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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Kanluwen wrote:
From the GW Facebook, to someone grousing about "bUt mAh jUviEs!!1!":
they call themselves prospects, but they full-fill a similar role, albeit typically with heavier armament than the juves of yesteryear.
So what about my Juves? This basically confirms that they're doing away with them, which contradicts what they said on FB the last time this came up.



Starting to think that that was clearly false.

And Kan, I really do love your attitude. Endlessly complaints they messed up your precious Skitarii by combining them with Ad-Mech, but when someone says they want regular Juves and Juve mins your basically "Ok boomer!". You never cease to amaze me, even after all these years.

JWBS wrote:
Juves of yesyeryear very much implies that Juves are a thing of the past.
That's what worries me.

But don't worry guys! Necromunda will be out of Early Access eventually! *nervous laughter*




This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/02/09 22:35:43


   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:

But don't worry guys! Necromunda will be out of Early Access eventually! *nervous laughter*


Better hope not because then GW is done with it.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
From the GW Facebook, to someone grousing about "bUt mAh jUviEs!!1!":
they call themselves prospects, but they full-fill a similar role, albeit typically with heavier armament than the juves of yesteryear.
So what about my Juves? This basically confirms that they're doing away with them, which contradicts what they said on FB the last time this came up.

Starting to think that that was clearly false.

And Kan, I really do love your attitude. Endlessly complaints they messed up your precious Skitarii by combining them with Ad-Mech, but when someone says they want regular Juves and Juve mins your basically "Ok boomer!". You never cease to amaze me, even after all these years.

JWBS wrote:
Juves of yesyeryear very much implies that Juves are a thing of the past.
That's what worries me.

But don't worry guys! Necromunda will be out of Early Access eventually! *nervous laughter*

What do you mean by "regular Juves"? What specific qualities define a regular Juve, to you? For each quality you list, please explain how you consider it important.

These new forgeling babies might work almost exactly like Juves currently do, in all but name.

If, ultimately, they turn out to be:

weaker-than-ganger statline + reduced hiring cost + list of available equipment +(if we're lucky) house-specific special rule

What would your objection be? In what way would you feel that the design has denied you something meaningful compared to the current Juve paradigm?

A lot of the Necromunda-related complaining from the past few years has been deeply informed by a wimpy, entitled resistance to any sort of evolution of the old design/background, and it seems primarily motivated by thoughtless and un-self-critical nostalgia. Nostalgia is not adequate justification for stagnation. Among the greatest flaws in Oldcromunda was the comparative uniformity of most of the gangs, and one of the best instincts of the Newcromunda design has been an unflagging effort to make each gang different from the next. Across the board Juves are still pretty underwhelming, however. Here and there you see something like the Escher Juve, which has the bare minimum key characteristics to actually give them a role, but for the most part Juves are not worth serious consideration in this system, outside of roleplay-centric decisions.

A lot of that comes down to the dumb new experience system, but since they don't seem keen on fixing that I heartily welcome a second go at Juve statlines (perhaps buttressed by special rules) to make them relevant in the game.

If your core objection revolves around the loss of a piece of terminology -- "Juve" -- then that's crazy. I'd also suggest that putting so much weight on a word is a shallow interpretation of the background. "Juve" isn't a rigid battlefield designation, it's real-world-informed in-universe slang. All of the new youthful fighter types in each gang will still be Juves even if there's no statline anywhere that has "Juve" typed above it.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






As long as they can be equipped with traditional juve gear them replacing the juves is obviously fine. It is only a problem if all they can take is these new weird weapons.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




Manchester, England

 Crimson wrote:
As long as they can be equipped with traditional juve gear them replacing the juves is obviously fine. It is only a problem if all they can take is these new weird weapons.


But Juves were always restricted to a more limited set of weapons, weren't they? That being the case, why does it make TOO much difference if those weapons are individualised even further?

It looks, to me, as though GW is simply evolving the idea of what a "Juve" is.

That's fine by me.

I cut my teeth in gaming on old Necromunda, Mordheim and Blood Bowl. I'm a sci fi guy at heart but Mordheim was the absolute king of the game systems, for me, encompassing everything I ever wanted from a skirmish game with an experience system. Necromunda and Mordheim were similar-ish games, with one generally regarded as the sci-fi/fantasy counterpart of the other. And that's a fair comparison. But one thing Mordheim did far better than old Necromunda was have much better variety within your small group of fighters, with differing troop types making up their own "mini" warbands inside your main outfit. And that was sorely missing from Necromunda.

