Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
-5 pl for both Monolith and I think the Land Raider got the same treatment!

I mean, it's a great start

Actually the land raider stayed the same PL and its variants went down by 1

Immortals to T5, and Gauss Blasters now 30' Rapidfire.

I can live with a return to T5.


You missed the HUGE buffs to Deathmarks
T5, BS2+ and 36" range, S5 and -2 AP.
Heavy 1, but still. That's a much better gun for the job- they might actually kill enemies with a real sniper weapon.

Voss wrote:
I can live with a return to T5.


You missed the HUGE buffs to Deathmarks
T5, BS2+ and 36" range, S5 and -2 AP.
Heavy 1, but still. That's a much better gun

Yeah, I was excited for the immortals I forgot to type in the Deathmark buff. It looks great, they are overall much better than they were before.

Voss wrote:
I can live with a return to T5.


You missed the HUGE buffs to Deathmarks
T5, BS2+ and 36" range, S5 and -2 AP.
Heavy 1, but still. That's a much better gun for the job

Yea that's an eliminator quality sniper rifle.

With marines going to W2 the RP needs to be a little spicier. Hopefully that pans out.

Immortals at toughness 5 and 2 attacks base. 18ppm doesn't seem too bad all of a sudden, the gauss blaster change is a welcome bonus too.

I'm still not completely sold on Deathmarks, maybe my bad experiences with them are colouring my judgement but the BS 2+ and 36" range is definitely something worth tinkering with.

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Immortals at toughness 5 and 2 attacks base. 18ppm doesn't seem too bad all of a sudden, the gauss blaster change is a welcome bonus too.

Well they might go up in points you know...
Hopefully not because of the 2 attacks. That'd be irritating, even if the makes the new Novokh code suck a little less for them. (still trying to decide if I want to go with my original idea when I started my necron project, or switch to Nephrek for more general usefulness. It doesn't help that I despise the Nephrek fluff.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:
I can live with a return to T5.


You missed the HUGE buffs to Deathmarks
T5, BS2+ and 36" range, S5 and -2 AP.
Heavy 1, but still. That's a much better gun for the job

Yea that's an eliminator quality sniper rifle.

With marines going to W2 the RP needs to be a little spicier. Hopefully that pans out.

I am still holding out hope that it's only the Veterans who go to 2 Wounds.

If not, we suddenly have to compare out 18ppm Immortals to the Tactical marine bodies, and we go back to being sour.

I apologise for being the cynic here, but I am so unbelievably sick of getting token buffs...

Reanimation better be obnoxiously good in this upcoming book.

Nah WarCom article posted today says everyone is getting W2

So Tacs are going W2 but Immortals will be W1?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah WarCom article posted today says everyone is getting W2

Link?
Edit: ignore me couldn't find it before sorry

 IHateNids wrote:
I am still holding out hope that it's only the Veterans who go to 2 Wounds.

If not, we suddenly have to compare out 18ppm Immortals to the Tactical marine bodies, and we go back to being sour.

I apologise for being the cynic here, but I am so unbelievably sick of getting token buffs...

Reanimation better be obnoxiously good in this upcoming book.

You're Toughness 5 on Immortals, which is higher than a lot of armies' heroes.

I hate to break bad news to you man, but that Toughness is nothing to sneeze at. An extra Wound might sound better, but being a bit harder to Wound is fairly nice as well.

 Insectum7 wrote:
So Tacs are going W2 but Immortals will be W1?

Yeah. So either the new RP rules REALLY make up for it or Immortals apparently don't kill enough with their guns.

 IHateNids wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:
I can live with a return to T5.


You missed the HUGE buffs to Deathmarks
T5, BS2+ and 36" range, S5 and -2 AP.
Heavy 1, but still. That's a much better gun for the job

Yea that's an eliminator quality sniper rifle.

With marines going to W2 the RP needs to be a little spicier. Hopefully that pans out.

I am still holding out hope that it's only the Veterans who go to 2 Wounds.

If not, we suddenly have to compare out 18ppm Immortals to the Tactical marine bodies, and we go back to being sour.

I apologise for being the cynic here, but I am so unbelievably sick of getting token buffs...

