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Absolutionis wrote:Oh yeah. I missed that typo:

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Common Mistakes:
1- Your opponent's unit does not get a free "defensive fire" just because you charged them.


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Actually yes they do. It is on rules page 77 and it is clear as crystal. Defensive fire has nothing to do with "Overwatch" Overwatch is a shooting special rule and is discussed on page 73.

All you need to do is read. These rules are SO SO clear and easy to follow. Come on people.

Yea you are right, we played that wrong. But still being able to go out of a fast transport that has moved is really good, especially for those units without fleet.

So the orks would get a 9 inch vehicle move before disembarking and assaulting. Still very powerful considering they can flat out 27 I believe. Still learning the rules so I might be a little off


and no defensive fire is only when it is triggered by other things. You do not get it just for an individual assaulting. That is only if you have the overwatch rule. It specifically says right above defensive fire that it is only when other rules allow you to do it. same with charge by chance

STUCARIUS wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Oh yeah. I missed that typo:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Common Mistakes:
1- Your opponent's unit does not get a free "defensive fire" just because you charged them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually yes they do. It is on rules page 77 and it is clear as crystal. Defensive fire has nothing to do with "Overwatch" Overwatch is a shooting special rule and is discussed on page 73.

All you need to do is read. These rules are SO SO clear and easy to follow. Come on people.

Yes, it's so easy to follow, and yet you get them wrong. The text on rules page 77 describes how you perform the defensive fire action. It doesn't actually give you permission to use the action.

Assuming you're refering to this:

Page 77 wrote:If the responding unit was assaulted by the
target unit and it was not locked in combat
previously, it can shoot at the target unit. If the
units lose contact, follow the rules for lost
contact outside of the Assault phase as normal.

you're taking the part out of context: it discusses how you're allowed to fire when defensive fire has already triggered, it doesn't discuss the triggers.

I think Cavatore was fired because he didn't manage to understand how DF works.

Noir Eternal wrote:I don't think so, there is no reason to make the jump that its the weapons strength and not the models.

As well as on page 101 under their close combat special rule, it gives the weapon profile again without the 2x Strength to also lead to the fact the the weapon only gives AP2 and 2D6 armour pen

The description could be more explicit I'll concede.

p101 states they always attack as is armed with a monstrous close combat weapon and thus roll 2D6 + S for penetration. Whether this refers to the model's strength or the weapon's strength is unclear.

p72 states that the weapon's strength is twice the user's, but again the Cleave rule is unclear as to if the penetration roll is with the weapon's strength or not.

Personally I think you're probably right, as it would essentially mean all MC roll 10 + 2D6 for penetration and are always S10 in combat, most likely the 2S is a typo.

Dribble Joy wrote:

STUCARIUS wrote:You sir are correct. If anyone has said otherwise they are not reading the rules correctly. Which is odd because these rules are very well written and clear.

Please, please explain, quote, lay out and provide detailed reasoning as to why this is the case, because the paragraph on p56 (document page 77) is a condition of how the action is performed, not a trigger for DF itself.

Really? You do not understand that the action is taking place during the opponents assault? There are NO restrictions on which units can shoot only the conditions. The freaking trigger is that your unit was charged/assaulted. It says in the very first bullet point "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target and it was not locked in combat previously, It can shoot at the target. "

THE FREAKING TARGET IS THE UNIT ASSAULTING IT!!!!! COME ON!!!!!!!

Deep breaths....in ....out..... sigh.......It says very clearly if the unit was assaulted....

The things you actually think, I guess, you are restricted to are not even mentioned in the rules at the point the rules for using Defensive Fire are listed.

Billagio wrote:

theunicorn wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

ph34r wrote:As a guard player with a ton of guardsmen, this is a life saver.

Agreed. As a Tyranid player that uses Hormagants, it's also a Godsend.

Move: Move 6".
Shoot: Roll 3d6, probably move 5" or 6".
Assault: Move 6"

I love it, for the Horms it means Either a 18inch charge or a 16inch run move, both of which ignore terrain. Raveners just got even beefier with a 21inch charge that ignores terrain.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

How is it balanced where you can get into combat so easily on turn 1?

Er... Raveners have a 24" charge range today....

STUCARIUS wrote:There are NO restrictions on which units can shoot only the conditions.

Point out where.

The freaking trigger is that your unit was charged/assaulted.

Is it? Show us where.

It says in the very first bullet point "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target and it was not locked in combat previously, It can shoot at the target. "

Does that bullet point refer to triggering the action?

pretre wrote:Same way you do now, Spearhead diagonals are the easy one.

Even in Spearhead it is 24" or more to the opposite deployment zone with the exception of some very narrow corridors, but I guess it is possible. Aside from that though, I don't see it.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:[you're taking the part out of context: it discusses how you're allowed to fire when defensive fire has already triggered, it doesn't discuss the triggers.

It says right in the first bullet "If the responding unit (the one using defensive fire) was Assaulted... by the target unit it can shoot........"

How is that out of context?