If we're starting to see that sort of diversification within the existing Necromunda gangs then I'm all for it. If that means the generic "Juve" is replaced by a number of different archetypes, I really don't see how we're "losing" anything at all.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Well, if 'juves' can no longer have their old gear choices, then that's what we would be losing. Adding new options is great, but removing the existing ones would be kinda dick move.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 Crimson wrote:
Well, if 'juves' can no longer have their old gear choices, then that's what we would be losing. Adding new options is great, but removing the existing ones would be kinda dick move.

It always sucks when new rules invalidate models.

But at the same time, there haven't been any Juve models released for this game, so for the most part there isn't really anything to invalidate. In a few cases people may have done very effort-heavy conversions that could be at risk, and that's sad. Overall, a lot of Juve conversions are likely based on the ganger kits, and can probably be repurposed.

Anyone out there expecting their 20 year old metal Juves to stay legal is a complete psychopath.

All that aside, my personal preference is for a very open gear-scape, so I hope the new yoofs don't have many restrictions. It seems unlikely that they will (although I wouldn't be surprised if there was confusion akin to the "Can Subjugators use trading post weapons?" issue if the Juves 2.0 have their own equipment lists).
   
Made in gb
Deadshot Weapon Moderati





 Altruizine wrote:
"Juve" isn't a rigid battlefield designation, it's real-world-informed in-universe slang.

That, Captain Obvious, is what makes it important. I don't take a slice of lime with my Tequila for the vitamin C.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Nice rant, but I think I can answer this a little more succinctly than your your wonderfully off-base and accusatory screed:

 Altruizine wrote:
What do you mean by "regular Juves"?
These ones:



Duh.

 Altruizine wrote:
What would your objection be?
That still in print rules are being invalidated and replaced.

Again, duh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 04:47:49


   
Made in nl
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






your mind

The new prospect models are too polished. Look wealthy. Necro gang members start out desperate. That is why they become gangers. New prospect models look like they just walked out of Walmart with a new chainsaw purchased with their mom's credit card. This is not game evolution. This is marketing driving game design. Again. Juves made Necro realistic in that they represented that desperation of the underhive to go into conflict unarmed or minimally armed ... risk. Prospects... not so much. Opposite actually. Now it is just paintball for rich kids on a kitchen table. My opinion this is a net loss for the hobby. Again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 06:21:00


   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Chairman Aeon wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:

But don't worry guys! Necromunda will be out of Early Access eventually! *nervous laughter*


Better hope not because then GW is done with it.

GW should abandon this game instead of reinventing the wheels. The community needs peace to fix this game proper.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

These new forgeling babies might work almost exactly like Juves currently do, in all but name.
they are different! No current juve can carry those weapons. Why put a 120 credit weapon on a 25 credit fighter? Absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jeff white wrote:
The new prospect models are too polished. Look wealthy. Necro gang members start out desperate. That is why they become gangers. New prospect models look like they just walked out of Walmart with a new chainsaw purchased with their mom's credit card. This is not game evolution. This is marketing driving game design. Again. Juves made Necro realistic in that they represented that desperation of the underhive to go into conflict unarmed or minimally armed ... risk. Prospects... not so much. Opposite actually. Now it is just paintball for rich kids on a kitchen table. My opinion this is a net loss for the hobby. Again.
This! These new releases don't. Improve the game, they improve economy.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/10 11:19:46


 
   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber





Affton, MO. USA

 jeff white wrote:
The new prospect models are too polished. Look wealthy. Necro gang members start out desperate. That is why they become gangers. New prospect models look like they just walked out of Walmart with a new chainsaw purchased with their mom's credit card. This is not game evolution. This is marketing driving game design. Again. Juves made Necro realistic in that they represented that desperation of the underhive to go into conflict unarmed or minimally armed ... risk. Prospects... not so much. Opposite actually. Now it is just paintball for rich kids on a kitchen table. My opinion this is a net loss for the hobby. Again.

I see prospects not as juves, but as prospects. Juves that the gang leaders have picked out as being more capable, cunning, or in the case of Goliaths having the proper bone structure to develop massive muscle load. It’s like high school baseball players, you may have a few on a team that will play college level baseball and maybe a couple that will play minor league ball, but some coaches will go a lifetime without ever having a true prospect who will go straight to the major league and make a name for themselves. To me those are the prospects. When teams have them they make sure they have all the training time, field time, tutors, equipment and anything else they need. In this case they are given better equipment to start with in hopes that one day they will become the next great leader/specialist/ murder master.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






But all the 'Books of' and 'House of' are expansions? Therefore optional?

