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Has anyone experimented with using guilliman for his +1 charge bubble on an alpha strike? With an 8" move, D6+1 advance and a 12" bubble he can project his aura a minimum of 22" (before any rerolls) out from your deployment zone, meaning that you'll get the benefit on first turn 9" charges as long as your opponent is 31" or less from your deployment zone. Add in a GK warlord with FTTF and you now have a 66% chance of making the charge vs. 47% with GK alone (if my math is correct).
Downsides are that I hate primarchs (for fluff reasons) and for basically the same points you can get 3 5-man interceptor squads, which depending on what else you drop may result in an equivalent number of first turn charges and gives you more deepstrike slots as well.

If you have elite slots to burn you could always throw in a few units of servitors if you want to stay pure GK and maximize your reserve potential. Unfortunately as soon as you give them weapons to make them more useful they end up costing almost as much as strikes.

We had a couple players with GK as primary do well at NOVA (Tyler Devries and Brad Townsend), anyone know what they were running?

I've considered a knight as well, but the problem of knights as has been said is there is ALOT of stuff in the game that can one-shot them, and they don't pack nearly enough firepower for their cost. For example: for 390 pts you can get the cheapest knight, the CC only version; and for the same cost you can get 2 dreadknights with teleportors, gatling psilencers, and greatswords. In CC and durability-wise they are about equal, but the dreadknights have 24 shots, can deepstrike, and boost their invul to a 4++. And they fill slots in an army that struggles to get multiple detachments. A stormraven puts out very similar damage for 326 points, and has much more mobility.
Knights are my second army and I love them, but without enough firepower to level important units and no ability to hold objectives they're in a rough spot (especially playing them pure).

Anyone else notice we lost twin autocannons on our dreadnoughts with the codex?

Another question for the group: how do people feel about warding staves? Aside from the potentially hilarious option of giving every model a 5++ in CC (and basically taking us back to a Daemonhunters-era nemesis weapon) is it worth adding one to power armor squads to try and stop rouge power fists and such? On terminator types it seems to be a decent idea with the caveat that wound allocation will get him shot to death if the stave guy makes it out of combat alive. S6 AP-1 seems to be a decent trade for losing an extra S4 AP-2 attack, didn't know if anyone else had an opinion.

I had a game against mortarion yesterday, he charged at me and I surrounded him with interceptors and dreadknights. Took him down to 5 wounds with smite and psilencers, then assaulted him with dreadknights. He died.
If you're doing allies, I'd recommend interceptors over strikes simply for the mobility: for 4 more points per model you get a 12" move and a once per game shunt move.

Fantome wrote:
It does doesn't it, it's not like our army particularly needs more bolter shots but it does sound like a good plan. Especially if you've also got it loaded with purifiers for d6 mortal wounds the following turn.

If you're going to do that, then load 2-3 purifier squads in it for 2-3D6 mortal wounds..the tank holds 16. Deepstrike a brother-captain in for extended range and you'll put Morty to shame. Of course, it'll also cost 3 times more than the daemon primarch but hey it's a full vanguard detachment on its own.

I played a local RTT to test out a "silver tide" list:

Battalion
2 GMDK - Psilencer, teleporter, sword/hammer (one had hammer, other had sword)
5 5-man strike squads - psilencer, falchions
Outrider
Voldus
3 10-man interceptor squads - psilencer, falchions (combat-squaded, I just didn't have enough justicar models at the time)

Used NOVA missions. I went 2-1, first game was against a mix of TLAC dreadnoughts, basilisks, and stormtalons (win), second game was against bikers, guilliman, and stormtalons (loss), and third game was against harlequins (win). Game 1 was a lesson in what smite and 280ish S4 shots can do, especially with d3 damage. I lost the second game becasue I was dumb and dropped everyone inside 12" of his castle; I underestimated how tough bikers would be (especially with cover) and how deadly the stormtalons would be with guilliman support in addition to failing all but one charge turn 1. Game 3 I was able to kite and shoot down the transports, and either shred the troupes with bolters or countercharge them.
Big takeaways are to treat the list like a school of pirahna, each unit is individually deadly and the mobility of interceptors combined with gate on the heavy hitters and strikes gives alot of mobility. It's still taken me awhile to get used to how good my shooting is, but it means you can shoot the choppier stuff and still out-chop the shooty stuff. The GMDK are more than enough punch to take down knights and the like. I think a variant of this list has alot of potential, especially with the new ITC missions.
I'm working on another variant that drops a GMDK and some interceptors for a pair of stormravens; we'll see if dropping from 11 to 8 squads works with the added firepower and if multimeltas and stormstrike missiles make up for the loss of a GMDK. I'll also lose a command point cause everything will be in a battalion detachment, but that's not huge.

With their 4++ (3++ with sanctuary or strategems), GMDK are probably a better bet than an Imperial knight. I’ve had good results with them shrugging off lascannons, plus their re-roll ones bubble and FTTF are a good force multiplier. With your paladins, I would drop them all down to 3 man units, that way you maximize the number of models with a 2+ WS. It will also give you more board control and 9 2+/5++ wounds is difficult enough to shift, especially with your bigger stuff bearing down on your opponent’s high value units.

