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This came up elsewhere, and wanted to get more opinions.

If the vehicle has moved, or you deepstrike, you can't move or assault. But you can shoot.

Fleet takes the place of shooting, so can you still fleet?

Now, it says you can't move, and fleet is movement. But you also move during assault. So if 'No Movement' was meant to include *all* movement, they there was no need to include 'no assault'. Since they included the 'No assault' also, it lends credence that the 'No Movement' is only pertaining to movement phase movement, and not movement during other phases.

Or at least that is the argument presented.

What is your call?

Personally, I beleive it takes the place of ALL movement, no matter what phase movement may occur.

Deepstriking takes the place of movement in the movement phase.
You cannot make an assault move in the assault phase the turn you deepstrike.
You can shoot the turn you deepstrike.

Its not really clear if you may fleet. I think its up to a house ruling on that.

Its not clear on fleet, The vehicle moves don't apply when a vehicle is open topped (Which is why DE can disembark from a fast moving skimmer and still assault out and fleet to my understanding)

DS rules prevent any form of movement afterwards in my opinion. When it comes to fleet, best to discuss with opponents BEFORE HAND or else you can get into a seriously bad game really fast.

This issue comes up often and is a toughie, the ambiguity of the rules gives credence to both sides, neitherbeing wholly wrong or right.

Also this issue comes into play with some who believe that DAs can assault out of a drop pod because they are open topped in the vehicle description in the DA codex. (This to me is malarchy but hey...)

In the chaos codex it mentions that units with daemonic speed "must move as infantry" when disembarking.

One thing with the 'cannot move' in the vehicle disembark is that it does not have a duration. I would assume that, since there is no duration listed, it would only take effect in that phase.

If you want to go strictly RAW, then any model that disembarks from a vehicle that moved can never, ever, move again in the game.

Drop pods are open topped in the SM codex also. And the description of drop pod specifically states you can't move or assault.

The Deepstriking rule states the model may not move or assault on the turn they arrive; the model may shoot, however. Being able to shoot and being able to move instead of shooting are two completely different things.

Disembarking is treated in a similar manner - for the turn the model disembarked, it may not move or assault (unless the vehicle is open topped) but may shoot (treated as moved).

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 04/23/2007 4:35 PM
Disembarking is treated in a similar manner - for the turn the model disembarked, it may not move or assault (unless the vehicle is open topped) but may shoot (treated as moved).

Rules quote on it lasting only the turn? 

The Great Avatar,

I don't agree with that logic, as the shooting is an ACTION in the shooting PHASE.  The rules clearly indicate that deepstrikers can perofrm an ACTION in the shooting phase.  Fleet is a substitute to that ACTION, therefore you should be able to perform an ACTION during the shooting phase, whether it be actual shooting or fleet is up to the user.

However, I believe that the intent of the "no movement" rule applies to ANY such movement after deepstriking.  But that certainly does not dismiss the loophole. 
It certainly deserves a clear response from the designers in some format.  Perhaps an FAQ or e-mail.  I envision this arguement to prolong itself, get heated at some point, and consequently be locked.  Keep it civil. 

 

Uhm this is simple. Deep Strike rules say the unit cannot move or assault, but can shoot. It does not say the unit cannot make an action during the move or assault phase, but can take an action during the shooting phase.

Therefore, the rules say the unit cannot move, it cannot move, no matter what phase of the game the movement takes place in.

Two different issues here.

With Deepstriking the rules are clear: Models cannot move the turn they arrive via Deep strike. No mention is made of a phase so the restriction applies to the entire turn.

With Disembarking from a vehicle there is no such restriction so units with Fleet could indeed use the ability instead of firing.

That was exactly my thinking Yakface. Thank you very much

Except the ACTION that you want to take has been specifically denied to you. So if you want to shoot, fine. Nothing says that you can't shoot. The rules do say that you can't move. It doesn't matter if you're doing it instead of shooting, it's still movement.

Not so sure about that. The rule states that "the passangers move only far enough to deploy..." which could indicate that the only movement available to a disembarking unit (from a moving transport, of course) is the 2" deployment move (though this could only refer to the Movement Phase). The rule then goes on to say that you may assault under certain conditions.

