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Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

 Quickjager wrote:
If you think we actually spent 53 pages NOT dicussing how to make GK works then your brain is in a worse state than the GK codex.


What I think is you are putting a lot of energy trying to get me to argue with you.

 Quickjager wrote:
We already know what works, we already know wargear is best for X enemy, we know because between the twenty-something players who have actually contributed we can hash out a good gameplan. How about we look at you instead.

"Most of the conversations about GK center on competitive players whining about not having silver-bullet copy-and-paste lists that place reliably in the top 10 at events. This says something about players more than the army."

Okay character attacks on COMPETITIVE (Oh the irony) GK players alright par for the course for someone who probably played AGAINST 5th ed GK. Nothing new.

"Grey Knights have been challenging to play in every edition, this one is no different."

If by challenging you mean that key aspects of the army are implemented in a flawed manner on historically below average units yes. Flawed units that are based off OTHER flawed units like the Tac Marine or Terminators. Oppressively powerful anti-daemon rules that literally ruin the game for said players or literally go the other way and are so underwhelming in effect for the sheer penalties it carries.

It doesn't matter if the rule writers listen, because the rule writers forget GK exist half the time. You know what would have been a great rule from the start of 8th? If you could put all your units in deepstrike and half DO have to come down turn 1 in your own deployment zone, then having an all deepstrike army would be valuable. I think I might even write an email with that idea attached, hell take it even farther with an additional rule saying that if your opponent has elected to set up no models on board during deployment their deployment zone is 6 inches smaller to represent the lack of presence. You know what would have been nice? Purifiers having 2 attacks instead of their smite being nerfed. The rule of 1 being lifted under certain army conditions would have been nice as well.

Chaos has never had the actual rules of an edition work AGAINST you. The worse off you've ever been is that you get hatred or fear on the same unit from 3 different rules while paying a cost for it, WHILE having a lackluster codex where you ask "Well why do the Loyalist have X but we don't? Did we chuck all our assault cannons out the airlock when we defected?".

Lets return to my first point. We did talk about GK, we know they aren't good, we know they are workable, but if any baseline codex is a porta-potty then we're a damn hole in the ground. Yea our 'hole in the ground' codex serves its purpose, but don't try to sell me the idea that it is anything but a hole in the ground and that the fact after 1 remodel (Chapter Approved) it is still a fething hole in the ground. Yea I am negative to such an extent I might be a 2nd coming of Martel, but if you want me to work with you on your army I'll be happy to; just don't expect me to glad I have leaves to wipe with.


That's a lot of words wasted on someone who already said he's not responding to your garbage. Didn't read it.

   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 techsoldaten wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
If you think we actually spent 53 pages NOT dicussing how to make GK works then your brain is in a worse state than the GK codex.


What I think is you are putting a lot of energy trying to get me to argue with you.

 Quickjager wrote:
We already know what works, we already know wargear is best for X enemy, we know because between the twenty-something players who have actually contributed we can hash out a good gameplan. How about we look at you instead.

"Most of the conversations about GK center on competitive players whining about not having silver-bullet copy-and-paste lists that place reliably in the top 10 at events. This says something about players more than the army."

Okay character attacks on COMPETITIVE (Oh the irony) GK players alright par for the course for someone who probably played AGAINST 5th ed GK. Nothing new.

"Grey Knights have been challenging to play in every edition, this one is no different."

If by challenging you mean that key aspects of the army are implemented in a flawed manner on historically below average units yes. Flawed units that are based off OTHER flawed units like the Tac Marine or Terminators. Oppressively powerful anti-daemon rules that literally ruin the game for said players or literally go the other way and are so underwhelming in effect for the sheer penalties it carries.

It doesn't matter if the rule writers listen, because the rule writers forget GK exist half the time. You know what would have been a great rule from the start of 8th? If you could put all your units in deepstrike and half DO have to come down turn 1 in your own deployment zone, then having an all deepstrike army would be valuable. I think I might even write an email with that idea attached, hell take it even farther with an additional rule saying that if your opponent has elected to set up no models on board during deployment their deployment zone is 6 inches smaller to represent the lack of presence. You know what would have been nice? Purifiers having 2 attacks instead of their smite being nerfed. The rule of 1 being lifted under certain army conditions would have been nice as well.

