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BaronIveagh wrote:I was somewhat baffled to find that quite a bit of the book was about chaos.

Why? Chaos make up a large portion of Deathwatch's setting, so why is their inclusion in the setting's bestiary book at all surprising?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why? Chaos make up a large portion of Deathwatch's setting, so why is their inclusion in the setting's bestiary book at all surprising?

Probably a hold over from mistaken idea that the Deathwatch was a chamber of the Ordo Xenos, not, say, Malleus.

It's not that (being space marines) they wouldn't fight chaos on sight, but that's not the remit of this group of space marines. Usually when dealing specifically with hoards of daemons and other chaos horrors I think of these other space marines that have their own book for this game, IIRC. It would have made more sense if more of the chaos stuff was there.

BaronIveagh wrote:Probably a hold over from mistaken idea that the Deathwatch was a chamber of the Ordo Xenos, not, say, Malleus.

You're still not getting it. They are the anti-xenos force they have always been, but Deathwatch, the game, isn't about the Deathwatch organisation across the whole Imperium. It's about the Deathwatch within the Jericho Reach, a place that has a significant percentage of Chaos forces, Chaos forces that threaten the mission of the Deathwatch, and thus they must be dealt with.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I was somewhat baffled to find that quite a bit of the book was about chaos.

Why? Chaos make up a large portion of Deathwatch's setting, so why is their inclusion in the setting's bestiary book at all surprising?

If I bought the necron codex and found out a third of the book was actually about orks, I'd also be surprised regardless of whether or not that content was useful. Similarly, if you title a book Mark of Xenos and 1/3 isn't about xenos (since neither daemons nor humans in their various flavors are xenos), you shouldn't be surprised that some people will be disappointed especially since it had a relatively anemic page count. This isn't the same thing as with First Founding where we imagined tons of chaos lore at the mere mention of chaos legions.

The idea it represents the goings on at Jericho Reach, is perfectly good, but contextually its a game about a group that specializes in fighting Xenos... so when a book is titled "Mark of Xenos" its more than fair to assume that is the only focus of that book. HBMC, what you're saying makes sense from the context of this very specific sub-setting... but in the context of the overall setting its misleading.

Imagine a Star Wars RPG book titles "Forces of the Galactic Empire" that then spent the last third of the book on Jabba the Hutt. Or a Star Trek RPG where the book is titled "Villains of the Alpha Quadrant" and then proceeded to take up a significant amount of space on the Borg and Dominion. In those examples and in "Mark of the Xenos" the inclusion of unexpected material that could otherwise support an entirely separate book, seems unnecessary.

Thus its misleading and unnecessary. Is it fun?-Yes, but when you establish expectations you better fulfill them before hanging on the hood ornaments and luxury items.

Chaos is the enemy of all Imperial soldiers. The choice to include Chaos is in my opinion a conscious one simply to make a game that can function as a "Marine" RPG and not just a "Deathwatch Marine" RPG... even if the second one is the stated goal. I'm perfectly alright with that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Probably a hold over from mistaken idea that the Deathwatch was a chamber of the Ordo Xenos, not, say, Malleus.

You're still not getting it. They are the anti-xenos force they have always been, but Deathwatch, the game, isn't about the Deathwatch organisation across the whole Imperium. It's about the Deathwatch within the Jericho Reach, a place that has a significant percentage of Chaos forces, Chaos forces that threaten the mission of the Deathwatch, and thus they must be dealt with.

Yes, but they're interfering with the mission, not the mission itself. Particularly when Daemonhunters was only 150 pages, and would have been a better place for it, as opposed to a book with 'XENOS' actually written in large letters on the cover.

You guys are being far, far, far too literal with the title. "Mark of the Xenos" is a fancy title for the Jerchio Reach Bestiary book. Each line has a bestiary book that builds upon the adversaries contained within the core rulebook - that's the job of a bestiary book after all, to expand the possible adversaries and NPCs that are available within a particular game setting. The fact that Mark of the Xenos contained Chaos is unsurprising and, if we're honest, completely expected because Chaos are part of the Jericho Reach setting. The comparison of buying the Necron Codex and it having Orks is a false comparison, as is the book of the Galactic Empire containing Hutt Clan information.

Why is it so difficult to understand that each of the 40K RPG games is designed to exist within its own (slightly interconnected) bubble. Can you use Deathwatch to play as a Kill-Team anywhere in the galaxy? Sure you can, but the game's support structures (fluff, releases, splat books, etc.) are based around the setting that FFG have created. That setting includes Chaos, just like Rogue Trader's setting doesn't include Tau or Tyranids.

