rhino pop up in a top 8 marine list, and to see a LR, I think I would have to go down to 8th ed.

Good options get used, bad options don't get used. Same way good armies being played more, then bad armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
I feel those tables have a very strong "show your workings" component missing. I can sort of guess how they work - but it seems like an odd way of looking at things in isolation. What's the baseline? Why is a Rhino "worth" 100 points defensively?
.

A combination of speed and resiliance the transport gives, which again is a combo of its stats and save value?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 15:03:06


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Marin wrote:
Something i stole today and the reason people think Raider should go in points:

They should go up in points because they are a mandatory Drukhari unit and Drukhari are extremely OP.

Other armies literally don't matter. The context for those armies is different. Almost all Drukhari units should ride in vehicles, but the fact that we see no Venoms is a sign of underpowered Venoms or overpowered Raiders, the lack of foot-slogging and Drukhari's win rate indicates the Raider is OP.


Venoms are in fact underpowered and (20ish points) overcosted, and unless I'm forgetting something they're litterally the only transport that can be one-shot by a single hit from a D6 damage weapon.

And by your logic the lack of SM vehicles means that SM infantries are OP .



No, by my logic SM infantry would be overpowered if Space Marines had a 70% win rate. Because they don't the logical assumption is that Space Marine vehicles that don't get used are underpowered. Come on, this is not that hard
   
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Karol wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


I think this set of charts is perhaps a poor way to do the analysis, but in either case the perception of transports by posters is probably heavily skewed, because they see Raiders used, but don't see others used.



But doesn't it tell us something anyway? If DE have aggresive costed options, and units that don't require to be run at 10 man size squads, one could expect that at least at the casual levle one would see venomes. But that does not happen, raiders are taken instead.

Same way about, lets say marine transports. What does it say about their quality, and points to efficiency ratio, when practicaly no armies run them. I can't remember when was the last time I saw and impulsor or rhino pop up in a top 8 marine list, and to see a LR, I think I would have to go down to 8th ed.

Good options get used, bad options don't get used. Same way good armies being played more, then bad armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
I feel those tables have a very strong "show your workings" component missing. I can sort of guess how they work - but it seems like an odd way of looking at things in isolation. What's the baseline? Why is a Rhino "worth" 100 points defensively?
.

A combination of speed and resiliance the transport gives, which again is a combo of its stats and save value?


You do see venoms at casual levels. Events =/= all causal lists.

Also its hard to say Raider is under costed b.c it is popular or if the venom is over costed, most DE players are saying it is over costed, do you remember the "Is it 65 or 75pts?" crap? b.c players couldn't believe it was 75pts base (which is b.c of Venom spam in 8th).

Also Marines don't use transports b.c a 2nd unit of the same unit (So 2 intercessors instead of 1 intercessor and 1 Impulsor) is straight just better. DE literally can't do that, taking 2x10 Wyches means the Wyches just die before doing anything. DE has a few options to take outside of transports and even those are not really good anymore b.c they got nerf (Talos and horde Wracks for example).

Yes good options get played for events, which means the same to Marines, DG, etc.. where are the Marine transports? Why no Replusors? Why no Impulsors? Why no Tac marines and Rhinos? Why no <insert 40 other datasheets.>

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You do see venoms at casual levels. Events =/= all causal lists.

I played a full termintor GK army in 8th ed, does it mean that in 8th people were playing GK termintor armies?

I checked non english forums, and the DE forum. There don't seem to be much of an entice to run venoms, when raiders cost just as much and are better.



Also its hard to say Raider is under costed b.c it is popular or if the venom is over costed, most DE players are saying it is over costed, do you remember the "Is it 65 or 75pts?" crap? b.c players couldn't believe it was 75pts base (which is b.c of Venom spam in 8th).

It doesn't matter what the venom is, it could be undercosted too, but if the raider is the better option, it won't be seeing play. Same way attack bikes were and are better then eradictors, doesn't make the eradictors an automaticly bad unit.

As to not knowing is a raider is undercosted. All it takes is to look at what it does, it point costs and the fact that a rhino is 80pts. I mean imagine this. If a razorback had 10-11 marines capacity, had a las+plas turret mount, it would still be worse then the raider, It would even be worse then the raider if it somehow also cost 80pts, because being open topped, flying and with an inv is such a boon to have.

The tau transports, which does fly, would have to come with some of the hammerhead guns to be comperable to a DE. Or the drones it has would have to get some really have duty gear like shields giving inv saves etc.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
You do see venoms at casual levels. Events =/= all causal lists.

I played a full termintor GK army in 8th ed, does it mean that in 8th people were playing GK termintor armies?

I checked non english forums, and the DE forum. There don't seem to be much of an entice to run venoms, when raiders cost just as much and are better.



Also its hard to say Raider is under costed b.c it is popular or if the venom is over costed, most DE players are saying it is over costed, do you remember the "Is it 65 or 75pts?" crap? b.c players couldn't believe it was 75pts base (which is b.c of Venom spam in 8th).

It doesn't matter what the venom is, it could be undercosted too, but if the raider is the better option, it won't be seeing play. Same way attack bikes were and are better then eradictors, doesn't make the eradictors an automaticly bad unit.

As to not knowing is a raider is undercosted. All it takes is to look at what it does, it point costs and the fact that a rhino is 80pts. I mean imagine this. If a razorback had 10-11 marines capacity, had a las+plas turret mount, it would still be worse then the raider, It would even be worse then the raider if it somehow also cost 80pts, because being open topped, flying and with an inv is such a boon to have.

The tau transports, which does fly, would have to come with some of the hammerhead guns to be comperable to a DE. Or the drones it has would have to get some really have duty gear like shields giving inv saves etc.



Im in multiple discords, FB groups, and websites, people are playing them, heck I even play them for casual games, I guess I don't count.

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CoS: 3500

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https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




But do they play them over the raiders, specially when they get access to them over venoms?
The thing costs as much as a raider, in points and fits 11 models. I maybe get venoms for something like incubi, but I really struggle what points would have to be played for that to happen, because 6 raiders fit in to a 2000pts DE army perfectly. It is like a no brainer, same as draz+ 3 units of wrecks or succububs and 3 units of witchs.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





Karol, you do know not everyone is going to play the most optimised units all the time. They may not even have some of those in there collection, but they do have the Venoms so play them more.
It's not unrealistic.

 
   
 
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