Chaos has never had the actual rules of an edition work AGAINST you. The worse off you've ever been is that you get hatred or fear on the same unit from 3 different rules while paying a cost for it, WHILE having a lackluster codex where you ask "Well why do the Loyalist have X but we don't? Did we chuck all our assault cannons out the airlock when we defected?".

Lets return to my first point. We did talk about GK, we know they aren't good, we know they are workable, but if any baseline codex is a porta-potty then we're a damn hole in the ground. Yea our 'hole in the ground' codex serves its purpose, but don't try to sell me the idea that it is anything but a hole in the ground and that the fact after 1 remodel (Chapter Approved) it is still a fething hole in the ground. Yea I am negative to such an extent I might be a 2nd coming of Martel, but if you want me to work with you on your army I'll be happy to; just don't expect me to glad I have leaves to wipe with.


That's a lot of words wasted on someone who already said he's not responding to your garbage. Didn't read it.


Perhaps you didn't, but I did and I think he's right.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Audustum wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
If you think we actually spent 53 pages NOT dicussing how to make GK works then your brain is in a worse state than the GK codex.


What I think is you are putting a lot of energy trying to get me to argue with you.

 Quickjager wrote:
We already know what works, we already know wargear is best for X enemy, we know because between the twenty-something players who have actually contributed we can hash out a good gameplan. How about we look at you instead.

"Most of the conversations about GK center on competitive players whining about not having silver-bullet copy-and-paste lists that place reliably in the top 10 at events. This says something about players more than the army."

Okay character attacks on COMPETITIVE (Oh the irony) GK players alright par for the course for someone who probably played AGAINST 5th ed GK. Nothing new.

"Grey Knights have been challenging to play in every edition, this one is no different."

If by challenging you mean that key aspects of the army are implemented in a flawed manner on historically below average units yes. Flawed units that are based off OTHER flawed units like the Tac Marine or Terminators. Oppressively powerful anti-daemon rules that literally ruin the game for said players or literally go the other way and are so underwhelming in effect for the sheer penalties it carries.

It doesn't matter if the rule writers listen, because the rule writers forget GK exist half the time. You know what would have been a great rule from the start of 8th? If you could put all your units in deepstrike and half DO have to come down turn 1 in your own deployment zone, then having an all deepstrike army would be valuable. I think I might even write an email with that idea attached, hell take it even farther with an additional rule saying that if your opponent has elected to set up no models on board during deployment their deployment zone is 6 inches smaller to represent the lack of presence. You know what would have been nice? Purifiers having 2 attacks instead of their smite being nerfed. The rule of 1 being lifted under certain army conditions would have been nice as well.

Chaos has never had the actual rules of an edition work AGAINST you. The worse off you've ever been is that you get hatred or fear on the same unit from 3 different rules while paying a cost for it, WHILE having a lackluster codex where you ask "Well why do the Loyalist have X but we don't? Did we chuck all our assault cannons out the airlock when we defected?".

Lets return to my first point. We did talk about GK, we know they aren't good, we know they are workable, but if any baseline codex is a porta-potty then we're a damn hole in the ground. Yea our 'hole in the ground' codex serves its purpose, but don't try to sell me the idea that it is anything but a hole in the ground and that the fact after 1 remodel (Chapter Approved) it is still a fething hole in the ground. Yea I am negative to such an extent I might be a 2nd coming of Martel, but if you want me to work with you on your army I'll be happy to; just don't expect me to glad I have leaves to wipe with.


That's a lot of words wasted on someone who already said he's not responding to your garbage. Didn't read it.


Perhaps you didn't, but I did and I think he's right.


Ditto.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
If you think we actually spent 53 pages NOT dicussing how to make GK works then your brain is in a worse state than the GK codex.


What I think is you are putting a lot of energy trying to get me to argue with you.

 Quickjager wrote:
We already know what works, we already know wargear is best for X enemy, we know because between the twenty-something players who have actually contributed we can hash out a good gameplan. How about we look at you instead.

"Most of the conversations about GK center on competitive players whining about not having silver-bullet copy-and-paste lists that place reliably in the top 10 at events. This says something about players more than the army."