Complaining that the Deathwatch bestiary book contained profiles and rules for creatures that are part of the specific setting for that game makes about as much sense as complaining that Rogue Trader doesn't have any Tyranid ships, or that Dark Heresy lacks Necron profiles. Neither of those things are part of those games, therefore they don't get described. Would it be nice to have them? Sure, but these books are not there to cater to any and all possibilities, they are there to cater to the setting they have created, and if you don't like that particular setting then too bad! Adapt. Write your own. it's what I did for Dark Heresy.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You guys are being far, far, far too literal with the title. "Mark of the Xenos" is a fancy title for the Jerchio Reach Bestiary book. Each line has a bestiary book that builds upon the adversaries contained within the core rulebook - that's the job of a bestiary book after all, to expand the possible adversaries and NPCs that are available within a particular game setting. The fact that Mark of the Xenos contained Chaos is unsurprising and, if we're honest, completely expected because Chaos are part of the Jericho Reach setting. The comparison of buying the Necron Codex and it having Orks is a false comparison, as is the book of the Galactic Empire containing Hutt Clan information.

They are appropriate comparisons as significant portions of the book don't match the title. You, as a DH player/ FFG proofreader/ FFG playtester/ FFG writer may have expected the bestiary to contain a significant portion of content peripherally related to the title but not everyone has your benefit of foresight. It was a poor choice of title for what was actually included in the book. Whether or not you agree with that, it seems to be the prevailing opinion here in the thread (as well as in my local players).

I expected the book to be the bestiary book for Deathwatch's setting, and that's exactly what it is. Event he original blurb back in the Litany of War preview mentioned that it would contain daemons.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I expected the book to be the bestiary book for Deathwatch's setting, and that's exactly what it is. Event he original blurb back in the Litany of War preview mentioned that it would contain daemons.

'Contain' does not equate 1/3rd of the book being given over to the ruinous powers. I had pictured something in the vein of stats for demons that were associated with daemon worshiping aliens. Not 'HEEEERRREEEEES ABBADDON!' *cue Johnny Carson intro music.*

I think we've all stated our opinions on the matter and now we're drifting a bit off topic.

Please feel free to start a new thread (not in News & Rumors) discussing the various issues (real or perceived) with the book.

Thanks!

Finally got a fething copy of Fallen Suns, we can finally pick up where we left off.

I ordered mine over a year ago and still haven't got it.

Where did you order it from?

Amazon. They revised it again to Jan 5.

Just throwing in. I recently just picked up mark of the xenos and was kinda confused why 1/3 the book is about chaos....

Don't get me wrong. Having all thows stats and listings is useful. But what I can say is that it was unexpected.

I was expecting a book "Mark of the Xeno" to deal more in depth with well.... xenos. specially when the game is about the Deathwatch/Xeno hunters. Yah sure they cover all the major xenos, and some minor xenos. But it feels like thier was still so much they could of covered!

-What about Genestealer Cultists, Genestealer Hybrids, and Genestealer Patriarch?
-What about updating the Xeno Generation rules from the Dark Herasey DM kit to Deathwatch rules/power level?

It just feels that for a book called "Mark of the xenos", their is so much more xeno material they could of covered. Let alone using Chaos material to essentially "pad it out".


Agien. It's not that the Chaos stuff isn't useful. In all honesty It's going to be very useful in the black crusade campaign I'm running. It just seems that their was more they could do.

The whole thing about chaos inclusion reminds me of the first time our st/dm whatever you wanna call him heard you could use gk stuff from daemonhunter in deathwatch. haha

BaronIveagh wrote:Amazon. They revised it again to Jan 5.

Just another reason why ordering from Amazon is a bad idea. The books been out for months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lockark wrote:-What about Genestealer Cultists, Genestealer Hybrids, and Genestealer Patriarch?

You're assuming that such a thing still exists in 40K. It's certainly a concept that hasn't been openly acknowledged or talked about since 2nd Ed.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lockark wrote:-What about Genestealer Cultists, Genestealer Hybrids, and Genestealer Patriarch?

You're assuming that such a thing still exists in 40K. It's certainly a concept that hasn't been openly acknowledged or talked about since 2nd Ed.

I was pretty sure they were mentioned in the Necromunda and Inquisitor rule books. By the same logic adeptus arbites don't exist any more because they don't talk about them that much.

=|

(I also seem to remember them being named dropped in other the 3rd ed or 4th ed nid codex.....)

I'm pretty sure they still exist, and in all honesty really under used. They make a nice alternative to the Chaos cult most PC's expect.

