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Sure, but the deadline-miss rate on Kickstarter is a) very high* and b) particularly so for wargames (I forget where the stats are, maybe someone else has a link?).

So yeah, some people will complain about deadline misses, because you can't please everyone, but in the grand scheme of Kickstarters it's just noise, because anyone backing a wargames Kickstarter and not expecting delays just isn't being realistic on the balance of evidence.

Yes! they are 'very popular!' so instead of doing a second run of plastics from the Chinese factory which is too busy doing our next Kickstarter, and since we already got your money, we will send metal figures to crap on people and kill that 'popularity'.

And if you don't like it, you can pay 50$ international shipping to return the metal figures.

Edit: Other kickstarters have contacted people and said 'We have had stock issues, if you are willing to take a later second-run shipment, we can throw in some swag' and let people opt-in.

And if a single retail store got plastic wave 3 while KS backers got metal that is UNACCEPTABLE. You need to delay your retail release to fulfill your Kickstarter obligations. Failing to do so is unacceptable.

And if you were not so greedy selling 2 kickstarters down the line, it may not have been a big deal to get more plastics emergency run instead of using a GW "good news" (TM) to explain why you are dumping metals on people.

There are ways to handle this to keep everyone happy, if you actually care about what you produce, but the 'tear off the sprue' issue is still thriving well, so they are clear they have no intention on fixing no-cost fixable issues.

Daedle wrote:
And if they'd missed the deadline you'd be complaining that they missed the deadline AND THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER MANTIC ALWAYS SCREW EVERYTHING UP.

What do you expect? Kroothawk doesn't post content... 50% of his posts are reposts of news items from other websites, the other 50% is unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks, because it's the internet and, hey, you can. He comes back every few weeks to remind us all that he doesn't like Mantic.


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Got my Dreadball S3 stuff in the mail yesterday, all pvc, no miscasts, no mold lines. Also got the acrylic board which is probably the coolest accessory ever. I had skipped it in the first survey but after my buddy got one and I played on it I realized I wanted it, haha, so got it in the last survey. The Big Mech is really really badass. I also didn't realize how many freebies we were getting! Like a half dozen MVP's and piles of figures from basically every team released so far. So I'm just giving all the baggies of alt sculpts and prone figures to my friends that have the matching teams (I play Corporation and just got the cthulhu dudes and teratons to try out)

GODDAMN YOU MANTIC YOU DELIVERED EVERYTHING I WANTED ON TIME AND IT LOOKS GREAT AND I GOT IT FOR WAY LESS THAN RETAIL AND IN SOME CASES FREE

HOW DARE YOU

 judgedoug wrote:

Daedle wrote:
And if they'd missed the deadline you'd be complaining that they missed the deadline AND THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER MANTIC ALWAYS SCREW EVERYTHING UP.

What do you expect? Kroothawk doesn't post content... 50% of his posts are reposts of news items from other websites, the other 50% is trolling. He comes back every few weeks to interject his opinion, which I'm sure he realizes by now that no one actually care about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got my Dreadball stuff in the mail yesterday, all pvc, no miscasts, no mold lines. Also got the acrylic board which is probably the coolest accessory ever.

GODDAMN YOU MANTIC YOU DELIVERED EVERYTHING I WANTED ON TIME AND IT LOOKS GREAT AND I GOT IT FOR WAY LESS THAN RETAIL AND IN SOME CASES FREE

HOW DARE YOU

But people seem to agree with Kroothawk, and not everyone got what they wanted and it didn't look great for everyone... People have legitimate complaints and being a corporate shill doesn't change the fact people got poor looking and damaged models and the material was not what they were promised. They have legitimate complains and don't deserve to be trivialized by your namecalling.

And to be fair, between you and kroothawk you troll ALOT. We all know how displeased with Mantic you are and how they took your firstborn to be sacrificed on there alter but quite frankly other peoples complaints are valid you are known for trolling with kroothawk so its probably best you don't post here.

overtyrant wrote:
And to be fair, between you and kroothawk you troll ALOT. We all know how displeased with Mantic you are and how they took your firstborn to be sacrificed on there alter but quite frankly other peoples complaints are valid you are known for trolling with kroothawk so its probably best you don't post here.

Only if the ban the corporate shills from shouting down legitimate complains.

There is a reason people are dropping out of Mars attacks and are now fearing for their deadzone pledges seeing the same type of 'neglect' now that mantic is on to the next best thing.

And while you may not like it, I'm not wrong... So you can call it trolling, I call it disagreeing and talking about the situation as it is.

