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Originally posted by Rob0362 on Warseer.

The Wizards sound nice.

The new plastics being 'cost-affordable' is gibbery-[see forum posting rules]. Probably meaning that they won't be any more than twice the cost of the metal models they replace.

The DE aren't dead - I wonder if they'll get their Codex before Orks.

The 5/10 combat squad rule continues the trend. Basically it seems that the new design team is going out of their way to spit on the work of the people they replaced and mark their territory. By the time C:SM v.4.15.1.A comes out though, the situation might be reversed.

"New Focus is Rules in Line with the Background and Models in Line with the Rules." gobbley-[see forum posting rules] again. Completely meaningless. Presumably GW is saying that their old focus was rules out of line with the background and models out of line with the rules. If so, I guess this approach is a bit more sensible.

CSM Codex this fall eh?
Time to rally the Waaaagh.
Edit h, and plastic veterans.
Now where did I leave that Spirit of Vengeance?
*Scrabbles around under the desk*

I've been working hard on my LatD army this last week, keeping in mind that it may not be around.  Glad to see they're keeping it!!

Yeah, also glad they're keeping renegades/LATD.

Sorry that they're not redoing Empire knights, but there are so many other options out there at this point (Gamezone, Perry Minis, etc.) that one can get one's fix otherwise.

DE not dead? Sure...

Affordable? No comment...

Plastic marine veterans? Hooray! We're that much closer to never having to worry about new marine plastics again! I can't wait until they've finally come around to the plastic space marine special character sprues and move onto giving us plastic things that aren't wearing power armour.

I hope the kit is cool though, from what I've seen of the new veteran models painted over on Warseer the kit looks really nice.

Is there anything in the Space Marine line which isn't plastic?

I like the Renegade/Space Marine Chaos codex idea, though.

Greets
Schepp himself

Pfft.
I'd like it if it came out after orks.
I know all the reasons for the space marine dominance, but I still hate it.

Anyone have any idea on effect what the proposed Codex: Space Marine Redux is going to have on the traits?

Will we even be able to make a non-codex force anymore?

Will one of the traits be the ability to NOT have to take a 5/10 squad to get a special/heavy?

Will one of the traits be the ability to field an 8 man force, thereby making it stay scoring longer without having to pay the extra 30 points for the 2 "extra" marines?

Just curious...

You can see what is supposedly the plastic Veterans HERE on the Bolter & Chainsword.

Gorsh, when are we gunna get our plastik Drop Podz an plastik BaneBlade an Thundear Hawk?!?!? Gee DumBya, you are 2 sl0w!!!! My SPasE MAhRUNEz need more PLASTICK!!!!!!1!!one!!! *pounds fists onto table with a high pitched screeching*

We Interupt this post with breaking news from GW HQ:
Don't worry folks, we'll be getting to Space Orks right after we get to Red Space Marines, Spikey Marines, Marines of Many Colours, Naughty Humans, Grey Marines, Gothik Space Elfs, Some other marines we forgot about, Space Robots, Space Bugz (cuz they're broken!), Space Elfs Redux (whoops!) and then Orks. We're having problems with their models, we're too busy working on Space Marines. Look forward to them Fall 2016! Maybe. Until then, Enjoy our Latest Space Marine offering! It's Plastic, which is more cost affordable (though we'll still charge you the same or more than it's metal equivalent).

as if in new, you mean old then you might have something. 5 and or 5/10 squads have been around for quite some time. In fact, the first real army lists they created you could only buy marines in 10 man squads, but then break them down into 5 man "combat" squads. So if you mean spitting on all the work from before, then you should probably reverse your stance.

Huh? Space Marines have been able to ignore that idiotic combat squads crap for close to a decade. It was one of the best decisions GW made in the switch from 2nd to 3rd edition.

 

 

Hands out the cheeze to go with the whine.

It began that way. In the original RT book and Book of the Astronomican, that was the way squads were set. Sorry, but I didn't think it was that great of a decision to change it. All variable number squads do is allow for min/maxing. Even in the real world the forces will try and scrounge up enough bodies for full squads. It's way the org is set, and marines are even more regimented. I am glad they went back to it.