Peeps wanting to play just the main rules can totally do that if they want to. Indeed, I'd wager any campaign trying to incorporate everything at once is going to be cumbersome to say the least.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm all for the change - the limited armament options for juves made them rather boring - whereas if each gang's prospects is more closely tied to their core theme - and bear those weapons which are a huge risk so that none might even survive - it makes their inclusion much more cinematic. Which is the experience I want from the game.
   
Made in at
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Stockholm, Sweden

These prospects seem to be to juves like champions are to regular gangers. ”Juve champions” in a sense.

Oguhmek paints Orks (and Necrons): 'Ere we go!
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Brilliant, let’s hope they go even further. I want Juve Juves, even weaker Juves armed only with sticks.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 H.B.M.C. wrote:


 Altruizine wrote:
What would your objection be?
That still in print rules are being invalidated and replaced.

Again, duh.

Every codex/armybook/battletome/whatever else they've started calling them ever released has invalidated and replaced rules.

 jeff white wrote:
The new prospect models are too polished. Look wealthy. Necro gang members start out desperate. That is why they become gangers. New prospect models look like they just walked out of Walmart with a new chainsaw purchased with their mom's credit card. This is not game evolution. This is marketing driving game design. Again. Juves made Necro realistic in that they represented that desperation of the underhive to go into conflict unarmed or minimally armed ... risk. Prospects... not so much. Opposite actually. Now it is just paintball for rich kids on a kitchen table. My opinion this is a net loss for the hobby. Again.

This ship sailed two years ago. Gangs are not desperate outlaws anymore, they're paramilitaries who can wear combinations of armour that would make a Terminator jealous, and locate a dude who will sell them a melta pistol the likes of which was once only available to the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 13:53:56


 
   
Made in gb
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




Manchester, England

Exactly.

I love Necromunda but I don't feel like I'm losing anything if this expansion adds more ganger archetypes that can be accessed outside of Hired Guns and hangers on. I'll happily throw my Juves under the bus.

Especially since... y'know... that's the point of them...

I don't really get people getting upset at the idea that GW are trying to push new models... like... yeah...?

So I had a metal Goliath gang from the 1990s that slowly wore out over the years of stagnation. About a decade ago, some friends decided to do some "vintage" GW games. I cannibalised my old Goliaths, what I had left, to construct a new gang; I stripped the metal models I still had left and built newer models out of marine scouts, chaos marauders, and whatever else I had lying around. In the end, I replaced all of my metal Goliaths apart from the two Juves I had while also supplementing them with a female Juve I converted from a Foundry model... Ahead of the curve!

Spoiler:




Anyway, my point is that when the new Necromunda miniatures came out, I was excited but also wondered whether they would "fit" with my existing gang or not. As it turned out, the new Goliaths obviously were fantastic, but since I already had a Goliath gang I didn't plump for them. I had all the Goliaths, Champions and Juves I needed.

Now? I'm changing my mind. I might.... might end up buying into the new Goliaths. My gang is still legal. It still works (I think?) but the new miniatures are good enough that I'm very interested.

What am I losing? If I end up replacing my converted gang completely with the new miniatures, with variations my current gang doesn't cover, how exactly am I losing out? My figures still exist, I still spent a great deal of time and effort creating them (particularly the guns... these were made WAY before autoguns became a "thing" again, the only source for them was still the old metal Necromunda sprues or the Dark Vengeance Cultists, so I had to make my own).

So even though I have a full gang of miniatures I love, even I still don't feel like GW are deliberately ganking me by... giving me... more stuff.......
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 ekwatts wrote:

I don't really get people getting upset at the idea that GW are trying to push new models... like... yeah...?


I don't really get how people who feel the need to rubbish other people's views on new releases always have to be so nakedly disingenuous.

It's been pointed out, multiple times, that nobody cares if GW push new models. What people have a problem with is GW taking away existing options. If Prospects are an addition to the options available, fine, cool, more options is nice and if you dislike them you can just not use them, but they should not replace Juves because the two are not equivalent. They're not equivalent in aesthetic, they'e not equivalent in narrative tone, and they're not equivalent in terms of their role during a game(unless people are going to argue that those bigass fancy weapons are going to cost the same as a couple of stubguns or a knife & autopistol, in which case we're just back to "GW can't design games" because that would be sheer farce).

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But all the 'Books of' and 'House of' are expansions? Therefore optional?