Were there better ways to handle stock shortages and stay on timeline? How is discussing that 'trolling'?
Are people legitimately unhappy with metal when promised restic? How is discussing that 'trolling'?
Is their response unacceptable and corporate spin? How is discussing that 'trolling'?
Is there an issue if retail stores got the real product while backers get metal? How is discussing that 'trolling'?

If you would like to actually address the issues being discussed, feel free... or else *YOU* are the one trolling and trying to stifle any negative reaction from people to carry a companies water... for reasons yet to be determined...

nkelsch wrote:
There is a reason people are dropping out of Mars attacks and are now fearing for their deadzone pledges seeing the same type of 'neglect' now that mantic is on to the next best thing.

No. They made a bad decision, it's got nothing to do with neglect. The problem is that they were supposed to have learned from their mistakes and not done silly things like this anymore.

The accusations of trolling come when you misrepresent the problem like that.

People are dropping out of Mars Attacks? ($450k with 16 days left? must be a failure)

And people are fearing for their Deadzone pledges? Who is?
Are there trembling gamers shaking with fright with tears streaming down their faces, wailing and gnashing their teeth and beating their chests? WTF is going on?
I coulda sworn the last round of pics for Deadzone was pretty well received. It personally made my disinterest in space orcs turn around, now I'm looking forward to getting some of the models.

Or maybe it's just one lone loud screeching whining voice.

It is never a good idea to accuse someone of trolling.

If you think someone is trolling, please use the Mod Alert button (the exclamation point in the yellow triangle) instead.

Otherwise, Rule #1 may cause you to receive a warning.

Thanks!

 judgedoug wrote:
Snip

Check the last page of the mars attacks thread and you'll see at least 4 have cancelled, with more thinking about it.

Implying that those who disagree with you are corporate shills and/or white knights is very much trolling, however. Leveling pointless and unfounded accusations about people's motives are not at all germane to the matters at hand.

In this case, it's a matter of communication. Did they communicate the materials of some of the models properly? It's seeming like now possibly not. Did they communicate about supply issues for one that are fairly clearly supposed to be restic? Nope. Are these communication issues and underlying problems that should have been communicated deal-breakers? That depends entirely on the backer.

For my part, it annoys me. However, delays annoy me (not an issue with Mantic thus far). Rules that aren't fun annoy me (Also not an issue). Games that I can't share with my friends annoy me (expanding a 2 player game to a 6 player game is pretty nice). Crappy sculpts bother me too (Mantic definitely has this one but not, in my opinion, for DreadBall...possibly some in DeadZone though) Maybe I'm just easily annoyed, so for me Mantic hasn't hit the level of "company I wouldn't do business with." They might not be in the DreamForge "forgive some really bad annoyances and would buy the same amount" category, but they're not in the "would only buy from bargain bin" bracket either.

DeadZone will likely shift them one way or another, but time will tell which way. In the meantime, I hope to see my final DreadBall shipment soon (down the road from Doug so there's hope yet!) and playing with my new toy....well not soldiers but you get the idea.

 Yonan wrote:

Check the last page of the mars attacks thread and you'll see at least 4 have cancelled, with more thinking about it.

Out of 2,285 backers. Call the National Guard!

So 4 canceled on a dakka thread and a company and KS project are in trouble?
I also read the Bones 2 thread and several people there canceled. Reaper must be in trouble, too, they're at two and a half million bucks right now.

You say "one voice"... shown evidence of 4 on 1 discussion thread page. *moves goal posts*. Gotcha.

Wait so I received half metal and half restic because I had a large order and got packed at the end when they had run out even though I ordered my season 3 stuff in the very first survey?

EDIT: OK looks like they never made the alt. sculpts in restic at all.

 Yonan wrote:
You say "one voice"... shown evidence of 4 on 1 discussion thread page. *moves goal posts*. Gotcha.

There's no goalposts to move because you don't understand what I said.

"nkelsch wrote:
There is a reason people are dropping out of Mars attacks and are now fearing for their deadzone pledges seeing the same type of 'neglect' now that mantic is on to the next best thing."
(sorry can't do the official quotes properly as he's on my Ignore filter)

^---- Or maybe it's just one lone loud screeching whining voice.


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 Krinsath wrote:

DeadZone will likely shift them one way or another, but time will tell which way. In the meantime, I hope to see my final DreadBall shipment soon (down the road from Doug so there's hope yet!) and playing with my new toy....well not soldiers but you get the idea.

Whereabouts man? We play a little Dreadball here and there in our club (and lots of Kings of War)

I'm one for whom Dreadzone will be the tipping point for Mantic. I didn't back KoW because I didn't have the cash back then and looking back I'm glad I didn't. However I did go in decently on Dreadzone. Mostly for terrain and some figures for a buddy with the option to go crazy on the FF's and other models once I saw some sculpts. Seeing the sculpts has sold me on at least a Rebel starter and possibly some other figures. The quality of the first wave will determine if I throw cash at them or not.

