Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/30/2007 7:20 PM

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 6:34 PM
I am counting BA, because what I am counting it for is balancing codexes overall, which is what I am worried about more than models. You can always make do with models, you can't make do without rules. I am looking at a balanced playable game here. You can make the coolest models ever, but if the rules are either too low powered or too high, they won't get much play. You need opponents who want to play to put those new models out against.

I've bought lots of singles from armies I don't play just to paint. I've also bought cool looking Reaper, Confrontation and Warmachine models I know I'll never play a game with.

If you don't care about models, you might as well play one of the Avalon Hill war games with the cardboard chits (they tend to have great rules and tons of balance). Or Panzer General for that matter.

When I play a miniatures game, the miniatures (cool looking, painted armies) are paramount.

Actually, you both have extremely valid points.

Your both right.

Now fight over this cookie!

*throws cookie in between asmodai and toreador*

Heh heh. He can have it, I am dieting.

Yep, both valid points, but I don't see 40k surviving in the condition it was. People are dropping in droves, and I don't think the casual buyer will be able to support 40k.

Why does anyone buy Confrontation figs. Cuz they're purty!

But the rules are ok. They could have been killer if they would have had both.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 7:35 PM
Heh heh. He can have it, I am dieting.

Yep, both valid points, but I don't see 40k surviving in the condition it was. People are dropping in droves, and I don't think the casual buyer will be able to support 40k.

Why does anyone buy Confrontation figs. Cuz they're purty!

But the rules are ok. They could have been killer if they would have had both.

Damn, I'm dieting too.

I guess I'll feed the cookie to my cat. .... Nope. Not interested either.

I agree, having a mix is great. Confrontation rules might have been OK if they had translated them from French into English directly, instead of French -> Klingon -> English.

I don't think 40K can ever survive in the condition it was. There's too much competition now. Cleaning up the rules is part of the fight, so is continuing to offer great models, keeping up the fluff, and keeping existing players buying instead of dumping them after two years as company policy.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 04/30/2007 6:25 PM
What if it's a new Mephiston does it count then?

Yes.

I just got off the phone with a Black Shirt that said that the new Mephiston is going to be the greatest miniature that Games Workshop has ever made.  His perm is straight up gangsta, and the tears on his holster cherub's chubby cheeks will take at least 20 hours to undercoat. 

And his rules aren't too shabby, either.  As well as being a close combat terror, and a powerful psyker, even his movement has rending, therefore everwhere he has walked counts as difficult terrain for the rest of the battle.

With the new foundation paints, it cuts the undercoat time to only 10 hours.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Jester on 04/30/2007 8:26 PM

And his rules aren't too shabby, either.  As well as being a close combat terror, and a powerful psyker, even his movement has rending, therefore everwhere he has walked counts as difficult terrain for the rest of the battle.

Ha! Rending movement. Gold.

BYE

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 2:51 AM
Sucks the new vets are metal. Even though they look better, why remake in metal what already was in metal?

That's because GW wants to make everything metal.  Blacker than the blackest black.  Times infinity.

Posted By dienekes96 on 04/30/2007 6:17 PM
They need 3 a year to make sense.  4 would be better, but I know resources are tight, so three should be reasonable.

Maybe 2 codices worth of models are all they think they'll be able to sell in a year?  No dumping more new releases on the market than customers will be able/willing to buy.

Posted By dienekes96 on 04/30/2007 6:17 PM
Chaos is ALWAYS  a big release (except for the awful 3rd edition version from 1999), so expect at least 5 months until Orks (or Apocalypse, or SM Redone).

Well, the latest rumor seem to suggest that the upcoming Chaos codex will be less like the current one and more like the "awful 3rd edition version from 1999" that you refer to.

If it's a big release, it should just get a longer codex.
Every faction should just get one codex, to prevent neglect.
When I was twelve, I didn't have any problem with the seconded ed codices, and they were massive.

Abs,
I have heard the Chaos Codex is going to be longer than the others. My concern for a $22 Codex is not the rules (which makes me a minority here), but the material, the art, and models that come with it. I was assuming that the Chaos release was a BIG one (100 page Codex), a major project., Maybe I am wrong. I heard NOTHING solid yet. The cover art DOES blow my skirt up through. Have to admit that.

As to the 2/year vs. 3/year...it's not just model sales, but customer interest. I doubt there are people who buy EVERYTHING GW releases. We pick and choose. Greater choice, greater sales. Like I said, 3/year feels like there is always one on the horizon. 2/year feels like a much longer wait, especially if your army isn't even near the list, and even more especially with the rumor window crackdown. It's psychological. Hey, GW's choice. But I'd be enticing gamers myself. The doldrums after the DA release, meant to inspire people to focus on the DA, were a wasteland for every other army.