Peeps wanting to play just the main rules can totally do that if they want to. Indeed, I'd wager any campaign trying to incorporate everything at once is going to be cumbersome to say the least.

Yes and no. Some new player got all the shiny new toys and joins a group, and they say no, we don't allow those? That sucks! We play with different people and discuss both locally and globally. I'd prefer if we discussed the same game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clockpunk wrote:
I'm all for the change - the limited armament options for juves made them rather boring - whereas if each gang's prospects is more closely tied to their core theme - and bear those weapons which are a huge risk so that none might even survive - it makes their inclusion much more cinematic. Which is the experience I want from the game.

This was how juves originally were, except they rarely had expensive weapons. They had cheap and simple weapons. And they rarely survived. Those who did survive more often than not became legends. The way you describe it sounds like GW is reinventing the wheel. Nobody asked for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Oguhmek wrote:
These prospects seem to be to juves like champions are to regular gangers. ”Juve champions” in a sense.

Yes! I wrote a lengthy complaint about it over at yaktribe, comparing it to 40k. Used this to summarize:

https://yaktribe.games/community/threads/the-sump-an-n17-venting-thread.6767/page-116#post-220367


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ekwatts wrote:

I don't really get people getting upset at the idea that GW are trying to push new models... like... yeah...?

Nobody is upset about new models. I got all the new gangs, the forgeworld weapon packs, the pets, brutes.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/02/10 15:04:43


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 Yodhrin wrote:
 ekwatts wrote:

I don't really get people getting upset at the idea that GW are trying to push new models... like... yeah...?


I don't really get how people who feel the need to rubbish other people's views on new releases always have to be so nakedly disingenuous.

It's been pointed out, multiple times, that nobody cares if GW push new models. What people have a problem with is GW taking away existing options. If Prospects are an addition to the options available, fine, cool, more options is nice and if you dislike them you can just not use them, but they should not replace Juves because the two are not equivalent. They're not equivalent in aesthetic, they'e not equivalent in narrative tone, and they're not equivalent in terms of their role during a game(unless people are going to argue that those bigass fancy weapons are going to cost the same as a couple of stubguns or a knife & autopistol, in which case we're just back to "GW can't design games" because that would be sheer farce).

At the moment Juves do not have an aesthetic or role in the game.

They have an aesthetic and role in a game from 20 years ago, and a token presence in a living game.

   
Made in jp
Sister Oh-So Repentia



Stuck in the snow.

 Yodhrin wrote:
 ekwatts wrote:

I don't really get people getting upset at the idea that GW are trying to push new models... like... yeah...?


I don't really get how people who feel the need to rubbish other people's views on new releases always have to be so nakedly disingenuous.

It's been pointed out, multiple times, that nobody cares if GW push new models. What people have a problem with is GW taking away existing options. If Prospects are an addition to the options available, fine, cool, more options is nice and if you dislike them you can just not use them, but they should not replace Juves because the two are not equivalent. They're not equivalent in aesthetic, they'e not equivalent in narrative tone, and they're not equivalent in terms of their role during a game(unless people are going to argue that those bigass fancy weapons are going to cost the same as a couple of stubguns or a knife & autopistol, in which case we're just back to "GW can't design games" because that would be sheer farce).


Because it's infuriating to have to wade through the same tired comments from the same outspoken handful of people every time GW makes even the slightest change to something whether it's rules, lore, or models.

You're honestly throwing a fit about potentially losing the ability to have your crap redshirts start with a pistol/knife rather than some other obligatory starting weapon? And this is bad because it's "taking away existing options" but would be okay if "[they] are in addition to the options available"?

YOU of all people who incessantly throws gakstorms about Roboute Guilliman returning, Primaris releases, and post-Gathering Storm lore? None of which invalidated anything about the pre-Gathering Storm lore/setting nor prompted the invalidation of any models/rules?
(At best you can argue the Primaris named characters, however that happened incredibly recently [well after you started complaining] and also all aforementioned characters still have non-primaris rules in Legends)

But I guess you could "just not them" huh?
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances






Jack Flask wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
 ekwatts wrote:

I don't really get people getting upset at the idea that GW are trying to push new models... like... yeah...?


I don't really get how people who feel the need to rubbish other people's views on new releases always have to be so nakedly disingenuous.