All that said I see a mistake on their part for trying to meet their deadlines they made a poor decision.

As an outside source who's not a huge fan or detractor of Mantic it can get pretty tired seeing the same two people "complain" in this thread.

 judgedoug wrote:

^---- Or maybe it's just one lone loud screeching whining voice.

I'm not the one saying things like:

Between KoW, the latest Dreadball debacle and the Unknown That is Deadzone, I don't feel comfortable enough to trust Mantic with any more preorder money.

Or the people agreeing with that statement.

I am just referencing it.

But try to continue to wage a war on public perception that people are making up these valid criticisms and concerns or falsifying their personal experiences and have differences of opinions from you.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'm one for whom Dreadzone will be the tipping point for Mantic. I didn't back KoW because I didn't have the cash back then and looking back I'm glad I didn't.

Oddly enough that was my first exposure to Mantic and it's also been my favorite Kickstarter. The initial pledges were for pre-existing product at massive discounts - So I got several very very large fantasy armies for pennies on the dollar. Then, all the 20+ units and dozen heroes or whatever we all free stretch goals. I disliked roughly half of the new sculpts but they were all free, so I was just fine with it. (I just swapped the ones I didn't like for extras of the ones I did like).

At the time I didnt' care for any of their existing fantasy ranges and had hopes for some of the ones they were coming out with like Ogres and the Basilians. That's mostly why I'm glad I didn't have the opportunity to go in hardcore as I wuold have been disappointed with the results. Though the ogres are at least ok.

nkelsch wrote:



I'm not the one saying things like:

Between KoW, the latest Dreadball debacle and the Unknown That is Deadzone, I don't feel comfortable enough to trust Mantic with any more preorder money.

Hey, that was me!

Also, seriously everyone - stop with the "Troll" and/or "White Knight" accusations - thanks!

I can't believe people are complaining about getting metal, that stuff is even more expensive than finecast.

Yeah people whine about restic, people whine about metal, people whine about delays all it shows is that you cannot please all the people all the time and that your damned if you do and your damned if you don't.

Also certain peoples posts are now just white noise given there repeated posts, about how bad one company is but how mesaih like another is.

Oh and I received my season 3 yesterday and containing metal minis but as Mantic had all ready advised us of this and why I am ok with it.

Sorry for my grumpy posts earlier guys, I'm grumpy today (found out my lady's car's transmission is going, so now we need to either find a new car or get transmission replaced) and it's unbecoming of me to post grumpy responses undeservedly.

I'll become a member of the white noise crowd.

Mantic severely disappointed me with KoW; sure I got existing undead at a good discount but was looking forward to the new models as well so went in on the BoGo offers. Yeah, that didn't work out so well. Someone earlier told me not to whine about free models but not everything I got was free...whatever, I guess he/she's been living in my closet and knows everything about what I spend my money on. Call me a troll, I really don't care. My opinion is that they took my money and gave me models that looked very different from the concept art. See...trolls and nuns on cats...er kittens.

My fear is that Mantic management cares more for expedience and cost-saving than quality and not enough for communication. I generally have no problem with cost-saving from a company, who doesn't want to make money, but you don't pull a bait and switch and expect me to be ok with your weak excuse, "We can't show the test shots because we put them directly in a box and sent them to the manufacturer." then months later not give me what you showed in the concept art without nary a "by your leave". I will give them partial points for coming along later in private email and offering a partial refund or replacement but the few hundred bucks I was out wasn't worth my time to deal with shipping their crap back them so I dumped it on my friend and his kid for practice.

All that grumbling aside, I went in heavy with DZ (before the KoW debacle, nice timing that) and this will determine whether I ever deal with Mantic again. I spend in the neighborhood of $4-5,000 (USD) per year on hobby-related purchases, they can take part in that or I'll go elsewhere.

 agnosto wrote:
I'll become a member of the white noise crowd.

Mantic severely disappointed me with KoW; sure I got existing undead at a good discount but was looking forward to the new models as well so went in on the BoGo offers. Yeah, that didn't work out so well. Someone earlier told me not to whine about free models but not everything I got was free...whatever, I guess he/she's been living in my closet and knows everything about what I spend my money on. Call me a troll, I really don't care. My opinion is that they took my money and gave me models that looked very different from the concept art. See...trolls and nuns on cats...er kittens.

