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 Ordana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Why are we arguing about this?

The game was in a pretty great state before Drukhari dropped (Outside us poor tau, AM, GSC and some other 8th armies). Marines were back at a 50% winrate and the best factions weren't marines or marines and equivalents, being sob and harlequins. All 9th books had a fair chance agaisnt each other, maybe necrons are a little left behind right now but nothing that can't change without points reductions.

Drukhari are the outlier. And lets hope they aren't the heralds of a new age of power. Nerfing drukhari is NOT being pro-marine biased. They trump all other armies just the same. No, the meta WAS not marine skewed when most armies had to take the tools to kill sisters of battle or harlequins or demon and orks hordes to win tournaments. But theres not amount of optimization you can do agaisnt drukhari to have a consistent fair game against them. Thats the truth.

The game is honestly in a terrible state. The only thing keeping the numbers somewhat more reasonable is harlequins/SOB/Custodians/Daemons are really low play rate compared to their power. DA are obnoxious / DG and marine supplements were more reasonable....DE have errors and combos equivalent to 8.5 Iron hands. Game honestly sucks right now - unless you are just playing for fun.

Honest I wonder how bad the complaints would be if there was no Covid and everyone was actually playing eachother as much as we used to.

Truth.

Volkite contemptors are overtuned too, so it's not a great solution to the problem of DE (besides not actually being a solution anyway).

yukishiro1 wrote:
Volkite contemptors are overtuned too, so it's not a great solution to the problem of DE (besides not actually being a solution anyway).

What do you mean?

48" ranged16x str6 D2 shots per model is nothing to scoff at forcing DE Raiders to take 4+ saves for each shots (not including mortal wounds on 6s). On a platform having 5++ with -1 to damage that has no degradation profile.

 whembly wrote:
48" ranged16x str6 D2 shots per model is nothing to scoff at forcing DE Raiders to take 4+ saves for each shots (not including mortal wounds on 6s). On a platform having 5++ with -1 to damage that has no degradation profile.

They aren't a solution because only a few factions have access to them without allies and because the models are expensive. The counter to an army should never be a single model spammed 3 times over.

They are also really bad against most things. They have 0 ap.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are also really bad against most things. They have 0 ap.

They do MW's on 6's. They're surprisingly effective against armor.

 whembly wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Volkite contemptors are overtuned too, so it's not a great solution to the problem of DE (besides not actually being a solution anyway).

What do you mean?

48" ranged16x str6 D2 shots per model is nothing to scoff at forcing DE Raiders to take 4+ saves for each shots (not including mortal wounds on 6s). On a platform having 5++ with -1 to damage that has no degradation profile.

I meant what I said: they are underpointed (i.e., overtuned) as well. I.e. too good. Not as ridiculous as the problematic DE stuff, but they overperform quite significantly compared to the other weapons options. So it's taking one overpowered thing to counter another (which doesn't actually fully counter it anyway).

The solution to a balance issue isn't to rely on something else that's also overpowered.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are also really bad against most things. They have 0 ap.

Nope. The MWs offset the lack of AP and make them a strong option against almost everything, which is poor design. The only thing they're not excellent against is 2+ armor.

Suppresors are actually better for Raider hunting that Volkite contemptors.

Well, sure, except that they die to a mild breeze.

Look dude it is simple math. If you were to hit and wound with everything on 16 shots you'd only expect 3 mortal wounds or less. You aren't going to hit with everything. Your gonna hit with 10 - here you expect 2 or less mortal wounds...This isn't effective armor killing. It is decent reliable 2-4 wounds you can put on an armored target. Keep in mind a 2x MM dread will reliably kill armored targets. It is good against the raider because it only has a 4+ save. It is bad against pretty much everything else.

 Tyran wrote:

But they are also a niche faction and that means that in a tournament setting, asuming they get balanced, are still going to have better win-rate than the more common factions.

You're going to have to prove that. I'm not going to take your word on it.

It is simple math, which you evidently haven't done. The main problem with the volkite is against T7 and/or 2+. It outperforms any other option against MEQ, for example, despite the 3+ save.

The volkite performs roughly as well as a MM vs anything except T7/8 3+ with no invuln, or a 2+ save or better with any T value. Any time you start fiddling with the rest of those stats - lowering T, adding an invuln, lowering the save - it generally comes out ahead or roughly comparable. And rerolls to wound obviously help it more.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It is simple math, which you evidently haven't done. The main problem with the volkite is against T7 and/or 2+. It outperforms any other option against MEQ, for example, despite the 3+ save.