Hellfury,
I always lurked, but haven't felt I had a lot to add in the last few years. I am not a tourney gamer, as Dakka seemed to be leaning. Like you, the background and mythos is what works for me. I don't do WoW, FoW, Confrontation, D&D, or Warmachine. This is my one gamer vice (besides console gaming). But I do appreciate the kind words, and I have tried to post a bit more lately. I'm not adding much, but I was proud of the new Marine Vet post. I love Marines, but I do feel bad for the Ork players

T,
I roger up on you counting BA in the WD. I see your rules point. But then will you count BA next year when they get a Codex (as one of the "two")? The WD article merely leads the real release...it's not "in addition" to it. I like the idea...shake down the rules before the Codex is finalized. But I don't count it. I am here for the models.

Yeah, rumour on Warseer was that High Elf and Chaos books were both around 104 pages.

I am with you Dienekes96. I do some competitive play, but I mostly play "fun" games. Dakka is what has started making me post more. Has to be a couple detractors to the doom and gloom. Depends on what they do with the rules. I really wouldn't mind a couple of WD lists each year, to get everything in order. I wouldn't count it next year if it is out, unless the test dex is just really bad in play.

40k isn't the end all be all either. They do release WHFB items also, along with LOTR. Too much overlap on new products is bad. Have to give people some time to save money!!

DA is probably the first time in a long time I have purchased most everything released. I did pick up quite a bit of Eldar stuff, especially some of the new sculpts. But I had a lot that would do. DA just came out with some superb kits that I just had to have.

I have mixed thoughts on mega-codexes. It's nice to have lots of fluff and art and it adds value.

On the other hand, it's a lot more to lug around to games.

I'd rather have the Codexes be the length of Codex: Assassins or Codex: Craftworld Eldar and then have a lot more books like Tactica Imperium or the Liber Chaoticas.

You still get all the art and fluff, you just don't need to lug around an unnecessary novel worth of fluff to every game.

Come on!  Carting around 50+ pounds of rules is some of the only exercise we gamers get!

I do like having all the rules and background in one place, but Asmodai DOES have a point.  Perhaps sell them in pairs, one small army list and one larger background/hobby material book.  Or even include loose-leaf army lists with reinforced holes (maybe even laminated) to put into a binder. 

Sure, I guess we, the hobbyist, could do that ourselves, but where's the love, man?!

...And this is why God gave us 6mm...

I don't think I can read six millimeter rules, Syr...

You mean microfiche?

Posted By Jester on 04/30/2007 8:26 PM

And his rules aren't too shabby, either.  As well as being a close combat terror, and a powerful psyker, even his movement has rending, therefore everwhere he has walked counts as difficult terrain for the rest of the battle.

As opposed to Lemartes, who rends the eyes of everyone that sees his model.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/01/2007 10:50 AM
You mean microfiche?

Isn't that the new Tau scout vehicle?

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/01/2007 7:00 AM
My concern for a $22 Codex is not the rules (which makes me a minority here), but the material, the art, and models that come with it.

Same here.  The problem is that the 2 are intertwined.  If something doesn't get its own rules, then not only is it not going to get models, it probably not going to feature prominently in the art or background (if at all).  This is why I'm so worried about the "vanillification" of the cult armies and daemons.  They've already relegated Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children mail order.  If they're consolidating everything into 1 simplified ruleset and doing away with the cult legions as distinct armies then what kind of model support are we supposed to expect?

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/01/2007 7:00 AM
I doubt there are people who buy EVERYTHING GW releases. We pick and choose. Greater choice, greater sales. Like I said, 3/year feels like there is always one on the horizon. 2/year feels like a much longer wait, especially if your army isn't even near the list, and even more especially with the rumor window crackdown.

I think the idea is that people will jump on the new army bandwagon and start a new force rather than wait years and years for an update to the armies they already have (in which case they'd probably only replace a few models anyway).  I'm not sure that strategy works though...

I agree that's the idea. But I think it's a bad one, and will yield less revenue, not more. As they might be finding out. People are attached to their armies. They won't just start a DA one because it's "new". They might buy a box or two for the nice plastic bits.

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/02/2007 6:21 AM
They might buy a box or two for the nice plastic bits.

I'm guilty of that.

I love the new DA models and, in all honesty, I bought the DA Command Squad box simply for that power mace bit.

BYE

I can't afford to do that.
I'd probably own most of the fantasy range that isn't elves or empire if I could.
(I'm an elf hater)

I agree that the "new army bandwagon" strategy is gakky.
If only because it causes such resentment.
I used to be enthusiastic and happy with my hobby.

As a note, talked to my locals today (based on the Chapter Council - which they guessed was a plastic kit for HQ choices...the JHall post puts the end to that) and they mentioned that Apocalypse was a Late summer release, followed by Chaos in the Fall. Brim then mentioned on warseer that Orks will be early 2008.

That means they will get 3 Codicies in a year, so my 2/year comments are refuted. Just thought I'd share.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh why no Orks?