Okay character attacks on COMPETITIVE (Oh the irony) GK players alright par for the course for someone who probably played AGAINST 5th ed GK. Nothing new.

"Grey Knights have been challenging to play in every edition, this one is no different."

If by challenging you mean that key aspects of the army are implemented in a flawed manner on historically below average units yes. Flawed units that are based off OTHER flawed units like the Tac Marine or Terminators. Oppressively powerful anti-daemon rules that literally ruin the game for said players or literally go the other way and are so underwhelming in effect for the sheer penalties it carries.

It doesn't matter if the rule writers listen, because the rule writers forget GK exist half the time. You know what would have been a great rule from the start of 8th? If you could put all your units in deepstrike and half DO have to come down turn 1 in your own deployment zone, then having an all deepstrike army would be valuable. I think I might even write an email with that idea attached, hell take it even farther with an additional rule saying that if your opponent has elected to set up no models on board during deployment their deployment zone is 6 inches smaller to represent the lack of presence. You know what would have been nice? Purifiers having 2 attacks instead of their smite being nerfed. The rule of 1 being lifted under certain army conditions would have been nice as well.

Chaos has never had the actual rules of an edition work AGAINST you. The worse off you've ever been is that you get hatred or fear on the same unit from 3 different rules while paying a cost for it, WHILE having a lackluster codex where you ask "Well why do the Loyalist have X but we don't? Did we chuck all our assault cannons out the airlock when we defected?".

Lets return to my first point. We did talk about GK, we know they aren't good, we know they are workable, but if any baseline codex is a porta-potty then we're a damn hole in the ground. Yea our 'hole in the ground' codex serves its purpose, but don't try to sell me the idea that it is anything but a hole in the ground and that the fact after 1 remodel (Chapter Approved) it is still a fething hole in the ground. Yea I am negative to such an extent I might be a 2nd coming of Martel, but if you want me to work with you on your army I'll be happy to; just don't expect me to glad I have leaves to wipe with.


That's a lot of words wasted on someone who already said he's not responding to your garbage. Didn't read it.


Perhaps you didn't, but I did and I think he's right.


Ditto.

Yep. 100% agree.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

Well, my point was the negativity was causing players to give up on the army. This was demonstrated by various comments in this thread.

That point was somehow transformed into the rant from QuickJaeger about Storm Ravens, NDKs and the sorry state of Terminators. His diatribes are meaningless, since all those points have been made ad nauseum.

It's nice that you all agree with his rant, but what exactly did I say that everyone finds so objectionable?

I mean, I give everyone points for finding the flaws in the army, but that stops being constructive after 2500 posts.

   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

It’s objectionable to tell players who legitimately like an army, it’s fluff, and have been playing it for 4 editions that “they aren’t doing it right” or they need to “open their minds”. Sorry, but the posters in this thread are THE subject matter experts on Grey Knights; not you, not Reece Robbins, not any random person who thinks we complain too much.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in de
Mindless Spore Mine





 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, my point was the negativity was causing players to give up on the army. This was demonstrated by various comments in this thread.

That point was somehow transformed into the rant from QuickJaeger about Storm Ravens, NDKs and the sorry state of Terminators. His diatribes are meaningless, since all those points have been made ad nauseum.

It's nice that you all agree with his rant, but what exactly did I say that everyone finds so objectionable?

I mean, I give everyone points for finding the flaws in the army, but that stops being constructive after 2500 posts.


I wouldnt say that the negativity this thread causes players to lose all hope and quitting the army

Most serious or semi serious players can see their GK army massively underperforming on the field, and they are only getting their feelings confirmed here

nobody who plays GK semi seriously is gonna come here and expects everyone to tell them how cool / good our army performs right now
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







If any GK player here in any thread thinks I am truly being too negative please tell me. I don't want to ruin luster of the army for you; hell this is still MY army I won't ever sell off all of my GK models. I really like the lore, the aesthetic, the concept of their playstyle.

I'll work with you in pm or such on a list suited for your local meta. There are few things as fun as getting in the face of an opponent and being a pain in the ass with a small 3 man unit of Paladins that just really refuses to die, or seeing the sheer incredulity on your opponent's face when shunting then successfully charging a unit of interceptors onto an objective who then BARELY kill enough enemy models for you to have the control of it for the win.