Look......there is NO doubt that any unit that meets the criteria listed here and is assaulted or is subject to the other situations later mentioned in the rules and they meet the criteria listed on page 77 they can use defensive fire.

If that were not the case the game will not play. There would be no way for armies with lesser assault abilities to stay on the table. Your incorrect interpretation "BREAKS" the game. DOn't believe me? Try and play it both ways. One works, the other does not.

STUCARIUS wrote:

Dribble Joy wrote:

STUCARIUS wrote:You sir are correct. If anyone has said otherwise they are not reading the rules correctly. Which is odd because these rules are very well written and clear.

Please, please explain, quote, lay out and provide detailed reasoning as to why this is the case, because the paragraph on p56 (document page 77) is a condition of how the action is performed, not a trigger for DF itself.

Really? You do not understand that the action is taking place during the opponents assault? There are NO restrictions on which units can shoot only the conditions. The freaking trigger is that your unit was charged/assaulted. It says in the very first bullet point "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target and it was not locked in combat previously, It can shoot at the target. "

THE FREAKING TARGET IS THE UNIT ASSAULTING IT!!!!! COME ON!!!!!!!

Deep breaths....in ....out..... sigh.......It says very clearly if the unit was assaulted....

The things you actually think, I guess, you are restricted to are not even mentioned in the rules at the point the rules for using Defensive Fire are listed.

Calm. Down.

Defensive Fire lists only the exceptions to Shooting normally. In this case, the exception is you may shoot at the unit which charged you even if, at the end of their charge move, they are in contact with you. HOWEVER, it doesn't say the assault is what triggered it. The things which DO trigger Defensive Fire are clearly listed, and being assaulted is not one of them.

STUCARIUS wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Oh yeah. I missed that typo:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Common Mistakes:
1- Your opponent's unit does not get a free "defensive fire" just because you charged them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually yes they do. It is on rules page 77 and it is clear as crystal. Defensive fire has nothing to do with "Overwatch" Overwatch is a shooting special rule and is discussed on page 73.

All you need to do is read. These rules are SO SO clear and easy to follow. Come on people.

I'm not going through this again. All I'll say is you are wrong, and if you read from about pg 47 or 48 of this thread, there is plenty of explaination as to why you are wrong.

STUCARIUS wrote:
Really? You do not understand that the action is taking place during the opponents assault? There are NO restrictions on which units can shoot only the conditions. The freaking trigger is that your unit was charged/assaulted. It says in the very first bullet point "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target and it was not locked in combat previously, It can shoot at the target. "

THE FREAKING TARGET IS THE UNIT ASSAULTING IT!!!!! COME ON!!!!!!!

Deep breaths....in ....out..... sigh.......It says very clearly if the unit was assaulted....

The things you actually think, I guess, you are restricted to are not even mentioned in the rules at the point the rules for using Defensive Fire are listed.

Sry man I do not agree. Right above it says "To represent this, units can perform the following actions in an enemy turn if and only if the rules explicitly allow it.". The words "If assaulted you may " do not appear. The words used are "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target unit and it was not locked in combat previously, " and since you may not issue Support or shooting actions <The Type of action that Def-fire is> in your opponents turn without a trigger you may not issue this action in response to enemy assault action without Overwatch.

STUCARIUS wrote:How is that out of context?

Read the rest of the entire Defensive Fire entry and you will find out why.

Also, for you (and everyone else), press Ctrl + F to bring up the search function for PDFs. This brings a whole world of easy access to everything that pertains to any rule you wish to know about. Try 'defensive fire' and read everything each search result brings up.

Dribble Joy wrote:

STUCARIUS wrote:There are NO restrictions on which units can shoot only the conditions.

Point out where.

The freaking trigger is that your unit was charged/assaulted.

Is it? Show us where.

It says in the very first bullet point "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target and it was not locked in combat previously, It can shoot at the target. "

Does that bullet point refer to triggering the action?

Yes it establishes the base reason for Defensive FIre. The unit issuing defensive fire was assaulted. SO long as it does not violate the restrictions listed it can fire.

There are no limites on what type of unit or anything. Look GW is making the game WAY more deadly, if there is not balance on the side of the defender there are many armies that simply could not play under the new rules. Imagine IG armies under the new assault and movement rules not getting defensive fire.

Nope. Still wrong.

STUCARIUS wrote:

Dribble Joy wrote:

STUCARIUS wrote:There are NO restrictions on which units can shoot only the conditions.

Point out where.

The freaking trigger is that your unit was charged/assaulted.

Is it? Show us where.

It says in the very first bullet point "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target and it was not locked in combat previously, It can shoot at the target. "

Does that bullet point refer to triggering the action?

Yes it establishes the base reason for Defensive FIre. The unit issuing defensive fire was assaulted. SO long as it does not violate the restrictions listed it can fire.

There are no limites on what type of unit or anything. Look GW is making the game WAY more deadly, if there is not balance on the side of the defender there are many armies that simply could not play under the new rules. Imagine IG armies under the new assault and movement rules not getting defensive fire.