Just cast sanctuary instead.

 TheMostWize wrote:
It's not that psilencers are needed. It was more since the points cost was so low the upgrade was worth it. I am going to give the 3 man squads a shot and see how it goes.

Just remember that paladins pay the "terminator" cost for weapons, so it's 10 pts vs. 4 pts for the power armored guys.

I've personally been wondering about spamming paladins myself and going for pure survivability in my list; for 2.5X the points a paladin has 6X the survivability of a PAGK against small arms (with no AP) and an invulnerable save. We can't hit as hard force on force as anyone anyway, so MSU and holding objectives seems to be a reasonable strategy; our units individually hit hard enough not to get bullied off an objective by anything insignificant. Just thinking out loud here:
Comparison (Paladins vs Strike squads)
-165 pts Paladin squad
9 T4 2+/5++ wounds
6/12 bolter shots
9 CC/12 falchion attacks
1 smite/santic power

-168 pts Strike squad
8 T4 3+ wounds
16/32 bolter shots
8 CC/16 falchion attacks
1.5 smite/santic power (assuming 5-man squads)

The strike squad has the advantage of being OBSEC as well. It has slightly more melee power when you equip falchions, and twice the ranged attacks. The paladins are over twice as durable against AP0 weapons; however despite the invulnerable saves they can lose more capability to high damage weapons than their power armored counterparts (though D3 and less weapons end up being the same, and you have a 1/3 chance of a paladin surviving a lascannon that makes it through their 5++ due to a low damage roll). So far I've been sticking with a mix of strikes and interceptors for the flexibility and damage output, but a paladin list could definitely do well against something that doesn't have a lot of high-end firepower.

Something like relentless would be nice to have on terminators, otherwise I’m just hoping for some points cuts. I think the big problem right now is that we don’t have anyone at GW or any of their TO consultants who are enthusiastic enough about GK to give us the death guard treatment and really flesh out the fluff and army mechanics.

Since other codices are getting 4th ed rules, I definitely wouldn’t mind some Daemonhunters throwbacks:
True grit for our storm bolters (+1 attack)
Psycannons/psybolt ammo ignores invul saves
Shrouding (3D6x3=range of your weapons when shooting at GK)

Other old school options:
Orbital bombardments as heavy support choices
Inquisition in our codex
Dreadknights can shunt again
Everyone can start in reserve

There’s a lot of fluffy options for us, someone just needs to take the time and effort to port them into 8th.

Spartacus wrote:
Hey we were right! The True Grit rule is back as a stratagem!

Spoiler:

...for Space Wolves

That infuriated me so much. I feel like GW needs a staffer/consultant for each army; a veteran with the game’s best interest in mind who will take the time to help flesh out their codex. I’m not jealous of power level as much as flavor when I compare my codex to others.

On the tactics side, something I’ve toyed around with is the idea of allying in a patrol detachment of AM, then spending an AM CP to give the AM HQ a relic: specifically Kurav’s Aquilla. Then I have a chance to get CPs whenever my opponent spends one, which is far more often than my GK do.

I still haven’t figured out why custodes are cheaper than paladins.

Grey Knights is a chapter option

 daedalus wrote:

Nairul wrote:
After experiencing loss after loss lately, I've changed my perspective on the optimal pure-GK list. Drop the Paladins, the GM NDKs, the vehicles, the dreadnoughts. Drop all the expensive multi-wound models. They melt too darn fast to any semi-competitive opponent.

Instead, flood the board with 1-wound marines and characters under 10 wounds to buff them. Your opponent has no choice but to waste his high-dmg weapons on 1-wound marines. Interceptors are the best option, though I like including 3 strike squads for the Battalion CPs.

With this strategy I almost (keyword: almost) beat an Eldar player who ran too many Dark Reapers. It was fun watching him squirm.

That's consistently been the single most winning strategy for any army in 8th that I've heard of so far. Step 1. Pack more bullets. Step 2: Make those bullets better. Step 3: Drop expensive toys to make more room to repeat step 1.

I'll echo this as well, my most successful iteration of a grey knights list has been spamming power armor. My current list is 55 marines (30 interceptors, 25 strikes), Voldus, and 2 GMDK. I actually like the GMDK since they can take down Knights and other big stuff, I just keep sanctuary/stratagems on them for a 3++ and/or keep them in reserve until they can help kill things or the threats to them are dead.

Massed stormbolter is great; so are dirt cheap psilencers. The problem is that we have no cheap units, and not enough high-yield firepower. S4 is fine, but without a high strength/low AP weapon there’s not a way to get to enemy heavy armor outside of CC. And since our basic unit costs 105 pts minimum (though actually it’s our HQs that make filling out battalions hard) we don’t really have the points to play around with land raiders of our own. The reason why smite nerfs are a big deal is that outside of CC it’s the only reliable way for us to put wounds on knights and their ilk outside of CC

So guys, apparently we've been doing it all wrong:
From me, in the LVO tournament discussion (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/733325.page)

"Apologies if this isn’t the place for this, but will there be any FAQs in place for Tsons, GK, etc who have a reduced version of smite but still got shafted by the beta rules?"