Hope we get what we deserve eventually, whether that be cheers or jeers.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in nz
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, my point was the negativity was causing players to give up on the army. This was demonstrated by various comments in this thread.

That point was somehow transformed into the rant from QuickJaeger about Storm Ravens, NDKs and the sorry state of Terminators. His diatribes are meaningless, since all those points have been made ad nauseum.

It's nice that you all agree with his rant, but what exactly did I say that everyone finds so objectionable?

I mean, I give everyone points for finding the flaws in the army, but that stops being constructive after 2500 posts.


You called his perfectly valid post 'garbage' while admitting to not even reading it.

Talk about non-constructive. If you're ignoring QJ thats fine but don't make inflammatory comments and then play the victim.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

 FFridge wrote:
I wouldnt say that the negativity this thread causes players to lose all hope and quitting the army

Most serious or semi serious players can see their GK army massively underperforming on the field, and they are only getting their feelings confirmed here

nobody who plays GK semi seriously is gonna come here and expects everyone to tell them how cool / good our army performs right now


Not going to go through all the quotes, but this one is one I responded to.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/727042.page#9943824

If you're going to ignore these kinds of comments, fine, but pretending they don't exist is silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spartacus wrote:
You called his perfectly valid post 'garbage' while admitting to not even reading it.

Talk about non-constructive. If you're ignoring QJ thats fine but don't make inflammatory comments and then play the victim.


I'm not playing a victim. Please see my previous post about not engaging in purely negative dialogue about the army here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/727042.page#9943885

QuickJaeger took that as an assault on every other post in the thread and claimed I was mocking him. Not sure why that obligates me to read his rants, which are really just summaries of every gripe that's already been brought up about Grey Knights.

Again, it's nice that a group of people can constantly repeat every flaw with the Codex. When it turns off other players, it stops being constructive. The sheer volume of complaints in this thread is oppressive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 03:39:05


   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, my point was the negativity was causing players to give up on the army. This was demonstrated by various comments in this thread.

That point was somehow transformed into the rant from QuickJaeger about Storm Ravens, NDKs and the sorry state of Terminators. His diatribes are meaningless, since all those points have been made ad nauseum.

It's nice that you all agree with his rant, but what exactly did I say that everyone finds so objectionable?

I mean, I give everyone points for finding the flaws in the army, but that stops being constructive after 2500 posts.


The point is its nice to try and stay positive, but you're not saying that. You're basically saying we should make up positive things to say, which is just asinine. Its perfectly valid to call a spade a spade. If the only thing to say and discuss about the codex is how not-nice it is, then that is a valid thing.

Yes, he may be just repeating whats already been said. But there is nothing wrong with that if that is all there is to say.

As for giving up, negative rants aren't going to make fans give up on this army. Not the ones who are still sticking around. Anybody with higher standards would have fled the army years ago. We're just gonna bear the pain of a crappy codex cycle till GW eventually fixes it. Many of us remember the last time the codex was garbage so its a familiar feeling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 06:09:10


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Foolproof Falcon Pilot




East of England

The quality of the Codex is what's putting people off the army, not the complaints it has generated. Personally I was puttimg together a reiver/strike squad conversion and working on a modded gmdk when the faq dropped, and they've been abandoned in favour of other things. That's not the fault of people on this forum.
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





 FFridge wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
You have totally opened m fething eyes mate. Good on you for proving me wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its almost like you ignored players want to actually play with something else besides Stormravens and GMDK.

Shame on them for wanting terminators to be better than trash.




Note my point about not engaging in purely negative dialogue about the army.

Nice example of race-to-the-bottom thinking. Grey Knights are so bad there's no reason even to discuss what might work. Anything that doesn't agree with this outlook is insensitive to those who can't use their favored unit. So just scream and froth at the mouth and the magic outrage fairy will get around to making it all better. Or something.

No wonder people believe GK are hopeless.

I played CSMs for a long time and know what it's like when the rules work are designed to work against you. Grey Knights are about where Chaos was in 6th edition after the Eldar Codex hit.

Unlike 6th edition, there's a rules team that registers constructive feedback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'd love to watch this but I don't think that I can take 2 hours of those two guys. Is there some way to get a summary/break down?


They are a little exuberant, but I appreciate them for doing this.