The volkite performs roughly as well as a MM vs anything except T7/8 3+ with no invuln, or a 2+ save or better with any T value. Any time you start fiddling with the rest of those stats - lowering T, adding an invuln, lowering the save - it generally comes out ahead or roughly comparable. And rerolls to wound obviously help it more.

You do realize almost every vehicle/tank in the game is t7 3+ or better? So I am correct. It is bad vs everything else. It is extremely bad against 2+ saves too.

It's probably a waste of effort to ask you read what's written.

Many vehicles have invulns. That can skew things significantly. For example, vs a T8 3+/5++, the volkite is basically the same as the MM even w/in 12" - more consistent and with less spike potential, but similar average damage output. Vs a 4++, or outside 12", the volkite is better.

The only place where the MM really dominates is T7 3+ with no invuln w/in 12", or vs 2+ armor targets without a good invuln.

 Xenomancers wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It is simple math, which you evidently haven't done. The main problem with the volkite is against T7 and/or 2+. It outperforms any other option against MEQ, for example, despite the 3+ save.

The volkite performs roughly as well as a MM vs anything except T7/8 3+ with no invuln, or a 2+ save or better with any T value. Any time you start fiddling with the rest of those stats - lowering T, adding an invuln, lowering the save - it generally comes out ahead or roughly comparable. And rerolls to wound obviously help it more.

You do realize almost every vehicle/tank in the game is t7 3+ or better? So I am correct. It is bad vs everything else. It is extremely bad against 2+ saves too.

You realise a significant chunk of this very thread is talking about how OP the Raider is, right? It's not like T6 or lower vehicles are uncommon.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Look dude it is simple math. If you were to hit and wound with everything on 16 shots you'd only expect 3 mortal wounds or less. You aren't going to hit with everything. Your gonna hit with 10 - here you expect 2 or less mortal wounds...This isn't effective armor killing. It is decent reliable 2-4 wounds you can put on an armored target. Keep in mind a 2x MM dread will reliably kill armored targets. It is good against the raider because it only has a 4+ save. It is bad against pretty much everything else.

The mid-high strength + number of shots + chance of mortal wounds creates a much wider bell curve and you're less likely to have the "wrong" weapon. Dealing a mortal wound or two makes up for targets having invulns -- something extremely important that none of the other weapons can do.

One of the real overlooked issue with Volkite contemptors is the fact that all the other weapon options. . . kinda stink at best and auto-lose matchups at worst:

Lascannons = oh look I rolled a 1 for damage. 25 points. Wow. Much satisfy.
Multi-melta = gotta get close or else see: lascannons (dreads aren't as fast and maneuverable as attack bikes)
Plasma cannon = like, this weapon is literally good at nothing. There's no reason to ever take it, which is pretty damning because it's the free weapon.
Twin Autocannon = at best it's efficient vs a single profile in the game, and at worst it's trash when up against a very common army or defensive mechanic that's becoming common. And all this for 3x the price of the volkite.
Kheres = would probably be great if it was higher range or 8 shots instead of 6, but it's not, so here we are.
Twin Heavy Bolter = would probably be fine at 5 points instead of 15 points.
Conversion beamer = lol this used to be interesting, and now it's laughably bad.

And let's not forget that these lists featuring volkite contemptors aren't sweeping tournaments. Maybe they should be 10 points instead of 5, but that won't change what they have to shoot at or that the other weapons aren't great.

Quasistellar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Look dude it is simple math. If you were to hit and wound with everything on 16 shots you'd only expect 3 mortal wounds or less. You aren't going to hit with everything. Your gonna hit with 10 - here you expect 2 or less mortal wounds...This isn't effective armor killing. It is decent reliable 2-4 wounds you can put on an armored target. Keep in mind a 2x MM dread will reliably kill armored targets. It is good against the raider because it only has a 4+ save. It is bad against pretty much everything else.

The mid-high strength + number of shots + chance of mortal wounds creates a much wider bell curve and you're less likely to have the "wrong" weapon. Dealing a mortal wound or two makes up for targets having invulns -- something extremely important that none of the other weapons can do.