Reanimation better be obnoxiously good in this upcoming book.

Immortals were better than Tacs when Tacs were 12 pts and Immortals 15. That's a 25% increase to get an extra wound vs 20% increase to get an extra Toughness and Attack, not to mention a new army wide Protocol mechanics, which we have to assume is an upgrade to the current RP, it's not really an unfair deal considering Tacs were worse than Immortals in late 8th edition. The problem is only really in the narrative aspect of Space Marines starting to live up to their narrative and Necrons doing so to a lesser extent than their Space Marine counterparts, fluff is all over the place anyway because stories are almost always written to highlight one faction or the other and Necrons are caught between being two conflicting themes of either being a necromantic horde or elite cyborgs, which is also exactly what makes Necrons different and exciting. GW should have just waited with changing pts, reduce the recommended game size from 2000 to 1750 and introduce half points where necessary for internal balance, update pts for units as they get new rules and not in preparation as seems to have been done. But who knows, we might see a further increase in Immortal cost which would be FUN, but not necessarily a new kind of unfair considering what some Troops choices went through in translation to 9th.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
So Tacs are going W2 but Immortals will be W1?

Yeah. So either the new RP rules REALLY make up for it or Immortals apparently don't kill enough with their guns.

That's really, REALLY, irritating.

Comparing tacticals to immortals, the wounds side is not such an issue if they are the same points. The Immortals weapon is much better, toughness 5 makes a real difference and assuming reanimation protocols stay the same - id rather have all the above instead of 2 wounds.

Sumilidon wrote:
Comparing tacticals to immortals, the wounds side is not such an issue if they are the same points. The Immortals weapon is much better, toughness 5 makes a real difference and assuming reanimation protocols stay the same - id rather have all the above instead of 2 wounds.

T5 sometimes makes a difference. They don't care about the heavy bolter change, but plasma still leaves them as goo.

RP staying the same would be a major problem. Immortal squads are too small for RP to matter as its written now- its simply too easy to wipe the unit off the board. T5 will require more gun at S4 & 5, but there is enough other stuff out there in quantity that if the opponent wants to wipe out the unit, they can. A lot of the DS suicide units that people used to use (with lots of special weapons, combi-weapons or whatever) still work just fine for wiping out immortals- the math doesn't change at all for a Stormtrooper or Chaos terminator drop, for example.


Don't get me wrong, I like the return of T5. But RP has to change.

I like the new Immortal/Deathmark stats, not as good as 2W, but T5 will do.

A note on the Deathmarks, there is now literally no incentive to counter deepstrike them, because if you do you now have a -1 to hit (Which i guess balances out with BS2+), and half the shots.

I do feel there is now an actually good reason to take them now though, overall I like it

Hm...with that new immortal statline. I still basically see no reason to use warriors again aside from a 20-man reaper bomb.

I like it all in all.

Imagine....30 gauss immortals, The deceiver, and a necron lord with a veil of darkness to bring a cryptek.

Make them Mephrit. - 60 str 5 AP-3 shots round 1? hnnnggg

I actually rate the T5 higher than I would an extra wound. The extra wound is not what makes Primaris Marines good, in actual fact throughout most of the previous edition it was touted as the main reason for why Primaris were so bad and underwhelming. When you're paying a premium for an extra wound in an edition where D2+ is EVERYWHERE it sucks. And nothing about that has changed. In actual fact, the amount of D2+ weapons is increasing. What obfuscated this was the gigantic improvement in Marine lethality with the 2.0 Codex, which is where their actual strengths lie. People are getting all excited about this but their hype will disappear when they come up against mass Starcannon Aeldari or a Necron list with 30 Praetorians.

I am so happy about the deathmarks. I've always liked them but admit their flaws.
Now we have a unit with a 2+ BS and 36" range, they actuslly function as snipers and not glorified warriors who cam do maybe 1 MW a turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I like the new Immortal/Deathmark stats, not as good as 2W, but T5 will do.

A note on the Deathmarks, there is now literally no incentive to counter deepstrike them, because if you do you now have a -1 to hit (Which i guess balances out with BS2+), and half the shots.