The Eldar army features a lot of Wave Serpents, Yrvane, Guardians, and other units. The GK army is built around Storm Ravens, Drago, Interceptors, NDKs and Celestine.

Eldar go first. Turn one doesn't go all that well for the GK player. Turn two, the Eldar kill Celestine, then the GK player kills about a third of the Eldar army. Turn three, there's a lot of psychic shenanigans.

The GK player was using the beta rules for smite, and applying them wrong - I think. It was being used as a minus to cast, not an increase to the warp charge. The Eldar player denied like 4 smites in a single turn, and it had an impact on the game.

Eventually, the Eldar won, but they were reduced to a Farseer and a few models. There was a fateful charge that did not work out with Drago, had it happened GK would most likely have won.



And the major problem is that we cannot take Celestine in an Auxiliary Deatchment anymore as we cannot mix with the new Rule

"All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot
be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids,"
*edit* Also the old Beta Smite Rules .. this was way before the FAQ

That whole "it was so close" Army is not usable anymore with the new FAQ rules so the point that "it was close versus Ynnari" is moot


You can still take her, the detachment will have sororitas keyword, otherwise you couldn't never take auxilairy detachment


 
   
Made in de
Mindless Spore Mine





 GuardStrider wrote:
 FFridge wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
You have totally opened m fething eyes mate. Good on you for proving me wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its almost like you ignored players want to actually play with something else besides Stormravens and GMDK.

Shame on them for wanting terminators to be better than trash.




Note my point about not engaging in purely negative dialogue about the army.

Nice example of race-to-the-bottom thinking. Grey Knights are so bad there's no reason even to discuss what might work. Anything that doesn't agree with this outlook is insensitive to those who can't use their favored unit. So just scream and froth at the mouth and the magic outrage fairy will get around to making it all better. Or something.

No wonder people believe GK are hopeless.

I played CSMs for a long time and know what it's like when the rules work are designed to work against you. Grey Knights are about where Chaos was in 6th edition after the Eldar Codex hit.

Unlike 6th edition, there's a rules team that registers constructive feedback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'd love to watch this but I don't think that I can take 2 hours of those two guys. Is there some way to get a summary/break down?


They are a little exuberant, but I appreciate them for doing this.

The Eldar army features a lot of Wave Serpents, Yrvane, Guardians, and other units. The GK army is built around Storm Ravens, Drago, Interceptors, NDKs and Celestine.

Eldar go first. Turn one doesn't go all that well for the GK player. Turn two, the Eldar kill Celestine, then the GK player kills about a third of the Eldar army. Turn three, there's a lot of psychic shenanigans.

The GK player was using the beta rules for smite, and applying them wrong - I think. It was being used as a minus to cast, not an increase to the warp charge. The Eldar player denied like 4 smites in a single turn, and it had an impact on the game.

Eventually, the Eldar won, but they were reduced to a Farseer and a few models. There was a fateful charge that did not work out with Drago, had it happened GK would most likely have won.



And the major problem is that we cannot take Celestine in an Auxiliary Deatchment anymore as we cannot mix with the new Rule

"All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot
be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids,"
*edit* Also the old Beta Smite Rules .. this was way before the FAQ

That whole "it was so close" Army is not usable anymore with the new FAQ rules so the point that "it was close versus Ynnari" is moot


You can still take her, the detachment will have sororitas keyword, otherwise you couldn't never take auxilairy detachment


Yeah but no Grey Knight has the Adeptus Soronitas Keyword .. you would need an Aux Detachment entirely out of Celestine alone .. which is -1 CP

Is Celestine really worth that -1 CP alone?

In a zero sum game it would make more sense to use a different army to fill a batallion and then add grey knights as a spear head / vanguard / whatevs batallion if you want to play them and your army will always be better than a majority Grey Knight Army
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





You said we couldn't take Celestine in an Auxiliary Datchment, I just was pointing out that you could. Not arguing if she is worth the -1 or not

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 10:50:13



 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




You can just take her in a patrol detachment and not lose any CP. The army is still battle-forged since you can use "imperium" as an army wide key word.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Not since the FAQ you can't.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Sure you can. You can't mix keywords in a detachment but you can do it between detachments,

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755410.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 11:54:48


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Sure you can. You can't mix keywords in a detachment but you can do it between detachments,

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755410.page


You would need some Sororitas troops to go with her.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

 Grey Templar wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, my point was the negativity was causing players to give up on the army. This was demonstrated by various comments in this thread.