Reply from Reece himself:
"@GreyKnight

Obviously if I did know of an inbound FAQ I couldn't say anything about it, sorry.

But, it may feel like a nerf but in our experience it isn't, particularly for GK. If you were relying on their baby smite to win games you were probably doing something wrong (not to be rude). We use GK loads here and rarely even cast their smite unless playing Daemons, of course.

And, in reverse, it means you are getting hit with less Smites which for an army like GK is actually a big deal as you are so low model count. It helps you more than hurts you in that scenario."

I have a strong feeling that “doing it right” involves playing your GK as allies to AM. Otherwise tournament results don’t support there being any good way to play the army.

Since Custodes are basically our army but better now, what do people think of using the vexilla defensor (on the praetor) to give our PAGK a 5++ against shooting? Might be worth it as an alpha strike defense, I don't think they can deepstrik though.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/18/adeptus-custodes-preview-part-3-elitesgw-homepage-post-2/

Second the falchions, for psychic powers don’t forget about gate of infinity!

I think something along the lines of Daemonhunters “shrouding” would go a long way, as would the addition of some extra psychic disciplines.

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Then I'd pick the 7 GMDKs there's no question in my mind it would be better than having only 2 GMDKS and 6 DKs.

Yeah 7 GMDKs is absolutely the better deal there. I just wonder if it would be at all effective.

It puts out 84 S4 D3 shots and 42 S7 AP-1 D2 shots at BS2, and is pretty good at CC. The problem is that you don’t have a lot of CP, so most will have a 4++, which still isn’t bad. I would throw hammers on a couple though. The list would struggle with morale-immune hordes, and from a lack of mobility (you can only gate one a turn), which may not be an issue depending on your game format. It would play similarly to a Custodes bike army, but without “fly” or the additional 6” of move a turn.
I have 5 DK models though so if I try it at a lower points value I’ll let you know.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
These two limitations means that's it's probably going to be much worse. GMDKs are good, but they need support. SC Bikers, otoh, don't need support.

You could, for 1864, get ELEVEN SC Bikers, all with Misericordia, 7 Hurribolts and 4 Salvos. I feel like I know who's gonna win that matchup....

Mathhammer:
Two SCBs (no mis) will do 14 wounds to a GMDK on the charge. So on T1, that's 3-4 GMDKs dead, with assaults and shooting.
One GMDK shooting will give 6 wounds to a SC, not even enough to kill one. Bleugh.

True, but I take issue with “T1”: Bikes move 14”, GK guns are 24”. Even starting at 24.5”, the bikes aren’t all going to make their 10” charge; the DKs will get one turn of shooting in. Also, you pointed out that 2 bikes kill a dreadknight, but a dreadknight *only* does 6 wounds to a 7 wound model. By the same metrics you gave the bikes, 2 dreadknights do 12 wounds to SCB, or 1.7 dead...meaning 6 bike captains die to 7 GMDKs shooting, plus there’s a potential for 3-4 mortal wounds from smite to start with. With beta character rules, they will likely shoot ones with 3++.
And in CC, there is a chance the DKs will get the charge coming in from deepstrike: 1 w/sword=5.7 wounds avg, hammer does 5 minimum but potentially higher.

I agree that shield captains will probably win if objective are a factor, and fly is a game changer but I think in this match up the GMDKs have a reasonable chance of coming out on top.

The old Nemesis weapon was a sliding scale: strikes got +2 strength, termies got +2 strength and it counted as a power weapon, Grandmasters got +2 strength and force weapon (note that in the old days power/force weapons ignored all armor saves). From 5th on everyone just got a force weapon with a different profile depending on if it was a sword, halberd, etc.
Psycannons and psybolt ammo (a character wargear upgrade) ignored invulnerable saves, but the fluff for those read a lot more like the psilencer description. In 5th they dropped the invul-ignoring but made paybolt ammo a +1 strength upgrade for a squad’s bolters. Psycannons became assault cannons with +1 strength for 5/6/7th, which makes their current profile baffling.

It would make GK better, but not by that much. They would see a lot more use as a bolt-on imperial detachment to deal with Daemons or assassinate characters, but for pure GK detachments the same threats (mainly shooting and getting bogged down in bubble wrap) would still kill them and we wouldn’t get much use out of the rule. That said, I think it’s a good way to give them a generically good ability that also really shines against Daemons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What's people's opinion on the Heavy Incinerator? It's one of few flamer weapons that can hit from Deep Strike. Too expensive for the RNG involved?

Pretty much. It’s 10 more points than a heavy psycannons, but has 1 less strength and 12” less range, and it trades a guaranteed 6 shots for heavy D6 autohits. Since we’re normally mounting them on a BS2+ platform that re-rolls 1s, the autohits don’t make up for the lower number: Heavy 6 on a moving GMDK is 4.67 hits on average, vs 3.5 from the heavy incinerator.
Basically, it’s worse than a heavy psycannon but costs more.

I thought that "Grey Knights" could take the place of "chapter" for the forgeworld stuff, but maybe I'm confused with 7th Ed IA rules.