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 Albertorius wrote:

If this is the case, it seems that gangers cannot discard weapons anymore, right? But they could still buy new ones using the regular Trading Post.

That... seems to be an iffy patch, at best ^^

Except they can't, because in all "House of" books, gangers can't take weapons from the Trade Post or Black Market. They are specifically forbidden from it in their own entry and no, that's not an error, that's a design choice.

There are copy/paste errors in the book, that I agree with it, but on the other hand, I think making up mistakes when it's actually just not reading what is written isn't fair as well. For example, the way Legendary Names works is actually quite straightforward and precise which kind fighter can take them and when (page 93, "Using Legendary names" : only the fighters with the "Gang Hierachy X" rule can begin with one Name, the other fighters can only have access to it with Advancements).

The book overall is nice and add interesting new material for Orlock clan. Is it perfect ? No, nothing will ever be. Will there a FAQ to fix it ? Sure, as usual. Is it a scam for the price ? Not really...I've seen the same with roleplaying books all the time.

Sarouan wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

If this is the case, it seems that gangers cannot discard weapons anymore, right? But they could still buy new ones using the regular Trading Post.

That... seems to be an iffy patch, at best ^^

Except they can't, because in all "House of" books, gangers can't take weapons from the Trade Post or Black Market. They are specifically forbidden from it in their own entry and no, that's not an error, that's a design choice.

There are copy/paste errors in the book, that I agree with it, but on the other hand, I think making up mistakes when it's actually just not reading what is written isn't fair as well. For example, the way Legendary Names works is actually quite straightforward and precise which kind fighter can take them and when (page 93, "Using Legendary names" : only the fighters with the "Gang Hierachy X" rule can begin with one Name, the other fighters can only have access to it with Advancements).

The book overall is nice and add interesting new material for Orlock clan. Is it perfect ? No, nothing will ever be. Will there a FAQ to fix it ? Sure, as usual. Is it a scam for the price ? Not really...I've seen the same with roleplaying books all the time.

What you say don't seem to gel with the rule from the books you're talking about:

NEW EQUIPMENT
During a campaign, gangs may gain new equipment, either by purchasing it from the Trading Post or Black Market, or as a result of Boons. These items are added to the gang’s Stash and may be distributed among fighters during any post-battle sequence:

• Any fighter may discard any Wargear they are equipped with in favour of new Wargear. Any Wargear discarded in this way is placed in the gang’s Stash and may be given to other fighters.
• No fighter may discard a weapon. Underhive gangers become attached to their weapons of choice and would rather horde weapons than discard them.
• Fighters with the Gang Fighter (X) special rule that do not also have the Tools of the Trade special rule cannot be given a new weapon if it would take them above the limit of three weapons carried.
• Fighters with the Tools of the Trade special rule can be given more than three weapons as they can have multiple Fighter cards, each representing a different ‘equipment set’ , as described below.

It only states that the gangers are clingy as feth about weapons and they don't do away with any. Not that they can't pick up new ones from the stash. Which is where you put what you buy from the Trade Post and the Black Market.

Sarouan wrote:

There are copy/paste errors in the book, that I agree with it, but on the other hand, I think making up mistakes when it's actually just not reading what is written isn't fair as well. For example, the way Legendary Names works is actually quite straightforward and precise which kind fighter can take them and when (page 93, "Using Legendary names" : only the fighters with the "Gang Hierachy X" rule can begin with one Name, the other fighters can only have access to it with Advancements).

The book overall is nice and add interesting new material for Orlock clan. Is it perfect ? No, nothing will ever be. Will there a FAQ to fix it ? Sure, as usual. Is it a scam for the price ? Not really...I've seen the same with roleplaying books all the time.

This is the 3rd book in 3 years that is explaining how to create an Orlock gang in Necromunda. That's pretty close to a scam in my opinion. How many books is needed before you'd consider it a scam?

I'm not saying House of... books are compatible with all previous books. I'm saying things aren't crystal clear, this discussion alone should be evidence of that.

 Albertorius wrote:


It only states that the gangers are clingy as feth about weapons and they don't do away with any. Not that they can't pick up new ones from the stash. Which is where you put what you buy from the Trade Post and the Black Market.

And what you don't get is that page 43 of the House of Iron book, it is explicitely stated that ganger fighters can't take weapons from the Trade Post and Black Market at all - only wargear. Wargear isn't weapons.

So yeah, they can't pick new ones from the stash if they already have the maximum of weapons because of the rule stated before, and that rule Baxx was talking about the Trade Post and Black Market specifically doesn't apply to ganger fighters in "House of" books because they simply can't buy new weapons from these places at all.