That point was somehow transformed into the rant from QuickJaeger about Storm Ravens, NDKs and the sorry state of Terminators. His diatribes are meaningless, since all those points have been made ad nauseum.

It's nice that you all agree with his rant, but what exactly did I say that everyone finds so objectionable?

I mean, I give everyone points for finding the flaws in the army, but that stops being constructive after 2500 posts.


The point is its nice to try and stay positive, but you're not saying that. You're basically saying we should make up positive things to say, which is just asinine. Its perfectly valid to call a spade a spade. If the only thing to say and discuss about the codex is how not-nice it is, then that is a valid thing.

Yes, he may be just repeating whats already been said. But there is nothing wrong with that if that is all there is to say.

As for giving up, negative rants aren't going to make fans give up on this army. Not the ones who are still sticking around. Anybody with higher standards would have fled the army years ago. We're just gonna bear the pain of a crappy codex cycle till GW eventually fixes it. Many of us remember the last time the codex was garbage so its a familiar feeling.


No, I did not say that and would never tell you what to do.

What I did say is players should seek out alternate opinions on Grey Knights, look at how other players are using them, watch battle reports, ask questions on forums, share your army lists, and stop engaging in purely negative dialogue about the army.

Which, of course, means I was being insensitive to poor QuickJaeger. Any time someone is not negative enough in this thread, people like you pour onto them.

So, I am not trying to tell you what to do, feel free to make sure the world knows how discontent you are with everything and keep driving people away. Stop trying to tell me what to do and making up things I said.

   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Spoletta wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Sure you can. You can't mix keywords in a detachment but you can do it between detachments,

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755410.page


You would need some Sororitas troops to go with her.


That's why I suggested a patrol. Although a vanguard or outrider wouldn't be too bad either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 14:29:08


 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





 techsoldaten wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, my point was the negativity was causing players to give up on the army. This was demonstrated by various comments in this thread.

That point was somehow transformed into the rant from QuickJaeger about Storm Ravens, NDKs and the sorry state of Terminators. His diatribes are meaningless, since all those points have been made ad nauseum.

It's nice that you all agree with his rant, but what exactly did I say that everyone finds so objectionable?

I mean, I give everyone points for finding the flaws in the army, but that stops being constructive after 2500 posts.


The point is its nice to try and stay positive, but you're not saying that. You're basically saying we should make up positive things to say, which is just asinine. Its perfectly valid to call a spade a spade. If the only thing to say and discuss about the codex is how not-nice it is, then that is a valid thing.

Yes, he may be just repeating whats already been said. But there is nothing wrong with that if that is all there is to say.

As for giving up, negative rants aren't going to make fans give up on this army. Not the ones who are still sticking around. Anybody with higher standards would have fled the army years ago. We're just gonna bear the pain of a crappy codex cycle till GW eventually fixes it. Many of us remember the last time the codex was garbage so its a familiar feeling.


No, I did not say that and would never tell you what to do.

What I did say is players should seek out alternate opinions on Grey Knights, look at how other players are using them, watch battle reports, ask questions on forums, share your army lists, and stop engaging in purely negative dialogue about the army.

Which, of course, means I was being insensitive to poor QuickJaeger. Any time someone is not negative enough in this thread, people like you pour onto them.

So, I am not trying to tell you what to do, feel free to make sure the world knows how discontent you are with everything and keep driving people away. Stop trying to tell me what to do and making up things I said.


The issue is stormravens and dreadknights really doesn't feel like a GK army. It feels like Stormravens and Dreadknights. I want to be able to play with more than 3 adequate units (intercessor, GMDK, Stormraven) especially when 1 of those units isn't even GK specific and gets nothing from GK (the stormraven obviously) There should be more than 1 way to play any army. Period.

Also I didn't get a chance to watch the video, but from a couple comments here I got the impression celestine was mixed in with the Grey Knights in a detachment. If that's the case Grey Knights would still have been casting smites with penalties. The smite rule says that anyone who isn't affected by the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers rule is affected. The brotherhood of psyker rule is our detachment specific rule that we get only if every unit in the detachment is GK. That's ignoring the fact that the new beta rules sate Celestine HAS to be in a separate detachment.


