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Thats the way I play it Ozymandias, I don't know why people thought they could DS and still assault (Maybe a bad interpretation of the open-topped rules for a DP)

Posted By coredump on 04/25/2007 8:55 AM
You guys aren't quoting the rules, you are paraphrasing them, and the paraphrasing is changing the meaning.

Please clarify...how are they changing the meaning of the rules.

Also Coredump due to copyright law, we shouldn't post rules on the forum unless we absolutely have to, and in this case I think most people know the rules we are talking about (this debate is old as time, or at least the 4th edition).    Sorry Coredump, its just sometimes we can get cracked for posting rules when we don't need to. 

Trouble with quoting rules from the rulebook is that if the wording of the rules is causing the initial confusion (eg Fleeting when disembarking) then quoting the rules would be unhelpful and not clarify the problem.

I admit that I'm semi quoting the rules and my own understanding of them. If I'm ever wrong about something I'm more than willing to hold up my hands and admit I'm wrong on the forum and apologise for confusing the poeple I'm trying to assist.

But I believe I'm right on this one hehe

If you're discussing a rule, it needs to be quoted at some point. Anything else immediately lends itself to an exercise in futility.

This may not be the case here, but I can't tell you how many rules queries have stopped short because the OP finally posts the relevant rules and realizes that he/she mis-read something in the first place.

Sure, like this


The word 'including' makes for a very different meaning. Including makes 'assaulting' to be a subset of moving. That is an assumption. The wording is actually 'may not move or assault'. The DS rules do not state assaulting is meant to be a subset of moving. An understandable paraphrase, but a very different meaning.

or
Again, similar, but very different meaning. The rules actually state "I the vehicle has not moved, the passengers may move as normal..." "If the vehicle has already moved, the passengers my *only* move far enough to deploy" (emphasis mine)
Again, similar, and understandable, but a different meaning.

As for copyright, there is a big difference between someone asking "what are the states for a Wraithlord, and his special abilities?" and using snippets of rules for review and discussion. It may not be allowed by the forum Mods, but copyright law will clearly allow it.


The crux of the question is "When they talk about movement, are they referring to *all* movement, or only movement during the movement phase?"

Pro 'all movement': It says 'movement', and does not restrict it, so it would be sensible to assume it means all movement.

Pro 'movement phase': It adds in the 'no assault' statement, which is *needed* if 'movement' refers to the phase only, and redundant otherwise. Plus, if meaning it as a clarification, would have made more sense to write 'no movement, including assaulting'

What really confuses me, is how people read 'may not move' and 'may only move (2")' and assume that 'move' in the first means all turn, and the 'move' in the other only means for the phase.



Sorry, but if 'may not move' covers the entire turn, then the Tau movement is already covered. In fact, it leads more credence to my argument. If they felt this Tau movement was different from normal movement (and thus needed the additional ruling) it reasons that they feel that fleet was different from normal movement.

Ok, granted I used a bad example there. Was trying to make a point that some units act differently in a phase than others, I.E. Crisis suit can assualt 6" in any direction etc (not applicable to this topic, just example of how it differs in rules to norm)
This can sometimes cause confusion as people wonder if the rule applies to them as well because their models acts "out of charactor"

In this case, I believe it does apply.
The rules specifically mentions rules for movement, shooting and assualt in the same paragraph.
As it has addressed each phase seperatly, and Fleet is a shoot phase ability, I believe that Fleet would be affected as describe (can shoot counted as moved)

As you can fleet regardless of wether you move or not under normal cirmcumstance I believe fleeting is allowed.

I agree, it could do with the special rules of Fleet having more clarification.
In my games I personally would allow my opponent to fleet.

Which is the same as the DS. Can shoot, counted as moved.

Yes agreed. So I believe Fleet would be allowed for deepstriking as well for the same reasons as above

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 04/26/2007 8:09 AM

The rules specifically mentions rules for movement, shooting and assualt in the same paragraph.
As it has addressed each phase seperatly, and Fleet is a shoot phase ability, I believe that Fleet would be affected as describe (can shoot counted as moved)

DS prohibits all movement on the turn the model arrives regardless of the rules specifying some or all of the various movement types.  Granted Fleet is a shoot phase ability, it's a movement ability permitted during the shooting phase.  Being able to shoot in the shooting phase and being able to MOVE in the shooting phase are two distinct actions with the latter prohibited by DS.

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 04/28/2007 8:27 AM

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 04/26/2007 8:09 AM

The rules specifically mentions rules for movement, shooting and assualt in the same paragraph.
As it has addressed each phase seperatly, and Fleet is a shoot phase ability, I believe that Fleet would be affected as describe (can shoot counted as moved)

DS prohibits all movement on the turn the model arrives regardless of the rules specifying some or all of the various movement types.  Granted Fleet is a shoot phase ability, it's a movement ability permitted during the shooting phase.  Being able to shoot in the shooting phase and being able to MOVE in the shooting phase are two distinct actions with the latter prohibited by DS.