Baxx wrote:

This is the 3rd book in 3 years that is explaining how to create an Orlock gang in Necromunda. That's pretty close to a scam in my opinion. How many books is needed before you'd consider it a scam?

I'm not saying House of... books are compatible with all previous books. I'm saying things aren't crystal clear, this discussion alone should be evidence of that.

Well you should stop playing GW games, because that's what they do all the time...books for the new edition or, in this case, litteral gang army books. Let's be honest here : these books are totally paving the way for a new edition rulebook, the pattern is obvious in these "House of" books. I have no doubt the Gangs of the Underhive book will be replaced once they'll release all the main gangs "House of" books...and there will be certainly something to replace the Trade Post rules.

And yeah, Necromunda rules are far from being the most easy to grasp, especially for a beginner. That I agree. But I'm saying there is no need to make up more mistakes that there are in reality in the book itself, like you did in your own list.

Sarouan wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


It only states that the gangers are clingy as feth about weapons and they don't do away with any. Not that they can't pick up new ones from the stash. Which is where you put what you buy from the Trade Post and the Black Market.

And what you don't get is that page 43 of the House of Iron book, it is explicitely stated that ganger fighters can't take weapons from the Trade Post and Black Market at all - only wargear. Wargear isn't weapons.

So yeah, they can't pick new ones from the stash if they already have the maximum of weapons because of the rule stated before, and that rule Baxx was talking about the Trade Post and Black Market specifically doesn't apply to ganger fighters in "House of" books because they simply can't buy new weapons from these places at all.

As I said, I don't actually have any of the House books, and I was asking if the rule was the same. Is it the same rule? It appears to be.

So unless your ganger already have three weapons or don't have Tools of the Trade, they can actually get weapons from the stash, right? (the rule says "equipment" not "wargear") Which are bought from the Trade Post and Black Market.

 Albertorius wrote:

As I said, I don't actually have any of the House books, and I was asking if the rule was the same. Is it the same rule? It appears to be.

So unless your ganger already have three weapons or don't have Tools of the Trade, they can actually get weapons from the stash, right? (the rule says "equipment" not "wargear") Which are bought from the Trade Post and Black Market.

It doesn't matter, since the ganger can't equip any weapon that's not from their own list. No Trade Post or Black Market for them.

And yes, the House of Iron has the exact same rules than the House of Chain and House of Blades here for the gangers.

Besides, if you don't have the books, it's better not to try to be the rule lawyer here. Especially when you don't actually know what is written in the contested rule.

...ok, please explain it to me as if I don't have the book and don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Sarouan wrote:
It doesn't matter, since the ganger can't equip any weapon that's not from their own list. No Trade Post or Black Market for them.

Why? Is it stated in their specific entries? Do they say specifically that they can't get stuff from the stash?

And yes, the House of Iron has the exact same rules than the House of Chain and House of Blades here for the gangers.

If that's the rule, and it is not countermanded somewhere else, then what you're saying is wrong. Please, could you explain the rule you're referencing to?

Besides, if you don't have the books, it's better not to try to be the rule lawyer here. Especially when you don't actually know what is written in the contested rule.

OR... you might explain the rule instead of providing glib sarcasm. I don't even have the books and I AM providing the rule, FFS!

Once again:

NEW EQUIPMENT
During a campaign, gangs may gain new equipment, either by purchasing it from the Trading Post or Black Market, or as a result of Boons. These items are added to the gang’s Stash and may be distributed among fighters during any post-battle sequence:

Is this contradicted anywhere else?

• Any fighter may discard any Wargear they are equipped with in favour of new Wargear. Any Wargear discarded in this way is placed in the gang’s Stash and may be given to other fighters.
• No fighter may discard a weapon. Underhive gangers become attached to their weapons of choice and would rather horde weapons than discard them.
• Fighters with the Gang Fighter (X) special rule that do not also have the Tools of the Trade special rule cannot be given a new weapon if it would take them above the limit of three weapons carried.
• Fighters with the Tools of the Trade special rule can be given more than three weapons as they can have multiple Fighter cards, each representing a different ‘equipment set’ , as described below.

Is this how it works?

Because if it is, you CAN give a weapon from the stash to ANY ganger that doesn't already have three OR has the Tools of the Trade Special rule.

Is this the case? Is it countermanded by any other rule? Which one is it?

I mean, it can't be that hard.

It very simply isn't the case. Gunners, Specialists, Wreckers and Greenhorns may only be equipped with weapons taken from their respective equipment lists.

I mean, sure, theoretically you could GIVE them a weapon from your stash that they're not allowed to equip. Don't know what they'll do with it. Could wear it as a hat I suppose. But they specifically can't equip it.

It's not even written ambiguously.

 Graphite wrote:
It very simply isn't the case. Gunners, Specialists, Wreckers and Greenhorns may only be equipped with weapons taken from their respective equipment lists.