And if people want to get into GK they SHOULD know what they're getting into because they're about to spend a good bit of money and it would suck to buy a lot of terminators or something just to find there is only one viable GK army. If they don't like that and are "scared off" then I'm glad I saved them money they may have regretted spending. I don't regret my GK but I am burnt out and I'm gonna switch armies for a time.

There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov

In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo

He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

“Alternate opinions” on GK? From whom? Armchair quarterbacks who tell us how to play OUR army? We are the GK players...and we’ve had a crappy codex for years (except for 5th) . No one is being “driven away”, we’re just holding out going for better rules...someday. No offense to you personally, but to save time here’s the way this current conversation typically goes:
GK player: our army has some major problems
Non-GK player: you have lots of deepstrike and psykers!
GK: true, but our army has a lot of gaps
Non-GK: yeah but...
GK: *gives reasons why every suggestion the non-GK makes doesn’t work due to math, the meta, and experience*
Non-GK: you guys need to stop complaining

We have tried to optimize our army, and heavily analyzed the codex to do so. We have a vested interest in trying literally everything, and if you look through this thread you’ll see precisely that. Simply saying “be positive” does nothing for us, and identifying weaknesses does help us figure out a way forward.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






When are we going to get some Grey Knights transfer sheets. That's what I want to know.

 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




That would be nice. I can't paint worth a darn but I can apply decals fairly well.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






We have to use standard space marine vehicles but we have no access to transfer sheets as a full blown codex army.

Oh well. Maybe someone will make some one day.

What do you think about 2 3 man paladin squads and a doomglaive inside a stormraven?

The concern is that if it dies on a 1 entire models are removed which I do not like. Not sure how durable the stormravens are never actually used one.

Trying to figure out a way to get something up the board that allows me to still take strikes for the 5 command points.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Dreadknights and Stormravens aren't even particularly good, they're the best we have but will still struggle to win games.

Here's the problem, techsoldaten:
1. we all see the same numbers and know we're mathematically disadvantaged.
2. we all look for clever tricks and combos that we can use to win despite that handicap
3. we all see that we have nothing remarkable in strategems, relics, warlord traits, chapter tactics etc.
4. the rest of us shrug and say, "maybe something will change in the future" while you say "POSITIVE THINKING can overcome any odds!"

It's a small codex with very limited options in units and hardly any of the new 8th edition features. We're not idiots, we can quickly take in all the information and know the score.

Compare the wealth of relics, strategems, warlord traits and regiments that IG get to our book and you'll see that if the Guard had a substantial nerf from published errata it would be quite reasonable to say to them "Huh, well what novel combination of interesting rules is best now?"

Frankly, any innovation you're looking for here would need to come from bringing a detachment of another faction.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
No, I did not say that and would never tell you what to do.

What I did say is players should seek out alternate opinions on Grey Knights, look at how other players are using them, watch battle reports, ask questions on forums, share your army lists, and stop engaging in purely negative dialogue about the army.

Which, of course, means I was being insensitive to poor QuickJaeger. Any time someone is not negative enough in this thread, people like you pour onto them.

So, I am not trying to tell you what to do, feel free to make sure the world knows how discontent you are with everything and keep driving people away. Stop trying to tell me what to do and making up things I said.


The issue is stormravens and dreadknights really doesn't feel like a GK army. It feels like Stormravens and Dreadknights. I want to be able to play with more than 3 adequate units (intercessor, GMDK, Stormraven) especially when 1 of those units isn't even GK specific and gets nothing from GK (the stormraven obviously) There should be more than 1 way to play any army. Period.

Also I didn't get a chance to watch the video, but from a couple comments here I got the impression celestine was mixed in with the Grey Knights in a detachment. If that's the case Grey Knights would still have been casting smites with penalties. The smite rule says that anyone who isn't affected by the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers rule is affected. The brotherhood of psyker rule is our detachment specific rule that we get only if every unit in the detachment is GK. That's ignoring the fact that the new beta rules sate Celestine HAS to be in a separate detachment.