How would it effect them at all? The game looks far more balanced now than it ever did, and IG will be plenty capable of shooting down incoming assaulters since I can't think of a situation where someone would get first turn charge even under the new movement rules. And besides, it's not like one good assault won't wreck some IG armies in 5th edition either. (On a side note, I love Wraiths. )

@STUCARIUS: dude, are you really not getting this or are you just trolling?

You are making the mistake of not reading the two lines right before the defensive fire entry. You dont even look at that entry until something says you may preform a defensive fire. So anything it says about firing in the entry is moot until you are able to access it as a option.

STUCARIUS wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:[you're taking the part out of context: it discusses how you're allowed to fire when defensive fire has already triggered, it doesn't discuss the triggers.

It says right in the first bullet "If the responding unit (the one using defensive fire) was Assaulted... by the target unit it can shoot........"

How is that out of context?

Look......there is NO doubt that any unit that meets the criteria listed here and is assaulted or is subject to the other situations later mentioned in the rules and they meet the criteria listed on page 77 they can use defensive fire.

If that were not the case the game will not play. There would be no way for armies with lesser assault abilities to stay on the table. Your incorrect interpretation "BREAKS" the game. DOn't believe me? Try and play it both ways. One works, the other does not.

I've resisted jumping into this argument so far but since it's being so hotly debated, I thought I'd check for myself and I have to say that I can't agree with you Stucarius. You don't even need to consult the Defensive Fire rule. The Overwatch rule is all you need because it says

'OVERWATCH
Universal Shooting special rule
If an enemy unit ends a Move action within 12”, a
unit with this ability may perform a Defensive Fire
action and shoot at the intruding unit. If the unit
was assaulted by the enemy it can shoot
nonetheless. If the units lose contact, they
consolidate at the end of the phase as normal.'

The later entry for Defensive Fire merely explains what Overwatch allows you to do. Interestingly, you can only shoot if something ENDS a Move Action within 12"

You can't claim a trigger from the trigger effect itself. You require a trigger to be able to perform Defensive Fire. That trigger obviously can't be (the text in) Defensive Fire itself. So ignore what Defensive Fire says completely. Now go back through the PDF and check what triggers Defensive Fire. Hint: being assaulted is NOT one of them anywhere AT ALL.

Arguing about the inconsistencies of GW rules is usually a semi-waste of time.

Arguing about a possible leak of an early draft of GW rules is a tremendous waste of time.

Since the leak may or may not be a true indication of the new rules and regardless, you will only be playing it with friends until an official release (if there is one), no need to scream or argue with each other.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Arguing about the inconsistencies of GW rules is usually a semi-waste of time.

Arguing about a possible leak of an early draft of GW rules is a tremendous waste of time.

Since the leak may or may not be a true indication of the new rules and regardless, you will only be playing it with friends until an official release (if there is one), no need to scream or argue with each other.

Heh, I agree 100%. But....What a ride, wheeeeee!

AgeOfEgos wrote:Arguing about the inconsistencies of GW rules is usually a semi-waste of time.

Arguing about a possible leak of an early draft of GW rules is a tremendous waste of time.

Since the leak may or may not be a true indication of the new rules and regardless, you will only be playing it with friends until an official release (if there is one), no need to scream or argue with each other.

Well, GW is getting their play testing, aren't they =). I think they will have Defensive Fire/ Overwatch all worked out by the time the book is printed... lol.

STUCARIUS wrote:Yes it establishes the base reason for Defensive FIre. The unit issuing defensive fire was assaulted. SO long as it does not violate the restrictions listed it can fire.

There are no limites on what type of unit or anything. Look GW is making the game WAY more deadly, if there is not balance on the side of the defender there are many armies that simply could not play under the new rules. Imagine IG armies under the new assault and movement rules not getting defensive fire.

QED.

Re-reading the transport rules; the only way to enter a transport is via the consolidation phase, rather than being able to embark in that phase as an additional benefit.

Also, being able to move forward, jump out, shoot and jump back in is all well and good, but bare in mind that turning that rhino/chimera/waveserpent/falcon around to unload your melta-death means that it is very easy for any assaulting unit to block the access point(s), meaning if they tear it up in combat next turn, they will get to charge-by-chance/defensive fire the poor unfortunates as they stagger from the wreckage.

This makes assault lists much more effective against mech lists as they don't end up standing around like muppets in front of the guns after they tear the vehicles apart.

Anyone else find people arguing rules from a leaked playtest document hilarious?

Ozymandias wrote:Anyone else find people arguing rules from a leaked playtest document hilarious?

Only the first 10 people that posted that in this thread. lol

ON another note, it's nice to see my wish that terrain become part of your army choice (via a very strange mechanism but I can't have everything)

Also I can't believe that no-one has mentioned that the Monolith has MT-7, so as it's always counting as stationary what is it going to use 14 shooting actions for?

I've heard of redundancy but thats taking it a bit far.

Cheers

Andrew

Edit for typos.