Is it really that big of a problem people here make out or are you just to lazy/unwilling to buy some more space marines. You can split the 6 las/plas squad into 2x5 las plas squads if you want... I don't see the big deal in that.

Maybe someone could enlighten me please.

Greets
Schepp himself

It's more about metagaming.

Posted By Schepp himself on 04/29/2007 3:31 PM
Is it really that big of a problem people here make out or are you just to lazy/unwilling to buy some more space marines. You can split the 6 las/plas squad into 2x5 las plas squads if you want... I don't see the big deal in that.

Maybe someone could enlighten me please.

Greets
Schepp himself

Basically.

My Marine army is/was finished. I have a couple of 6 or 8-man squads. As each Marine has individual squad markings and insignia, it's a major pain in the ass to need to repaint them.

Alternatively, I'd need to paint up 14 more Marines. That would take a month or two to do and would detract from time I could spend painting my other armies.

It's a pain in the ass either way.

Posted By Toreador on 04/29/2007 3:22 PM
It began that way. In the original RT book and Book of the Astronomican, that was the way squads were set. Sorry, but I didn't think it was that great of a decision to change it. All variable number squads do is allow for min/maxing. Even in the real world the forces will try and scrounge up enough bodies for full squads. It's way the org is set, and marines are even more regimented. I am glad they went back to it.

Bzzzzt. Wrong. The original RT book had no army lists (aside from what they set up for the "Battle at the Farm" scenario, and that was, well, a scenario). The Book of the Astronomicon  and the Compendium did have army lists (White Scars and Index Astartes respectively), and yes, those lists were fixed at 10 or 5 man squad sizes but not only did they have more options available to them as squads, in those days you could still write up your own lists with as many or as few marines in a squad as you liked, so long as you followed the DIY rules and paid the proper points. 

And of course you like it, you like everything GW does, even raising their prices.

1. The new Vets are metal. I asked the question in the seminar.

2. The new Terms. are Chaos Terminators gorgious.

2. HE are the next Fantasy book and they will be losing intrigue. Huzza!
2a. HE rares will be useable..."more inline with the fluff"; when I asked what that meant I was told they should be able to hold up chaos chosen for atleast a turn or two. Adam Troke's fav unit is the pheonix guard. I asked if Ill want them or another repearter bolt thrower...he said things had been shuffled around in their catagories and smiled??? My assuption is rare B throwers.
2b. All CAV lists will be possible, no mention of viable.
2b. no new archers...same old ugly ones had to pry that out of him.

3. Expect the new Marine book whenever it comes out to mirror the combat sqauds and terminator of the DAs. This was funny as some gigantic kid was whining, scoffing, and shaking his head over the DAs and tried to punk out Mr Troke. The guest was kind and replied with a sorry you feel that way get over it and play the new rules response. Made me laugh to see some gamer kid get his Cheerios peed in.

4. Codex Renegades isnt gong to be just Chaos. There will be options for those who have turned from the Imperium. Specificially mentioned were Red Corsiars...someone asked about the Fallen and was rebuffed with an "are they really chaos"...So hmmm.

5. New Wizards are awsome the painted examples, one of each college, were realy cool. Waaaay better them anything currently released and better than the online picks... My fav was the Egyptian themed Mage. Sorry I cant remember his school?
5a. The sprues looked like you get all the mages in one box though. I guess they can cast the sprues and break them to put in boxes but I dont know of them doing this anywhere else.

6. Eavy Metal Painter Kirsten Williams was given 7 days to paint her 1 Harliquin. When she was done, used it all, she said she needed a vacation from the diamond work.

Heard a lot of complaints from the Tourny side...late start no points being distributed at the end. Too much terrain??? O well I had fun. $40? not sure but Im not complaining.

Posted By Brother CPT Ginn on 04/29/2007 4:08 PM

Heard a lot of complaints from the Tourny side...late start no points being distributed at the end. Too much terrain??? O well I had fun. $40? not sure but Im not complaining.

What the hell, to much terrain at a GW run Tourny.  Good lord the old GT's only had 6-8 small to medium items of terrain.  Must have been alot of stationary gunlines armies there. 

Posted By Toreador on 04/29/2007 3:22 PM
All variable number squads do is allow for min/maxing. Even in the real world the forces will try and scrounge up enough bodies for full squads.