I agree and don't see what the issue is. I mean how can you have difficulty with the DS rule. It is pretty damn clear it does not allow movement. Fleet is movement, albeit out of turn movement, bvut it is movement. Are you allowed to move after DSing. No. So, after 4 pages what is the issue!!

I mean, come on, "cannot move but may shoot" - it takes a fair bit of wiggling to allow fleet of foot to fight against that.

Depends on how literally you want to take your RAW, I guess.

Head of Hair,
IF you are right, and if it meant *all* movement. Then why did they waste their time being redundant and stating you can't assault. (Since assault includes movement.)

OTOH, *if* you are mistaken, and they were only including 'normal' movement during the movement phase; then the rest of the rule makes is necessary.


BTW, I don't have any real problem with either version. I just don't understand how people can rule one way for DS and another way for Disembarking.

Posted By coredump on 04/29/2007 1:54 PM
BTW, I don't have any real problem with either version. I just don't understand how people can rule one way for DS and another way for Disembarking.

It's because the rules are worded differently.

Deepstrike, you cannot move until end of turn.

Disembark, there is no duration for the move limitation.

I'm with Coredump on this one, the rules address each phase independently mentioning what you can and can't do.

It clarifies in my Tau Codex that units equipped with Jetpacks(jump infantry) cannot move 6" in the assualt phase. If fleet has similar rules applied then it should state it in the relevant codex or in the main rulebook that units cannot fleet when disembarking after moved or deep striking as they do for jetpacked units.

But as it states that you cannot move, you can shoot counted as moved and then says cannot assualt using deep striking as my example. Fleet takes the place of shooting phase and as you CAN shoot I believe you can fleet as normal.

I think the primary issue is that the rules dont take fleet into account, nowadays so many things can fleet it actually matters. In my mind, until something comes about that is official and mentions the situation I would assume that the act is not prohibited. I have no logic behind this, merely that the rules are ambiguous and dont say you cant do it.

Anywho...
In the case of diembarkation I think it's rather moot since you cant charge and any fleet move you make is only going to correct a mistake you made while moving your transport, otherwise you could wait until next turn and avoid aggrivating your opponent. Deepstrike has a similar situation.
Rather than getting into an argument with your opponent that seems to not want to die even here amongst experienced players who have time to sit and read the rules, just agree with your opponent before hand.

Good Advice Leith
Usually if I know I'm going to do something during the game that can cause confusion such as doing whats described above for example, I usually talk to my opponent before the match to get his/her thoughts on the rule. Then after the game, look it up in depth or contact someone who knows.

The trouble with rules like this is that the rules are not 100% clear so each person reads the rule differently and has a different opinion of it in their mind
You say "to-mate-o", I say "to-mart-o". Nothing in the book seems to clarify who is correct until an offical ruling comes in.

Look at it this way: let's say we want to play Deep Strike without breaking any rules. You deploy your models as per the DS rules, and go to the Shooting Phase. You roll for Fleet and begin to move your models. As soon as this is done, you've broken the DS rule of being unable to move.

Thing is, you don't know that the rule refers only to the Movement Phase, because the rule doesn't tell you that. It tells you that you cannot move for the rest of the turn, and reiterates the point by saying that you cannot Assault.

But if you're dead-set sure that it does only refer to the Movement phase by saying that you cannot move that turn, then it's definately something you need to clear up with your opponent before the game starts. There is little worse than have someone spring a rule interpretation on you that you hadn't seen before.

Well I recently played a game against coredump and I let him fleet after deepstriking because after a cursory glance at this thread, I thought that's what the RAW allowed.

(Rules questions aside, it did interesting things to game balance for deepstrking raveners, and gargoyles.)

But now after having read the whole thread, I'm not sure anymore. I think I concur that it really isn't clear whether the "move" that's prohibited in the deepstrike rules is the generic word "move" meaning any displacement of models across the table, or if it's the specialized rules term "move" meaning only displacement that happens during the movement phase. I think this is one for the FAQ.

Posted By Leith on 04/30/2007 2:37 AM
Anywho...
In the case of diembarkation I think it's rather moot since you cant charge and any fleet move you make is only going to correct a mistake you made while moving your transport, otherwise you could wait until next turn and avoid aggrivating your opponent. Deepstrike has a similar situation.

You can assault if you disembark from an open topped vehicle.  Means that my Wyches can go 12", disembark 3", fleet up to 6", and then assault 6" (or 12" depending on wych drugs).  That's up to 25" for assault, the fleet matters quite a bit.

Again, in my group, we read the rules for both fleet and disembark and the consensus is that fleet is allowed after a disembark.  With DeepStrike, its worded differently and pretty clear in my mind that fleet is not allowed.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

No. Just because it take place of shooting still does not mean it's not movement. From page 84 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:


That covers all phases of the turn. You can not move and you can not assault, regardless of what else you are permitted to do.