One of the real overlooked issue with Volkite contemptors is the fact that all the other weapon options. . . kinda stink at best and auto-lose matchups at worst:

Lascannons = oh look I rolled a 1 for damage. 25 points. Wow. Much satisfy.
Multi-melta = gotta get close or else see: lascannons (dreads aren't as fast and maneuverable as attack bikes)
Plasma cannon = like, this weapon is literally good at nothing. There's no reason to ever take it, which is pretty damning because it's the free weapon.
Twin Autocannon = at best it's efficient vs a single profile in the game, and at worst it's trash when up against a very common army or defensive mechanic that's becoming common. And all this for 3x the price of the volkite.
Kheres = would probably be great if it was higher range or 8 shots instead of 6, but it's not, so here we are.
Twin Heavy Bolter = would probably be fine at 5 points instead of 15 points.
Conversion beamer = lol this used to be interesting, and now it's laughably bad.

And let's not forget that these lists featuring volkite contemptors aren't sweeping tournaments. Maybe they should be 10 points instead of 5, but that won't change what they have to shoot at or that the other weapons aren't great.

Let's not forget CSM slapping Prescience + Vets on theirs to make it an even more cost effective pain train. While those buffs buff anything, they take an aggressively priced unit and make it 'trade up' very well into many things.

True, and they're the one weapon that they can take to semi-efficiently kill Raiders while *not* being total trash vs *everything* else.

And here we come back to the Raider issue.

Quasistellar wrote:


You're going to have to prove that. I'm not going to take your word on it.

For example take the whole Raiders mess. Assuming Raiders receive the 10-15 pts nerf, they are still going to remain a very viable unit. And Suppresors will still be the best unit Space Marines have for killing Raiders at long range.

So even assuming those nerfs happen, Space Marines player will still need to decide if they want to take Suppresors to kill Raiders, or take other options that are better against most other match-ups but still sub-optimal vs Raiders.

 Ordana wrote:

Spoiler:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Why are we arguing about this?

The game was in a pretty great state before Drukhari dropped (Outside us poor tau, AM, GSC and some other 8th armies). Marines were back at a 50% winrate and the best factions weren't marines or marines and equivalents, being sob and harlequins. All 9th books had a fair chance agaisnt each other, maybe necrons are a little left behind right now but nothing that can't change without points reductions.

Drukhari are the outlier. And lets hope they aren't the heralds of a new age of power. Nerfing drukhari is NOT being pro-marine biased. They trump all other armies just the same. No, the meta WAS not marine skewed when most armies had to take the tools to kill sisters of battle or harlequins or demon and orks hordes to win tournaments. But theres not amount of optimization you can do agaisnt drukhari to have a consistent fair game against them. Thats the truth.

The game is honestly in a terrible state. The only thing keeping the numbers somewhat more reasonable is harlequins/SOB/Custodians/Daemons are really low play rate compared to their power. DA are obnoxious / DG and marine supplements were more reasonable....DE have errors and combos equivalent to 8.5 Iron hands. Game honestly sucks right now - unless you are just playing for fun.

Honest I wonder how bad the complaints would be if there was no Covid and everyone was actually playing eachother as much as we used to.

The answer is "just as bad, maybe worse". Remember the total gakstorm around GSC Kellermorphs? Or Wraithlords and Scatterbikes? Conscripts? I think a short look at other non-marine "omgOP" examples gives a clear answer.

This is a meta shifting codex, so your usual lists prior to the release of this codex need to adjust.

I kitbash my Thousand Suns Contemptor.

Yes, the FW models too expensive, and it's neigh impossible to even find vokite culverin guns (shakes fists at Forgeworld).

Mine are the mono-posed Hellbrute models (Black Reach kit??) with Forgefiend gunz slapped on it. Yes, it's a proxy, but it's all GW models that's obviously doesn't look like a regular hellbrute, and so far no opponent or TO has a problem with it as the "rule of cool" usually rules the day.

What I normally do is split fire the first time I shoot to force my DE opponent to CP fast reaction on one of the raider then focus on the other raidiers.

I usually baby sit my Contemptor with an Exalted Sorcerer. So, my guys are re-rolling 1s as well as one unit may be prescience'ed.

Not knowing the actual mathhammer, but I recall that one Contemptor does a decent job in killing a raider. Plus, the other thing it does well is being that "distraction carnifex" as it forces the DE player to prioritize the shooting, while actually being a tough unit.

If you think you need more "ooph", I believe this contemptor can also get missile launchers (unless I'm thinking of a different platform?).

