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Deathstrike needs the d, ogryns and bullgryns need a points reduction, hydra needs to be bs2 at non flying stuff to make it versatile enough to use.

Plus the obligatory formations. What is really unlikely but I still really want is a new Russ kit. Love tanks, hate the Russ model.

Russes need the Lumbering Behemoth special rule back more than anything else....

Vanquisher needs AP1 and twinlinked (permanent or upgrade) main gun.

 Hawky wrote:
Vanquisher needs AP1 and twinlinked (permanent or upgrade) main gun.

Aye, if the main gun were AP1 and it came with the coaxial heavy stubber, it'd be a pretty solid unit.

Martel732 wrote:
Losing lumbering behemoth killed most of the LRBT variants dead. Not being to put ignores cover on vehicles is also a serious problem. Vehicles sucking in general is yet another big problem.

All it did was make the battlecannon slightly more balanced.


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 Vaktathi wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Vanquisher needs AP1 and twinlinked (permanent or upgrade) main gun.

Aye, if the main gun were AP1 and it came with the coaxial heavy stubber, it'd be a pretty solid unit.

You mean OP. It's great as it is.

You fail at statistics. At the moment:

50% chance to hit per turn
Admittedly very likely to pen on each hit
16.5% chance to explode

Odds are you'll only take out one light-medium vehicle per game.

You pretty much always pen with it, and all you really need to do is get weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You pretty much always pen with it, and all you really need to do is get weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You pretty much always pen with it, and all you really need to do is get weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

You're missing the point. The Vanquisher is supposed to be a Tank-Killer. Right now it's more of an irritant. You miss about half the time. Get a solid pen most of the time. But you rarely get a kill. The Vanquisher is supposedly one of the best Tank-killers the Guard has, but it needs a 6 to do it's job. If I wanted to destroy a weapon or immobilize it I would fire a stock LRBT at the target.

 War Kitten wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You pretty much always pen with it, and all you really need to do is get weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

You're missing the point. The Vanquisher is supposed to be a Tank-Killer. Right now it's more of an irritant. You miss about half the time. Get a solid pen most of the time. But you rarely get a kill. The Vanquisher is supposedly one of the best Tank-killers the Guard has, but it needs a 6 to do it's job. If I wanted to destroy a weapon or immobilize it I would fire a stock LRBT at the target.

Then do that and stop complaining.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You pretty much always pen with it, and all you really need to do is get weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

That depends on the tank.
For a skimmer getting immobilized can be pretty brutal. Weapon destroyed isn't a big deal, since they have a few guns and can afford to lose 1 without being worthless, if we are talking about WS. Raiders are in trouble, which is why they are only good as cheap transports and not fighting platforms.
Razorbacks aren't that concerned about immobilization providing they take the LC/PG (still gives them a good effective range, and they are usually up the field by T2 quite a ways. WD can be harsh on them though.
Predators don't move much at all, and have 3 weapons. Neither result bothers them.
IG tanks don't want to move, and usually have a few guns besides their main cannons except in some corner cases (Basilisks).

In addition, you still need to hit. The hit chance is why PGs into rear armor are often a better bet than a MG. An MG will only hit with 2/3 most of the time, so you need a destroyed result (not to mention being super close). A PG will hit with 4/6, so can HP something down. Also can be further out.
That's somewhat matchup based though.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Deathstrike needs the d, ogryns and bullgryns need a points reduction, hydra needs to be bs2 at non flying stuff to make it versatile enough to use.

Honestly, the Hydra needs to be given Interceptor and they need to bring in the Auto-Targeter from FW, while also granting the Hydra Autocannon two profiles.

Auto-Targeter gave the Hydra the ability to Ignore Cover...provided that it was being granted by Jink(so if a vehicle Jinked, it wouldn't get a Cover save--but if it was entitled to a Cover save from being obscured it would still get it).
One profile gets Interceptor and Skyfire, the other is just Autocannons cranked down to minimum elevation to shred infantry/light vehicles.