Ghaz, how do you know it applies to all phases of the turn.  It doesn't say that exactly anywhere in the rules.  That is your interpretation and doesn't make it any more right or wrong as any of the other interpretations. 

I don't agrre that there should be any movement that takes the unit away from ground zero after deepstriking.  But here is some food for thought.

Based on the fact that the word phase is not mentioned but seems to be alluded as per coredumps observations, if there is to be no movement AT ALL, including in the shooting phase, why does it say you can shoot, BUT COUNT AS MOVING?  Clearly, this means that there is movement going on in the shooting phase.  Therefore, since there is movement going on as per the written rules, and fleet simply takes the place of the actual shooting, then clearly fleet is allowed because the movement restriction arguement is impotent  by the fact it says in the rules that shooting is allowed but count as moving when shooting.  So for all those that say there is no movement going on, you are clearly wrong according the the RAW.  Or at the very least, there is hypocrisy creating ambiguity within the written rules.

It absolutely needs to be addresed in an FAQ to amend the part where it says after deepstriking, no movement, including fleet, is allowed.  Until then, it must be discussed prior to game if deepstriking units are involved.

Posted By dornsfist on 04/30/2007 12:15 PM

if there is to be no movement AT ALL, including in the shooting phase, why does it say you can shoot, BUT COUNT AS MOVING?  Clearly, this means that there is movement going on in the shooting phase. 

 

Ummmm... Well....  No. It says this because if it didn't, nimrods would try and fire heavy weapons after deep striking. Ya see, whether or not a model/unit moved effects their ability to fire.

The question here is relatively simple..... Is Fleet movement? If it IS movement, you can't do it on the turn you arrive per the deep strike rules.

So, is fleet movement? Well, what is movement? Where is it defined? I would direct you to BBB p. 15 - 16. But there is a slight problem.... Movement is not actually defined. I mean, they never say "Movement is X."

So, since there is no definition of movement.... you aren't allowed to do it anymore. Sorry.  hate to burst everyone's bubble but you've all been playing it wrong.

Oh, I know you're going to say..."movement is picking up your little plastic army men and moving it around the table." Yes, I understand that is your HOUSE RULE but it is NOT supported by the rules.

So, no more talk about this phantom "movement" stuff.

ender502

Personally, I would say interpret the rules as saying no fleet in either case. But I am okay with the any of the 4 possible rule permutations.

But if 'no movement' covers "all phases", why doesn't 'only move 2" ' cover "all phases"?
If 'no movement' covers "all phases", why do they feel the need to include "or assault" ?

I think that the Deep Strike rules are very clear in their intent to disallow any movement of the models after they have arrived via deep strike. I would interpret the rules as not allowing fleet after a deep strike.

Because it says so, that's why. If it didn't apply to the entire turn then they wouldn't have said that you couldn't move on the turn that you arrive.


So you can't fire a heavy weapon or a rapid fire to maximum range, duh. How anyone can interpret that as meaning you can move in the Shooting phase if you can't move in the turn is beyond me.

I play Eldars and Tyranids, so rules on Fleet certainly matter to me...  I'll try to sum up the 2 debates (DS / Disembark) in a "formal" way, and give my very own personal conclusions...

1.  Can you Fleet after Deep Striking ?

 

It seems pretty clear to me :

"In a turn in which models with this ruledo not shoot or use a psychic power that replaces shooting, they can MOVE an additionald6" in the shooting phase ...."

Right there, fleet of foot is classified as a MOVE, which you may not make in the shooting phase if you DS, because DS has prevented you from MOVEMENT for that phase.

" Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not MOVE or assault on the TURN they arrive"

Seems pretty cut and dried to me, the only time it gets confusing is when semantics are applied to attempt to gain an undue and clearly illegal advantage.

Well, since *you* deem it clear, than surely anyone that dares to disagree *must* be doing it for an illegal advantage. We should have just called you in the first place.

So, if it was so clear and cut and dried...why did they state no assaults? If there is no movement of any kind, and it is clear and obvious, then there are no assaults either.

So, if it was so clear and cut and dried...why did they state no assaults? If there is no movement of any kind, and it is clear and obvious, then there are no assaults either.

_______________________________________________________________

You gave an order to Lt. Kendrick?

Santiago wasn't to be touched. 

Then why was Santiago to be transferred off the base on the first flight?

I felt Santiago's life was in danger.

Grave danger?

Is there any other kind?

Any chance Kendrick ignored the order?  Forgot about it?

We follow orders, son, it's that simple.  We follow orders or people die.  Are we clear?

Yes, Sir.

ARE WE CLEAR?!

Crystal. 

One more question before I call Airmen O'Malley and Rodriguez.  If you gave an order that Santiago wasn't to be touched and your orders are always followed, then why would Santiago be in danger.  Why would it be necessary to have him transferred off the base? 

Why the two orders, Colonel?

Sometimes men take matters into their own hands.

No, sir.  You made it clear just a moment ago that your men NEVER take matters into their own hands.  Your men follow orders or people die, so Santiago should never have been in danger.