My fear is that Mantic management cares more for expedience and cost-saving than quality and not enough for communication. I generally have no problem with cost-saving from a company, who doesn't want to make money, but you don't pull a bait and switch and expect me to be ok with your weak excuse, "We can't show the test shots because we put them directly in a box and sent them to the manufacturer." then months later not give me what you showed in the concept art without nary a "by your leave". I will give them partial points for coming along later in private email and offering a partial refund or replacement but the few hundred bucks I was out wasn't worth my time to deal with shipping their crap back them so I dumped it on my friend and his kid for practice.

All that grumbling aside, I went in heavy with DZ (before the KoW debacle, nice timing that) and this will determine whether I ever deal with Mantic again. I spend in the neighborhood of $4-5,000 (USD) per year on hobby-related purchases, they can take part in that or I'll go elsewhere.

Hey agnosto,

I wouldn't count you as a troll in the least! These are well reasoned and understandable gripes with Mantic. I'm sorry you feel let down, and I don't think anyone wanted to claim to know what your spending habits are, but it can get frustrating dealing with certain posters. It's certainly hard sometimes sifting through genuine gripes and those who are just moaning for moanings sake. I've passed similar comments on as feedback on the KoW kickstarter so here's hoping the rest of the DZ one goes a lot smoother. It certainly seems to be so far with the only really divisive models so far seem to be the Marauders, which were significantly improved following feedback. We've seen the majority of what's coming in wave 1 already, though we could perhaps do with some specific updates on the status of hard plastic enforcers and the other plastic kits.

But the marauders aren't significantly better! They still have giant hands! They still don't look like my ideal of sci-fi orc! WHAABLAH!

Nah just being an arse, the marauders look pretty awesome and I'm eagerly awaiting painting them along with the other three core factions. I think they'll tie with rebs for the most fun to run in campaigns with the whole "oozing character" thing as opposed to facless enforcers and (somewhat) mindless plague.

While I remain firmly in the positive/bubbly/excited to see deadzone camp, I did spend a lot and like some people have said it will be Mantic's "trial by fire" for me. If all goes well or mostly well or not so poorly that I get super mad about it, I'll continue to fully support mantic. If it crashes and burns I may drop out of mini wargaming altogether because I'm sure not gonna take my business back to GW. I'll just convert to a painter and play with my Bones 2 shipment when it comes in :p

Got my Season 3 stuff, the mold lines on a lot of the human sized stuff is really bad. Very disappointing. Seems to be a few miscast a as well and a lot of the tabs have to actually be cut off as they don't fit the holes.

Daedle wrote:
And if they'd missed the deadline you'd be complaining that they missed the deadline AND THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER MANTIC ALWAYS SCREW EVERYTHING UP.

Missing a deadline to release good miniatures means you eventually get good miniatures. Cutting corners to release by the deadline means you never get good miniatures. It's like the old saying, "measure twice, cut once". Releasing gak now just means you'll have to redo it later, if you ever want to have a decent product line.

Yes! they are 'very popular!' so instead of doing a second run of plastics from the Chinese factory which is too busy doing our next Kickstarter, and since we already got your money, we will send metal figures to crap on people and kill that 'popularity'.

completely inaccurate on your part ONCE AGAIN.

no-one got plastic season 3 alternates because they didn't go into a plastic tool. all season 3 alternates are metal. why? because they didn't sell enough to justify the cost of the tools.

The Season 2 alternates, which were all plastic, got delayed because they're shipment didn't turn up. because that same factory that delivered all five giants, all four season 3 teams, 8 team boosters, and 3 new mvps, forgot to ship the extra boxed they ordered.

if you're going to post, get your facts straight.

 Black Nexus wrote:

Yes! they are 'very popular!' so instead of doing a second run of plastics from the Chinese factory which is too busy doing our next Kickstarter, and since we already got your money, we will send metal figures to crap on people and kill that 'popularity'.

completely inaccurate on your part ONCE AGAIN.

no-one got plastic season 3 alternates because they didn't go into a plastic tool. all season 3 alternates are metal. why? because they didn't sell enough to justify the cost of the tools.

The Season 2 alternates, which were all plastic, got delayed because they're shipment didn't turn up. because that same factory that delivered all five giants, all four season 3 teams, 8 team boosters, and 3 new mvps, forgot to ship the extra boxed they ordered.

if you're going to post, get your facts straight.

Your facts seem inconsistent with Mantic's facts.

Mantic Update 126 wrote:We were expecting the shipping to be done by now, but we had a slight delay with some items - following the recent survey it turned out we needed not only a lot of the Gabe, Drake, Chris Nord and James Sylar figures, but more of the Season 3 alternate sculpts, prones and keepers than expected - they've been very popular! They're now being cast in metal but as we cast our metal figures in-house we're able to take them straight from the mould to your Kickstarter shipments.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/dreadball-the-futuristic-sports-game/posts/626068