I mean, sure, theoretically you could GIVE them a weapon from your stash that they're not allowed to equip. Don't know what they'll do with it. Could wear it as a hat I suppose. But they specifically can't equip it.

It's not even written ambiguously.

From what I've been told, you're limited on the type of guns you can equip a ganger with (and that's how it's been in all editions), but... you can get those from the stash, right?

That's why "per ganger" equipment costs are iffy, particularly if the Trading Post/Black Market cost is inferior: you'll just buy it on the market, add it to your stash and give it to the ganger.

 Graphite wrote:
It very simply isn't the case. Gunners, Specialists, Wreckers and Greenhorns may only be equipped with weapons taken from their respective equipment lists.

I mean, sure, theoretically you could GIVE them a weapon from your stash that they're not allowed to equip. Don't know what they'll do with it. Could wear it as a hat I suppose. But they specifically can't equip it.

It's not even written ambiguously.

Wreckers got access to Trading Post & Black Market which makes them quite unique.

You can buy it from wherever you like. To equip it it'll have to be on your ganger's equipment list.

And you're quite right, uniquely the Wreckers can equip trading post CC weapons (but no other trading post weapons)

 Albertorius wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
It very simply isn't the case. Gunners, Specialists, Wreckers and Greenhorns may only be equipped with weapons taken from their respective equipment lists.

I mean, sure, theoretically you could GIVE them a weapon from your stash that they're not allowed to equip. Don't know what they'll do with it. Could wear it as a hat I suppose. But they specifically can't equip it.

It's not even written ambiguously.

From what I've been told, you're limited on the type of guns you can equip a ganger with (and that's how it's been in all editions), but... you can get those from the stash, right?

That's why "per ganger" equipment costs are iffy, particularly if the Trading Post/Black Market cost is inferior: you'll just buy it on the market, add it to your stash and give it to the ganger.

Just to make things easy. this is exactly what is written for gangers in house of blades. Similar wording is used for juves as well.

EQUIPMENT
Escher Gang Sisters and Escher Specialists may purchase weapons and Wargear from the Escher Gang Sister equipment list:
• During the course of a campaign, both Escher Gang Sisters and Escher Specialists may be given additional weapons purchased from this list.
• In addition, during a campaign both Escher Gang Sisters and Escher Specialists may be given additional Wargear purchased from this list, from the Trading Post and from the Black Market.
• An Escher Gang Sister may only be equipped with weapons chosen from the Basic Weapons, Pistols and Close Combat Weapons sections of this list.
• Once promoted, an Escher Specialist has no restrictions upon the types of weapon they can take from this list; all weapon types within this list become available.

So basically if the weapon wasn't purchased from the house list. They can't use it.

balmong7 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
It very simply isn't the case. Gunners, Specialists, Wreckers and Greenhorns may only be equipped with weapons taken from their respective equipment lists.

I mean, sure, theoretically you could GIVE them a weapon from your stash that they're not allowed to equip. Don't know what they'll do with it. Could wear it as a hat I suppose. But they specifically can't equip it.

It's not even written ambiguously.

From what I've been told, you're limited on the type of guns you can equip a ganger with (and that's how it's been in all editions), but... you can get those from the stash, right?

That's why "per ganger" equipment costs are iffy, particularly if the Trading Post/Black Market cost is inferior: you'll just buy it on the market, add it to your stash and give it to the ganger.

Just to make things easy. this is exactly what is written for gangers in house of blades. Similar wording is used for juves as well.

EQUIPMENT
Escher Gang Sisters and Escher Specialists may purchase weapons and Wargear from the Escher Gang Sister equipment list:
• During the course of a campaign, both Escher Gang Sisters and Escher Specialists may be given additional weapons purchased from this list.
• In addition, during a campaign both Escher Gang Sisters and Escher Specialists may be given additional Wargear purchased from this list, from the Trading Post and from the Black Market.
• An Escher Gang Sister may only be equipped with weapons chosen from the Basic Weapons, Pistols and Close Combat Weapons sections of this list.
• Once promoted, an Escher Specialist has no restrictions upon the types of weapon they can take from this list; all weapon types within this list become available.

So basically if the weapon wasn't purchased from the house list. They can't use it.

Thanks for that

It is... a weird way to do things, TBH. Personally, I think I much prefer it as it was back in the day (only specialists can use special weapons, juves can't use basics, everything else is game).

This way of doing things... well, it's very "codex" like, I guess. Which to me feels anathema to what Necromunda is, particularly for campaigns, but well, here we are.

And for Old Necromunda I'd agree with you entirely - it was very much shown in the background that the houses were fundamentally identical except for which skill tables they could use, and that nobody really had a monopoly on anything. Hence the Necromunda 1.5 house equipment lists were a total nonsense.