Just for the record, here's my CSM/Demon lists that I bring to tournies:

Slipspace wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It is simple math, which you evidently haven't done. The main problem with the volkite is against T7 and/or 2+. It outperforms any other option against MEQ, for example, despite the 3+ save.

The volkite performs roughly as well as a MM vs anything except T7/8 3+ with no invuln, or a 2+ save or better with any T value. Any time you start fiddling with the rest of those stats - lowering T, adding an invuln, lowering the save - it generally comes out ahead or roughly comparable. And rerolls to wound obviously help it more.

You do realize almost every vehicle/tank in the game is t7 3+ or better? So I am correct. It is bad vs everything else. It is extremely bad against 2+ saves too.

You realise a significant chunk of this very thread is talking about how OP the Raider is, right? It's not like T6 or lower vehicles are uncommon.

You literally have found a niche weapon which can do significant damage to a raider...but sucks against most other vehicles??? How does that help anything? You are just as likely to run into a custodian army or a DA/BT army as you are DE.

While it will help you win vs DE it isn't going to help you win a tournament.

 whembly wrote:
This is a meta shifting codex, so your usual lists prior to the release of this codex need to adjust.

I kitbash my Thousand Suns Contemptor.

Yes, the FW models too expensive, and it's neigh impossible to even find vokite culverin guns (shakes fists at Forgeworld).

Okay I gotta step in here: the FW Contemptor is actually a really fantastic model. You won't see me defending FW resin often, but the Contemptor is just a good model and not terribly overpriced (compare to the joke plastic contemptor). Okay, so the weapons themselves are too expensive IMO, but you don't have to buy them all at once and they're mega easy to magnetize and future-proof.

No denying that any time something FW makes gets remotely good that it's perpetually out of stock, though.

Yeah, contemptors are awesome, one of the best things FW makes, as well as the least overpriced. They are a pain to assemble, but that's a direct result of the extreme flexibility in posing, which IMO is worth the trade-off.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It is simple math, which you evidently haven't done. The main problem with the volkite is against T7 and/or 2+. It outperforms any other option against MEQ, for example, despite the 3+ save.

The volkite performs roughly as well as a MM vs anything except T7/8 3+ with no invuln, or a 2+ save or better with any T value. Any time you start fiddling with the rest of those stats - lowering T, adding an invuln, lowering the save - it generally comes out ahead or roughly comparable. And rerolls to wound obviously help it more.

You do realize almost every vehicle/tank in the game is t7 3+ or better? So I am correct. It is bad vs everything else. It is extremely bad against 2+ saves too.

You realise a significant chunk of this very thread is talking about how OP the Raider is, right? It's not like T6 or lower vehicles are uncommon.

You literally have found a niche weapon which can do significant damage to a raider...but sucks against most other vehicles??? How does that help anything? You are just as likely to run into a custodian army or a DA/BT army as you are DE.

While it will help you win vs DE it isn't going to help you win a tournament.

Anecdotally, I've faced a custodes, white scars and DA army recently with that aforementioned TS/Demon list, albeit with 2 volkite contemptors.

Contemptors did the heavy lifting putting wounds on those tough units, particularly against the custodes.

Yeah, the thing is that while they have no AP, that doesn't make any difference vs custodes in cover, and they have more shots than autocannons or heavy bolters, and they can mortal wound. All that adds up to a pretty good weapon vs custodes.

Quasistellar wrote:
Yeah, the thing is that while they have no AP, that doesn't make any difference vs custodes in cover, and they have more shots than autocannons or heavy bolters, and they can mortal wound. All that adds up to a pretty good weapon vs custodes.

Can you provide the math on that? I haven't looked at Contemptors in a while.

Doing mental math its 3D to a T5, 2+, 3w, Custode, so it kills 1. Which is kind of bad.

EDIT the quick mental math: 16 shots, 10 hits, 7 wounds, 1 failed save for 2D and 1 6 for 1 MW, so 3D, you have a good chance for a 2nd MW too.

They are a bit too good against custodes for something with no AP.

16 shots is gonna average 7 wounds.

1.16 failed saves + 1.16 mortals is 1-2 dead custodian guard dead per turn against shield guard.

Most lists bring 6-10 shield guard and a single contempter can kill 8 per game on average.


Just for perspective: 8 shield guard is 416pts. So shooting at an unoptimal target, the contemptor still kills x2 its own point cost.

Also You can get -1AP in Dev doc too, so outside of Cover its more like 6.5 wounds, so you can easily kill 2 Custodes.