Well, it's the game designers' fault they made a system where 6-man squads are more effective than 10-man.

The tables had the same amount of terrain they usually have at GD tournaments, with one main difference. They basically made everything size 3 area terrain. They also never collected anyone's army lists, so any mistakes were up to the participants to figure out.

I was under the impression that Troke wasn't sure about what was going to happen with the LATD. I could be wrong though.

There was a great moment when someone flat out asked "Why did you make the Dark Angels suck?" Or something to that effect. The look on Troke's face was priceless.

And is it just me, or has the Golden Daemon quality and turnout for Atlanta seriously gone down? There were only 6 warhammer regiment entries.

Posted By Ghaz on 04/29/2007 2:37 PM
You can see what is supposedly the plastic Veterans HERE on the Bolter & Chainsword.

Those models are metal.

The big giveaway is the way the rivets are shaped on the legs and torsos. On plastic models, the shape of the rivets stretches out as they progress around the curve so there is no cutaway behind them that would cause problems in a steel mould, whereas the rivets on metal models stay rivet-shaped no matter where they are.

And of course you like it, you like everything GW does, even raising their prices.

Whaaaah.

You do realize that under the new rules and the adjusted points costs, you use fewer models for Space Marines armies? So GW isn't tying product to sales....They could easily have made SM squads 20 to a man for the same points cost to make more money.

You need to stop being such a baby about the prices. Time and time again, every post wha wha wha.

Go play golf.

Who's the bigger fool: the fool, or the fool that trolls him?

Well, I guess I won't be needing to use that green paint any time soon. Those wizards are quite nice, though.

I did say 'supposedly'

Here's my two cents on combat squads, hopefully it'll make sense.

1) DA have them, BTs don't need use the same structure, BA are getting them, and UMs are next (allegedly)
2) Basic space marines have bolters, which are rapid fire, which are better at shooting than at assaulting.
3) Shooting units should be optimized to provide for best shooting.
4) units that can't be optimized for their role won't be used
5) Why would anybody use tactical squads?

I mean, take this progression to the end. Tacs suck at HtH, the fist can keep them in it but they'll get wiped by any dedicated assault unit. The only tactical squads I see at Tournaments are small, 5-8 man squads with LC/PG. Take those away and I assure you that nearly every competitive SM list will have two five man scout squads with snipers and ML for troops.

Now, if space marines get the total nerf pacakge that DA got (and no matter who you tilt your head, at best their a gimmick army, at worst they're the least competitive of the new codices), than the whole army bites, and we deal with it. Otherwise, you'll see even more points dumped into termies, tornados, dreads, devs, etc.

Finally, Competitive players are just that: competitive. If they nerf space marines, which it looks like they might, than we'll play whatever the strongest power armoured list is. If they have to be called "Renegades" to be good, than that's what we'll do.

Now, clearly, I'm extrapolating a ton out of a single rumoured data point. I think that tac squads should be the heart of every space marine force, even the competitive ones. Combat squads is not, however, the way to encourage players to field fluffy armies.

Since I"m guessing most 40k players have at least one SM army, this is going to affect a lot of people. And while SMs have been the top of the heap for a couple of years now, don't forget that the 3rd ed. SM codex wasn't that strong. Everybody played BTs, BAs, or Wolves. Arguably shooty SMs are too strong. As others have pointed out, nothing that couldn't be fixed by toning down Assault Cannons.

Finally, the debate about the ancient rules for combat squads is kind of sketchy, since even in 2nd ed you could take a lot more options to make even five man squads viable (grenades, enhanced HtH weapons, etc.). Also, no other army in 40k mandates squad sizes. Even the IG allows for remnants squads. what combat squads state is that all space marine detachments take casualties in five man increments. Of course, allowing one squad 6-9, and the rest 5 or 10 would solve that.

Posted By Polonius on 04/29/2007 8:45 PM
The only tactical squads I see at Tournaments are small, 5-8 man squads with LC/PG. Take those away and I assure you that nearly every competitive SM list will have two five man scout squads with snipers and ML for troops.

That's why scouts are going to Elites!  Ha!  GW is always one step ahead of you!!