I do feel there is now an actually good reason to take them now though, overall I like it

Unless they have new special rules so if you countet deepstrike maybe they cause MW on a 4+ instead or something

Wait, I'm sorry I haven't been keeping up, is it confirmed that Immortals are going back to T5?

This is amazing. I'm super down with that.

Edit :
Oh I see it.
2 Attacks.
Gauss blasters are 30" range.

Deathmarks are also T5 and have 36" range guns S5 AP-2, but are now heavy.
Oh, they also hit on 2+.

I love these changes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I am still holding out hope that it's only the Veterans who go to 2 Wounds.

If not, we suddenly have to compare out 18ppm Immortals to the Tactical marine bodies, and we go back to being sour.

I apologise for being the cynic here, but I am so unbelievably sick of getting token buffs...

Reanimation better be obnoxiously good in this upcoming book.

You're Toughness 5 on Immortals, which is higher than a lot of armies' heroes.

I hate to break bad news to you man, but that Toughness is nothing to sneeze at. An extra Wound might sound better, but being a bit harder to Wound is fairly nice as well.

Ask Chaos Players how well small T5 W1 units do.

Yeah, T5 used to mean something, but everything dealt so much damage and had such high RoF in 8th ed that it stopped being relevant.

Maybe they'll make it less stupid in 9th ed.
I just like it for the nostalgia.

I don't think the changes look that great tbh. All of those weapons are damage 1 when every marine unit is going to 2 wounds. I guess it all depends on how reanimation is going to work, but so far it's not looking great for our troops.

You can now double tap at 15" range with blasters, which is a good buff for an army that wants to engage at mid range, Deathmarks can actually hit targets and hurt targets now and engage from a safe distance, immortals have a bit more durability against small arms which may synergize well with RP.

I don't think its that bleak. Its not overpowered, but its better than before and seems workable.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
I don't think the changes look that great tbh. All of those weapons are damage 1 when every marine unit is going to 2 wounds. I guess it all depends on how reanimation is going to work, but so far it's not looking great for our troops.

Marines are going up to 18pts/model, and there basic guns are still str 4 1 D so as it stands an immortal is 18pts so as a comparison

Immortal vs standard marine 10 v 10 30" (I think the bolter is going up to 30 as well)

Immortals

Gauss 10 shots 6.6 hits 4.3 w 2.87 unsaved
Tesla (24") 20 shots 13.2 tesla 19.2, 12.6 W, 4.18 unsaved
Marines

10 shots 6.6 hits 2.1 W 0.7 unsaved

Of course within 15" it's basically double damage but that T5 makes a bigger difference then expected
I admit I'm not factoring in character buffs or anything else but still not bad and the total SM wounds are 20 vs our 10 but with such neglible damage our RP should even the disparity

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I am still holding out hope that it's only the Veterans who go to 2 Wounds.

If not, we suddenly have to compare out 18ppm Immortals to the Tactical marine bodies, and we go back to being sour.

I apologise for being the cynic here, but I am so unbelievably sick of getting token buffs...

Reanimation better be obnoxiously good in this upcoming book.

You're Toughness 5 on Immortals, which is higher than a lot of armies' heroes.

I hate to break bad news to you man, but that Toughness is nothing to sneeze at. An extra Wound might sound better, but being a bit harder to Wound is fairly nice as well.

Ask Chaos Players how well small T5 W1 units do.

Yeah and getting +1 W in an edition full of multi-damage weapons and a meta entirely revolving around multi-damage weapons, while also paying a premium for that extra wound, is also not as big a buff as people think.

My lists already revolved around killing Primaris as a matter of course. Now other armies become way weaker to that but also end up paying more points and therefore bring less models.

I'll take it.

T5 is good sometimes, sometimes it does nothing.

W2 is good sometimes, sometimes it does nothing.

(The Immortal has a vastly better gun than even an Intercessor though.)

I like these changes to Immortals (and Deathmarks). GW are improving the overall resiliency of both Firstborn Marines and Necrons, but doing it in different ways, maintaining the armies unique feel.

 MinscS2 wrote:
\
(The Immortal has a vastly better gun than even an Intercessor though.)

At the moment the Intercessor gun can fire twice at 30" and at AP-2 for most of the game.