And if people want to get into GK they SHOULD know what they're getting into because they're about to spend a good bit of money and it would suck to buy a lot of terminators or something just to find there is only one viable GK army. If they don't like that and are "scared off" then I'm glad I saved them money they may have regretted spending. I don't regret my GK but I am burnt out and I'm gonna switch armies for a time.


In response, this is a tactics thread. It occupies a very prominent space on the site and it's one of the first things people see when looking for info on Grey Knights.

There's a line between educating people on the downsides of the Codex and indoctrinating people in a mantra of pure hopelessness. Recycling the same points over and over again, attacking people for using language that is not bleak enough, wrapping responses in rambling rants that take 5 minutes to read... that has nothing to do with educating people about what they are getting into.

I don't see much discussion about tactics in this thread. I see a bunch of people curating their pains with the current edition and jumping all over anyone who doesn't agree.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 greyknight12 wrote:
“Alternate opinions” on GK? From whom? Armchair quarterbacks who tell us how to play OUR army?


Your army?

 greyknight12 wrote:
We are the GK players...and we’ve had a crappy codex for years (except for 5th) . No one is being “driven away”, we’re just holding out going for better rules...someday.


You are not 'the' Grey Knight players. You are a loose collection of people come together in an online forum to complain very loudly about a set of rules under the banner of 'tactics.' You managed to assemble an encyclopedia of complaints and put it on display in response to the most casual observation.

 greyknight12 wrote:
No offense to you personally, but to save time here’s the way this current conversation typically goes:
GK player: our army has some major problems
Non-GK player: you have lots of deepstrike and psykers!
GK: true, but our army has a lot of gaps
Non-GK: yeah but...
GK: *gives reasons why every suggestion the non-GK makes doesn’t work due to math, the meta, and experience*
Non-GK: you guys need to stop complaining


I agree, there is clearly a problem amongst some people in this thread. They react to any post lacking a sufficient level of pessimism as though someone is mocking them.

The natural reaction would be to ask you to stop complaining. What you might not understand is no one is saying the rules are any good. They are saying conversations with a talking pain magnet are uncomfortable.

 greyknight12 wrote:
We have tried to optimize our army, and heavily analyzed the codex to do so. We have a vested interest in trying literally everything, and if you look through this thread you’ll see precisely that. Simply saying “be positive” does nothing for us, and identifying weaknesses does help us figure out a way forward.


I've read just about every post in this thread and was clear on the defects a long way back.

The case has been made for the flaws in the army. The fact they need to be repeated with the frequency they are, and to the exclusion of most other conversation, serves no purpose. Hence I suggested not engaging in discussions that are purely negative.

You would have to explain to me how that means you are being told to be positive, I really don't get it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 16:51:41


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Sorry if this question has been asked already but can I deepstrike a GMNDK into my own deployment zone and then GOI him up the field with my strike squads shunt or does this fall under the "no warptime from deepstrike" clause?
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

Lanlaorn wrote:
Dreadknights and Stormravens aren't even particularly good, they're the best we have but will still struggle to win games.

Here's the problem, techsoldaten:
1. we all see the same numbers and know we're mathematically disadvantaged.
2. we all look for clever tricks and combos that we can use to win despite that handicap
3. we all see that we have nothing remarkable in strategems, relics, warlord traits, chapter tactics etc.
4. the rest of us shrug and say, "maybe something will change in the future" while you say "POSITIVE THINKING can overcome any odds!"

It's a small codex with very limited options in units and hardly any of the new 8th edition features. We're not idiots, we can quickly take in all the information and know the score.

Compare the wealth of relics, strategems, warlord traits and regiments that IG get to our book and you'll see that if the Guard had a substantial nerf from published errata it would be quite reasonable to say to them "Huh, well what novel combination of interesting rules is best now?"

Frankly, any innovation you're looking for here would need to come from bringing a detachment of another faction.


That's not the problem, that's the challenge.

I'm not looking for some innovation and don't believe the rules are particularly good.

I'm building a Grey Knights army and would like to be able to discuss it without being dogpiled by the cult of doom that's sprang up around the Codex. The signal to noise ratio is just way off, it's hard to say anything without 10 people squealing about their dissatisfaction. The hyperbole is sometimes off the charts.

   
 
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