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Typically-Wardian wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You pretty much always pen with it, and all you really need to do is get weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

You're missing the point. The Vanquisher is supposed to be a Tank-Killer. Right now it's more of an irritant. You miss about half the time. Get a solid pen most of the time. But you rarely get a kill. The Vanquisher is supposedly one of the best Tank-killers the Guard has, but it needs a 6 to do it's job. If I wanted to destroy a weapon or immobilize it I would fire a stock LRBT at the target.

Then do that and stop complaining.

Heavens forbid players want something priced and billed as a tank killer/monster hunter to actually do what it advertises on the tin!

Do you have anything useful to add?

pax_imperialis wrote:
Deathstrike needs the d, ogryns and bullgryns need a points reduction, hydra needs to be bs2 at non flying stuff to make it versatile enough to use.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You pretty much always pen with it, and all you really need to do is get weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

Remind me again about the hit ratio? What, 50%?
The Vanquisher is THE iconic tank killer of 40K and yet its job can be done better by a regular Battletank or an Exterminator on the flank.

I vote that the Vanquisher gains a +3/+4 on the damage roll.

As to my earlier suggestion, how about giving Russ squadrons Splitfire all the time and increasing the unit coherency to 12"? That way each tank can function in a more independent manner.
If you followed this up with a Veteran Crew option for 10 PPM which gave +1 BS and an option to upgrade one tank per squadron to a Squadron Command tank which gave that tank some orders which could only be issued to its squadron you would be starting to get somewhere.
Combine this with the Tank Commander being changed to an upgrade which is available to all tanks (yes, even LOW) in the army and change his orders to something half decent and allow him to issue orders to any tank.tank squadron on the board and you would have something here.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You pretty much always pen with it, and all you really need to do is get weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

Remind me again about the hit ratio? What, 50%?
The Vanquisher is THE iconic tank killer of 40K and yet its job can be done better by a regular Battletank or an Exterminator on the flank.

I vote that the Vanquisher gains a +3/+4 on the damage roll.

As to my earlier suggestion, how about giving Russ squadrons Splitfire all the time and increasing the unit coherency to 12"? That way each tank can function in a more independent manner.
If you followed this up with a Veteran Crew option for 10 PPM which gave +1 BS and an option to upgrade one tank per squadron to a Squadron Command tank which gave that tank some orders which could only be issued to its squadron you would be starting to get somewhere.
Combine this with the Tank Commander being changed to an upgrade which is available to all tanks (yes, even LOW) in the army and change his orders to something half decent and allow him to issue orders to any tank.tank squadron on the board and you would have something here.

Pretty much this. Give the infantry a little love as well and you are on the way to a decent codex.

If you make the unit coherency 12", the squadron rules make no sense, as damage carries over.

Ad squadrons have to all fire at the same target for a reason: 9 tanks with enormous guns getting to all fire separately is not balanced.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
If you make the unit coherency 12", the squadron rules make no sense, as damage carries over.

Ad squadrons have to all fire at the same target for a reason: 9 tanks with enormous guns getting to all fire separately is not balanced.

Yet somehow 9 Crisis Suits with just as much relative firepower, far more mobility, the ability to Overwatch and to boost up their Ballistic Skill/gain Ignores Cover on demand via Markerlights or a Buffmander and the ability to have Armor/Cover saves is totally balanced.

Still weaker than most IG lists.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Still weaker than most IG lists.

Yeah, that unit of 9 is weaker than an entire army.

But put that into the context of the new Tau codex and it becomes no contest which unit is better.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
If you make the unit coherency 12", the squadron rules make no sense, as damage carries over.

Ad squadrons have to all fire at the same target for a reason: 9 tanks with enormous guns getting to all fire separately is not balanced.

But the damage does not carry over. Besides, even if it did 4" makes no sense either. I dont suppose you have ever looked into how tanks work historically either? Squadrons will split up and move around. They will engage diferent targets with their main guns.
I see you whining about splitfire. Well, how about Tau crisis suits? How about Wraithknights? How about Marine trilaspred squadrons? How about Scatbikes? How about GK teleport nonsense?