"That much" is different to "At all".

The Arbites exist. There's even an entire book about them now, and novels dedicated to them. Genestealer Cults? Find me the last overt reference to Hybrids/Magi/Patriarchs?

'Necromunda' and 'Inquisitor'? They're very old sources.

H.B.M.C. wrote:"That much" is different to "At all".

The Arbites exist. There's even an entire book about them now, and novels dedicated to them. Genestealer Cults? Find me the last overt reference to Hybrids/Magi/Patriarchs?

'Necromunda' and 'Inquisitor'? They're very old sources.

Never knew the new Space Hulk board game was a old source. I guess by your count if something has noot been printed for 2 years then it's old.
=P

Pg.47 of the mission book bassicly mentions them. Well they don't call it a "genestealer cult", they describe it to the letter. Even the 4 stages of hybrids.


Positive I remember the same description in the nid books.


I feel I can quite safely say the concept of the Genestealer cult still and will always exist. (I assume they have been keeping lose in alot of details encase they ever want to revisit the idea, but mix up the older fluff.)

Yeah but nothing is overt. Genestealer Cults are in that limbo stage between being part of the 40K fluff and being Squats.

And I never said Space Hulk was an old source. I said Necro and Inquisitor were. Please don't put words in my mouth.

In current fluff Genestealer Cults still exist but Patriarch was replaced by Broodlord and there seems to be no Magus any more. If you ask me I like that new version more than old one.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah but nothing is overt. Genestealer Cults are in that limbo stage between being part of the 40K fluff and being Squats.

And I never said Space Hulk was an old source. I said Necro and Inquisitor were. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Point is they still sell the Necro and Inquisitor games, and most of the fluff from thows books are still considered "Canon". (Or as close to cannon as you get in 40k.)

Genestealer reproduction and hybrids are still described in the fluff, and genestealer hypnotiseing humans is also still in the fluff.

Heck. Even in Mark of the xeno mentions hybrids and their birthing cycle. They don't go into detail, but it's still a clear sign of the idea is still thier. They also do talk about the Mind control aspects of genestealers, and how they "implant" DND into people. Read the rules for "Genestealer Kiss". The infected host will give birth to a Genestealr hybrid, that then they are compelled to love and protect with their lives.

That's the whole concept behind the genestealer cult!

I REALY doubt they are planning to "squat" the Genestealer cult from the fluff when they keep printing references to it in one way or the other.

What I AM expecting is GW will probably wants to revisit/revise the idea, thus why they have been keeping vague on the details. Fluff can always change like we see with the crons'. I accept that. Genestealer cults in time will have evolved alot since their old fluff, and may not even go by the same name. But I got a feeling their here to stay.


All I have to say is, you wanted new sources? I'm giving you new sources of fluff.

Edit:

Also from what I've been told Genestealer cults are mentioned by name in a story from the "Planetkill" anthology, and in Xenology. Sure it's Black library. But it's still something.

Shadow Walker wrote:In current fluff Genestealer Cults still exist but Patriarch was replaced by Broodlord and there seems to be no Magus any more. If you ask me I like that new version more than old one.

I noticed that also. In all honesty the Broodlord is almost a Patriarch by another name in all honesty. But I'm not convinced the Magus is gone. 4th gene hybrids that look completely human, and mind controlled humans are still in the fluff. The Magus is basically the "human" face/mouth pieace of the cult/Broodlord/Patriarch. A figure/role that makes allot of scene from a story perspective.

I always liked the Genestealer cult for the fact it "humanizes" the nids in a way that made them alot scarier to me. (Mind controlling aliens Vs. omnomnomnom. It sort of brings the horrror of the nids to a more personal level.)

They're also covered in a couple of the Ciaphas Cain novels, can't remember the exact ones off the top of my head though

The very first one features them quite heavily during the last act.

That's the one, with the Tau etc. They also feature to a much lesser extent in the short at the start of the second omnibus iirc

Ah yes, the magical whore house.

Shadow Walker wrote:In current fluff Genestealer Cults still exist but Patriarch was replaced by Broodlord and there seems to be no Magus any more.

Which sort of removes most of the point of it. The psychic beacon the Patriarch had that lured the Hive Fleet to worlds seems to have gone as well.

Just out of curiosity HMBC have you heard they are out?

I agree it's odd that they don't even make a sidebar in the nid codex (much less rules) but unlike squats who were openly mocked and pronounced dead I've never seen anything like that for the GS cult.

It would be a shame if true, the cults are one of my personal favs.