That's just one possible interpretation, though.

No Cheexsta you are interpreting the disembarking rules, for the DS rules you have to refer specifically to deep striking in which the rules are very clear that after disembarking, you are not allowed any movement or assault. They then make an allowance for firing once you have landed from a deep strike.

So while your interpretation of the disembark rules makes sense, the more restrictive deep strike rules take precedence in this case.

What Yak said is correct. I believe the intent of the rules is very clear in this case concerning "special abilities."

Yeah, but....

I agree that the DS rules and Disembarking rules read a bit differently. So I will look at them separately..

DS:
The rules read "Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not move or assault on the turn they arrive."
Lets look at the first part. "Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not move..."
There are 3 times when a model can move. During the Movement phase, during the Shooting Phase, during the Assault phase. Now the phrase "...may not move..." may apply to only one phase, or all of them.
If it applies to *all* phases, then it makes no sense to include the "..or assault.." part of the rule. If you can't move in *any* phase, you already can't assault; so why include it.
If it applies to only 'normal' movement (iow, during the movement phase) then fleet is okay, and adding "..or assault.." becomes a sensible addition to the rule.
Adding "...or assault..." seems to imply that 'move' does not refer to moving during the assault phase, and thus not during the shooting phase.


Disembark: The rule states : "...the passengers move only far enough to deploy..."
So the question comes up. Does that 'move' mean in the movement phase, or all the phases. If only the movement phase, why add the bit later about not being able to assault.
If only the movement phase; are you being consistent with the DS rules, or treating it differently?

 

It covers those units with compulsory assault moves, like Blood Claws or Templars. If it just said you cannot move, people would be charging when possible, with the arguement that the rules only prohibit movement during the movement phase.

By saying you cannot move or assault, but can shoot, you are covering all your bases. You cannot move at all and are not subject to compulsory assaults, but you can shoot, and only shoot.

 

 

Huh?

If you can't move at all, then you can't charge. You are already covering all the bases.

If it means you can't move at all, why say you can't assault? Since assaulting *means* you will be moving.

Devils advocate:

If they mention the fact that you "cannot move or assault, but you may shoot", this implies phases.  As coredump stated, why mention the assault, it INVOLVES moving.  The rule needs to be amended to read; "cannot move, fleet, or assault, but you may shoot" at the very least.  Just becasue it doesn't say phase is the same arguement used for the fact that it doesn't mention fleet.  By not mentioning it, but mentioning assault, leaves the rule open to criticism, in my opinion.  To simply dismiss this viewpoint is arrogant at best.

Ghaz, I agree the intent of the rule means only shooting and no movement whatsoever.  I am only acknowledging the weakness in the way it is worded.  I remember way back when Jervis acknowledged that there are many rules that "rules lawyers" can attack and question, but the intent of the rule should be followed by the reasonable person.  I am quite sure that the intent is no movement.  But I acknowledge that the word fleet should be included in the restriction.

If this situation came up in a game, this is how I would respond.  "You are absolutely right.  The word fleet needs to be mentioned.  They should amend it in a future FAQ or white dwarf article.  But we both know the intent of the rule is to prevent all types of movement, including fleet.  That's how it has commonly been accepted and practiced.  Deepstriking is a gamble, and that would lessen the odds.  Good point, though."  

Posted By coredump on 04/24/2007 2:40 PM

If it applies to *all* phases, then it makes no sense to include the "..or assault.." part of the rule. If you can't move in *any* phase, you already can't assault; so why include it.
If it applies to only 'normal' movement (iow, during the movement phase) then fleet is okay, and adding "..or assault.." becomes a sensible addition to the rule.
Adding "...or assault..." seems to imply that 'move' does not refer to moving during the assault phase, and thus not during the shooting phase.

It does not matter why they included the "or assault" part. It could have been for clarity.

However, redundant information does not suddenly make the rule invalid. It is clear: models that deep strike cannot move the same turn, period. End of story. If your models move on the turn they deep strike (for any reason) then you have broken the rule.

 

When it comes to disembarking, the rule is much more poorly written and therefore should be handled in a completely different thread. The two situations are completely different.