Current Necromunda is really going hard on the houses being individual nation-states, with all the difference that implies. For what it's worth - yes it is daft that an Orlock ganger can't as standard pick up a Lasgun at the trade post and use it. It's creating further difference between house cultures

Both ways have their advantages, in my opinion.

The rules discussion is getting a bit in the weeds for the news and rumors board. Please take it to the specialist games forum.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/57.page

I guess once all 6 house books come out it would be clearer.
Perhaps the trading post would go? Do all the other warbands/crews/groups use it as well?

Trading Post is a staple of Necromunda and is universal to all gangs. However GW hasn't reprinted it since 2018 and only made some additions to it (in 2019).

I don't think it will go away, but I expect the rules (and the choices) may be rewritten once they'll decide to redo the core rules.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if eventually, options asking you to modify your miniatures will be less than before. The pattern for current GW is more to stick to what the miniature kits offer rather than looking for something they don't have.

Which, if you ask me, is kind of completely contrary to what Necromunda has always been about.

 Albertorius wrote:
Which, if you ask me, is kind of completely contrary to what Necromunda has always been about.

People said that for Warhammer Battle. Then we got AoS, and the clear tendancy of warscrolls only having rules for miniature sold as they are. No more options to use other weapons that aren't sold in the box.

So I wouldn't count too much on that being an unmoved truth. It's just a standard of a past time. It can change. Like the Rebel Lord's options.

But weirdly they keep including special characters that will never get a model.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But weirdly they keep including special characters that will never get a model.

Or releasing special characters who didn't exist in the books anyway (Doc Arachnos, Ragnir Gunnstein). FW does weird things indeed...

Sarouan wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Which, if you ask me, is kind of completely contrary to what Necromunda has always been about.

People said that for Warhammer Battle. Then we got AoS, and the clear tendancy of warscrolls only having rules for miniature sold as they are. No more options to use other weapons that aren't sold in the box.

So I wouldn't count too much on that being an unmoved truth. It's just a standard of a past time. It can change. Like the Rebel Lord's options.

Last time I checked, WFB was not a low count, skirmish campaign driven game, was it? Necromunda is.

The point of Necromunda is to see you gang grow, organically, though the campaign. Arbitrarily limiting stuff just because runs contrary to that. Completely.

Of course it can change. But maybe then it's a new game. Much like AoS is a new game, instead of a new WFB edition.

Say, for example, GW could totally make an Underworlds clone set in the Underhive. Of course they could. And they could call it Underhive Wars or somesuch, and people would understand "hey, a new game set in Necromunda" and not "hey, a new edition of Necromunda".

If you keep the name, then you keep the assumptions, though. And well, there's campaign mode still.

 Albertorius wrote:

If you keep the name, then you keep the assumptions, though.

That only works for the players who have known the old game. The new players ? They get the game as it is sold. They can accept it more easily, since they don't have the same experience than the others. Or bias.

And well, there's campaign mode still.

Just hope to never get campaign mode like in Warcry.

Sarouan wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

If you keep the name, then you keep the assumptions, though.

That only works for the players who have known the old game. The new players ? They get the game as it is sold. They can accept it more easily, since they don't have the same experience than the others. Or bias.

Yes, that's usually the main part of a game's fandom and player base. And they usually mingle with the new ones, too, so assumptions tend to get passed on, too.

Anyways, it's not a matter of "working", it's a matter of, when you do a new "edition" of a game, you do it precisely to capitalize on the existing fan base, not to try and rely completely on new players... if you do that, there's no actual merit on using the same name.

Specialist games studio is not the main games studio. Different boss, different target market, different ethos. The same “rules” don’t apply.

GW hold the fund and SG studio had to follow certain direction for the game. If they want game to be simplified, SG had to comply, if they want the new game to be play on hex board, SG had to follow, 2D Necromunda existed for that reason.

That said, I wouldn't call current Necromunda "simplified"

 Albertorius wrote:
That said, I wouldn't call current Necromunda "simplified"

The hand to hand combat in OG Necromunda alone is more complicated than the entire Numunda rule, lol.

Chopstick wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
That said, I wouldn't call current Necromunda "simplified"

The hand to hand combat in OG Necromunda alone is more complicated than the entire Numunda rule, lol.

Sure, close combat is easier. Most everything else, but particularly gang creation, stash management and tactic cards management? That's inordinately complicated, particularly for what it brings to the table in comparison.

I mean, at least the old combat tried to make better combatants more dangerous. Current gang creation, access to weapons, trading post rules and tactic cards (OMG, those tactics cards) seem to be complication for complication's sake.

But yes, close combat is easier.