It's been pointed out, multiple times, that nobody cares if GW push new models. What people have a problem with is GW taking away existing options. If Prospects are an addition to the options available, fine, cool, more options is nice and if you dislike them you can just not use them, but they should not replace Juves because the two are not equivalent. They're not equivalent in aesthetic, they'e not equivalent in narrative tone, and they're not equivalent in terms of their role during a game(unless people are going to argue that those bigass fancy weapons are going to cost the same as a couple of stubguns or a knife & autopistol, in which case we're just back to "GW can't design games" because that would be sheer farce).


Because it's infuriating to have to wade through the same tired comments from the same outspoken handful of people every time GW makes even the slightest change to something whether it's rules, lore, or models.

You're honestly throwing a fit about potentially losing the ability to have your crap redshirts start with a pistol/knife rather than some other obligatory starting weapon? And this is bad because it's "taking away existing options" but would be okay if "[they] are in addition to the options available"?

YOU of all people who incessantly throws gakstorms about Roboute Guilliman returning, Primaris releases, and post-Gathering Storm lore? None of which invalidated anything about the pre-Gathering Storm lore/setting nor prompted the invalidation of any models/rules?
(At best you can argue the Primaris named characters, however that happened incredibly recently [well after you started complaining] and also all aforementioned characters still have non-primaris rules in Legends)

But I guess you could "just not them" huh?
Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe I've been playing the game all wrong, or I'm confused from past editions... I don't think of juves as "red shirts".... In many gangs juves are the only way to make up for any of the short comings of your faction and are also critical to longevity of campaign play. Are there factions that use them as fodder, sure, but its kinda critical for balancing those faction that become untenable in a campaign without something like fodder. Forcing you to take a model in place of juves, that has to come with a special or heavy weapons is either imbalanced or too expensive to be practical. If in a campaign players have a gang member die, they often times don't have the credits to get more than a juve with the cheapest weapons. Its a change that makes me think the game designer isn't playing thier own game in the way they intend, but are just playing a lot of one offs.

While I don't think all gangs use their juves as fodder... as a tactic, what is wrong with that?-I mean do we really want a skirmish game to become more tactically limited?

My issue with this is that its a significant pivot from what they said their goals for this edition were. They said they intended to start in the depths of the underhive, releasing book after book working their way up an out of the hive, giving us new settings, campaigns, and factions as they go. We could make a pretty long list of things that have been teased that don't have models, don't have rules, or imply new elements of game play that aren't represented. Thats before we consider the variety of locations they've talked about and also aren't represented in any meaningful way.

Even Dark Uprising was something of a deviation from their stated goals but it was at least somewhere on the spectrum and expanded on previously introduced elements and gave us better terrain, and was something like how people envisioned significant additions to be introduced. I have issue with these new models beause it represents a fork in the road... either we live with real implications of game balance while GW gets back on track, or we spend the next two years waiting for GW to work through each existing gang to give them the equivalent book and sprue release. I love the last three books we got for Necromunda and I was looking forward to more... I can't say I care much for expanded Goliaths and the real implication of seeing each gang addressed in an individual book with an individual sprue for the next 6 or 7 quarters.... I would rather GW continue with their originally stated plan, in the least they could better use this time to give us the gangs from previous editions that still haven't been updated... or the models for some of the units that already have rules.

Not that I'd have been happy with a new edition, but when they're readdressing each faction like they are it makes me think dark uprising should have been the start of a new edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 17:33:18


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 aka_mythos wrote:


But I guess you could "just not them" huh?
Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe I've been playing the game all wrong, or I'm confused from past editions... I don't think of juves as "red shirts".... In many gangs juves are the only way to make up for any of the short comings of your faction and are also critical to longevity of campaign play. Are there factions that use them as fodder, sure, but its kinda critical for balancing those faction that become untenable in a campaign without something like fodder. Forcing you to take a model in place of juves, that has to come with a special or heavy weapons is either imbalanced or too expensive to be practical. If in a campaign players have a gang member die, they often times don't have the credits to get more than a juve with the cheapest weapons. Its a change that makes me think the game designer isn't playing thier own game in the way they intend, but are just playing a lot of one offs.

You definitely might be playing the game wrong (depending on your objectives, of course).

As it stands, a Juve isn't worth taking over a Ganger. The amount of time and experience it takes to get a Juve up to the statline a Ganger starts out with is too demanding. Throughout that period the Juve will be occupying a Crew spot in all scenarios that use random or limited Crew Size, while doing less effective work in-game than a Ganger would be doing. The Juve will also be influencing the fighter type ratio in your gang and making it more difficult to hire additional Champions.