 

Read my quote, I was responding to Yak's argument that you can Fleet after disembarking, so naturally I'd be referring to the disembarkation rules.

I did not in any way try to refute the argument that you can't Fleet after DS, as it seems pretty clear to me. You cannot move in the turn you arrived from DS, and Fleet is a form of movement. All I'm saying is that the same argument can be applied to disembarking troops, since the "only" movement allowed is the 2" deployment.

The problem is there is no duration listed for the cannot move for the disembark, whereas there is for deepstrike.

And I like that reasoning. Similar to the idea of "Rule #1, Don't be a butthead." But there are plenty of rules that even rational reasonable people see differently. I am sure that Jervis feels like everyone else, that any reasonable person will interpret them exactly the same as he does.
There have been plenty of rules discussed here and elsewhere, and plenty of 'reasonable' people disagree.


I can see you have made up your mind. But you are making an assumption that 'move' applies to all possible movement, in every phase. (Not a bad assumption, but not necessarily true.)
The "or assault" part *could* have been for clarity; or it *could* be because 'move' was only to apply to the movement phase
I am not saying that 'redundant' information is making the rule invalid. I am saying that the information many *not be* redundant, and thus give us more context for the meaning of the rule. You are assuming 'or assault' is redundant, I am saying it may not be.

I wound be interested in why you think they are 'completely different'.
One says you can't move, one says you can only move 2". Both include info about assaulting, neither explicitly states if it deals with all phases or just one phase. I am intrigued how one decides fleeting is okay in one, but not the other.


Why does that matter?

The rules for DS state no movement is permitted including assaulting. The fact assaulting was mentioned doesn't preclude not being able to Fleet since Fleet is movement. Yes, the models may shoot but shooting is not Fleeting. The former requires aims and firing while the later requires movement, which is prohibited by the rule.

Disembarking is a little tricker since the rules are not a clear cut. There appears to be only a couple of restrictions on disembarking models: 1) if the vehicle has moved, the models may only move up to 2" to disembark; 2) all models that disembark may not assault (presumably only for the turn they disembarked) with some exceptions. I don't see any further restrictions to movement beyond that. DS is very specific about no movement. Disembarking is not. Having that, is appears you may Fleet after disembarking (regardless whether the vehicle moved or not) a vehicle.

I imagine the only reason GW mentioned the "no assualt" aspect of deep striking is to stop all the questions from gamers that have units that can do non-normal movement in the assualt phase asking if their "Tau Crisis suit" can still move it's 6" away in assualt phase as they aren't assualting the enemy etc.

I can agree the wording can be twisted to make loopholes in the rules, but to me it seems clear that the intent was to say that no movement of ANY kind can be done in a players turn when deep striking.

With Disembarking.
Its says if vehicle not moved then units can disembark, move shoot and assualt as normal. Sounds clear to me for this part.

If vehicle has moved then units disembark 2" from vehicle hatch and count as moved for purposes of shooting. Therefore it has no bearing on Fleeting as this happens during the shooting phase and makes no difference if the unit moved or not wether by vehicle or by foot in the movement phase.
So personally for me, unless there is a specific rules that says you cannot fleet when jumping out a moving vehicle then I see no reason why you cannot fleet.
If anything, the GW rules give no reason why Fleeting wouldn't be allowed IMHO

You guys aren't quoting the rules, you are paraphrasing them, and the paraphrasing is changing the meaning.

Posted By coredump on 04/25/2007 7:35 AM

The problem is there is no duration listed for the cannot move for the disembark, whereas there is for deepstrike.

Why does that matter?

Deepstrike clearly says how long you cannot move or assault for (1 turn).

Disembarking doesn't.  You don't know if you can't move for the movement phase or the entire game.

 

Personally, I interpret it to be replacing your normal movement in the same phase.  I have no problem with fleeting after disembark.

They don't need to change the DS or Disembark rules to add in fleet, they need to clarify the Fleet rules to say if it can be used after disembarking or DSing. In my gaming group, we've taken a long look at this and agreed that when you DS, your stuck, no movement. The disembark rules are worded differently and make it more ambiguous, thus allowing a fleet move after disembark.

Ozymandias, King of Kings