Guys, just ignore him...

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Still weaker than most IG lists.

What game do you play? Because Tau battlesuits are a lot better than Leman Russ tanks.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Still weaker than most IG lists.

What game do you play? Because Tau battlesuits are a lot better than Leman Russ tanks.

In what universe are those better than a Russ tank?

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Still weaker than most IG lists.

What game do you play? Because Tau battlesuits are a lot better than Leman Russ tanks.

In what universe are those better than a Russ tank?

The 40k one?
How is a LRBT better than Tau battle suits when compared at equal points?

Why is anyone taking T-W seriously?

Seriously, that's either some next level trolling or a deep misunderstanding of game design and balance.

 Blacksails wrote:
Why is anyone taking T-W seriously?

Seriously, that's either some next level trolling or a deep misunderstanding of game design and balance.

Or how about someone with a realistic take on the IG codex?

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why is anyone taking T-W seriously?

Seriously, that's either some next level trolling or a deep misunderstanding of game design and balance.

Or how about someone with a realistic take on the IG codex?

Well at least we know you have a sense of humor.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why is anyone taking T-W seriously?

Seriously, that's either some next level trolling or a deep misunderstanding of game design and balance.

Or how about someone with a realistic take on the IG codex?

Nah man, when you're literally the only person I've seen on this board in the last year and change to think the way you do, I'm positive that you are either trolling or have a deep misunderstanding of the game and balance. You have yet to provide any real arguments to substantiate any claims that the IG are good or powerful in any sense of the words, while posters like Vaktathi have outlined in explicit detail why the Guard codex is rather weak.

In other words, provide an in depth analysis with comparisons and substantiate it with records of dozens of tournaments where Guard only lists make up a healthy chunk of the top 10%.

Until you do, everyone and their dog will continue to not take you seriously.

*Edit* And then you gak post with a troll reference. Until you prove otherwise, I'm 99% positive everyone reading this now thinks you're nothing more than a troll.

*Further editing* Anyways, seeing as this thread has been quite awesome for most of its pages, lets carry on.

Has there been any rumours or whispers at all about the Guard?

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why is anyone taking T-W seriously?

Seriously, that's either some next level trolling or a deep misunderstanding of game design and balance.

Or how about someone with a realistic take on the IG codex?

There's a fairly easy way to understand if your opinion is just an opinion, and not a fact. Does your side of the argument use credible statistics or any solid facts? No, in fact literally every time you argue against someone you have yet to to say anything more then the equivalent to "nuh uh tho!". Does both sides of the argument have differing views supported by at least a few people? No, in this case it is You thinking you know better then a dozen or more imperial guard players, and denying to give Any ground in your arguments.Its the same as you saying that chaos marines are OP because they can be taken in squads of 20: you are stating rules but the basis of balance seems to be at a preschool level of power and tactical thought.

 Blacksails wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why is anyone taking T-W seriously?

Seriously, that's either some next level trolling or a deep misunderstanding of game design and balance.

Or how about someone with a realistic take on the IG codex?

Nah man, when you're literally the only person I've seen on this board in the last year and change to think the way you do, I'm positive that you are either trolling or have a deep misunderstanding of the game and balance. You have yet to provide any real arguments to substantiate any claims that the IG are good or powerful in any sense of the words, while posters like Vaktathi have outlined in explicit detail why the Guard codex is rather weak.

In other words, provide an in depth analysis with comparisons and substantiate it with records of dozens of tournaments where Guard only lists make up a healthy chunk of the top 10%.

Until you do, everyone and their dog will continue to not take you seriously.

*Edit* And then you gak post with a troll reference. Until you prove otherwise, I'm 99% positive everyone reading this now thinks you're nothing more than a troll.

*Further editing* Anyways, seeing as this thread has been quite awesome for most of its pages, lets carry on.

Has there been any rumours or whispers at all about the Guard?

Supposedly we're coming up on the update block. But when exactly that'll be is unknown. Some people think sometime in the next few months. Nothing concrete though.