There are very few scenarios where you would want to spend a limited treasury on a Juve, even if it's all you can afford. If you do that you'll be paying a hidden price for dozens of games as the Juve gets up to snuff. The opportunity cost of hiring the Juve instead of waiting a game and hiring a Ganger is too high. The only time you'd want to do this is if, for some reason, it is EXTREMELY important for you to win your next game, and you're willing to mortgage your future for the immediate advantage of an extra model on the board, pending scenario selection.

I don't know why people keep alluding to these guys "having to take" heavy weapons. Do Van Saar gangers "have to take" close combat loadouts with shock staves and shields? Do Enforcers "have to" send their gang out with nothing but a stubgun on 3/4 of the team? The weapons provided in a kit haven't had any relation to what a fighter may or may not equip to this point in the game.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Luke82 wrote:
Brilliant, let’s hope they go even further. I want Juve Juves, even weaker Juves armed only with sticks.

DUMPSTER BABY HAMMER FIGHT.

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Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Baxx wrote:

Yes! I wrote a lengthy complaint about it over at yaktribe, comparing it to 40k. Used this to summarize:

This size comparison is not even remotely accurate...

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Deadshot Weapon Moderati





I'm not really sure what the point of it is tbh. Stuff has gotten bigger, sure (and it's something that I like but that's irrelevant). It seems that the main complaint is "They've added new stuff to 40K" whereas, imo, the real complaint should be "They've added some real fugly stuff to 40K". Meh, all subjective I suppose. That would be my gripe about this pic though.
   
Made in nl
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






your mind

 Theophony wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
The new prospect models are too polished. Look wealthy. Necro gang members start out desperate. That is why they become gangers. New prospect models look like they just walked out of Walmart with a new chainsaw purchased with their mom's credit card. This is not game evolution. This is marketing driving game design. Again. Juves made Necro realistic in that they represented that desperation of the underhive to go into conflict unarmed or minimally armed ... risk. Prospects... not so much. Opposite actually. Now it is just paintball for rich kids on a kitchen table. My opinion this is a net loss for the hobby. Again.

I see prospects not as juves, but as prospects. Juves that the gang leaders have picked out as being more capable, cunning, or in the case of Goliaths having the proper bone structure to develop massive muscle load. It’s like high school baseball players, you may have a few on a team that will play college level baseball and maybe a couple that will play minor league ball, but some coaches will go a lifetime without ever having a true prospect who will go straight to the major league and make a name for themselves. To me those are the prospects. When teams have them they make sure they have all the training time, field time, tutors, equipment and anything else they need. In this case they are given better equipment to start with in hopes that one day they will become the next great leader/specialist/ murder master.


"Teams"?

None of this addresses the aesthetics.

Sure one might argue that it smooths the transition into full ganger status but the look us just that... too sporty. Too team-y.

Want bigger juves for added realism. Sure.
College ball...
More realism in character development? Ok...

But the models zuck.

Can one play Necro without zucky prospect models?
If conversions are still a thing i guess...

But how is it that this isn't seen as marketeers just looking for excuses to bloat the model line when what is necessary is to improve existing gameplay using existing models until I suppose everything runs great and bloat is warranted?


Now what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Altruizine wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:


 Altruizine wrote:
What would your objection be?
That still in print rules are being invalidated and replaced.

Again, duh.

Every codex/armybook/battletome/whatever else they've started calling them ever released has invalidated and replaced rules.

 jeff white wrote:
The new prospect models are too polished. Look wealthy. Necro gang members start out desperate. That is why they become gangers. New prospect models look like they just walked out of Walmart with a new chainsaw purchased with their mom's credit card. This is not game evolution. This is marketing driving game design. Again. Juves made Necro realistic in that they represented that desperation of the underhive to go into conflict unarmed or minimally armed ... risk. Prospects... not so much. Opposite actually. Now it is just paintball for rich kids on a kitchen table. My opinion this is a net loss for the hobby. Again.

This ship sailed two years ago. Gangs are not desperate outlaws anymore, they're paramilitaries who can wear combinations of armour that would make a Terminator jealous, and locate a dude who will sell them a melta pistol the likes of which was once only available to the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels.


As I wrote above - "again".

Moreover the fallacious appeal to precedent is ... fallacious.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/10 20:24:21


   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Hey, here’s wild suggestion. Truly wild. Like 100% left field....

Maybe....wait to read the actual background on them first?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Altruizine wrote:
At the moment Juves do not have an aesthetic or role in the game.
Says who? You?

 Altruizine wrote:
... a token presence in a living game.
That's utter tripe. They have just as much of a presence as anything else in the game.

   
 
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