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  I got my first game in about two months the other day. Just for laughs I brought my Dark Eldar to the gaming store.

  I got matched up with a nidzilla player. After getting some friendly taunting about how dated the Dark Eldar codex was we began playing.

  It wasn't until the third turn I realized exactly how good Dark eldar are against Nidzilla lists.  Close combat carnifex's were brought down with a simple warrior squad with an agonizer (admittedly I did get one lucky wound with splinter rifels).

  The only thing that gave me any real trouble were genestealers, as they can move fast enough to avoid massed fire.

 

  I am well aware that this game has a certain rock-paper-scissors aspect. That being said, how would you deal with Dark Eldar if you were a Nidzilla player?

Posted By cuda1179 on 06/18/2007 7:38 AM

  I am well aware that this game has a certain rock-paper-scissors aspect. That being said, how would you deal with Dark Eldar if you were a Nidzilla player?

Scream about how cheesy the dated DE codex and horrible the DE models are. Or complain about how my six carnies arent broken enough.

Save the genestealers for counter attack. I play DE and in two rounds of combat my Archon on bike killed a carni, then went into another, killed that one and so on. Agonizers are superb for killing Nidzillas, but the stealers are good enough to even beat wyches in combat.

Overall though, DE are one of the few armies that can give Nidzilla a really hard time. They have a lot of AP2 weaponry and agonizers chew right through the big bugs before they even get a chance to strike.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I think I would start by not taking any close combat carnifexes. I don't recall ever seeing one in a RTT/GT list since 3rd ed.

I am pretty sure that my Nidzilla list would shoot a DE list off the table. This is one match-up where the psychic choir would be amazing!

Darrian

Well that depends. If the DE player uses WebPortals, the Nid player may not even get a chance to shoot before they get stuck in cc. Even without those, I can be across the board by at least the 2nd turn and if I use the terrain right, I can hide the important raiders behind area 3 terrain. My Archon on a bike is an independent character, he can get all the way across the board without ever being shot at.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I agree, in theory at least DE stand up well to big bugs. The agonizers will eat big bugs for breakfast. Wyches are probably one of the best anti big bug units in the game. So long as you can stay out of LOS for a turn to set up a charge, you should be ok. It would be the countercharging stealers that would really be a pain in the rear. Big bugs screened with gaunts would be a pain too.

But then you still have to play the game. that is a match up i would really like to see actually.

I pulled a draw against nid force with 2 Tyrants, 3 Carnies, 2 Zoanthropes, 2 lictors, 24 Stealers and 40 gaunts with my DE. We did have escalation, which hurt both of our forces.

Stealers actually die pretty easily to Splinter rifles unless they have the 4+ save upgrade. One squad of wyches killed a single stealer, lost 2 in return and were cut down as they ran and the other unit tore its way through a unit (killed 4 with their pistols before they assaulted) and then tore through all 20 gaunts). My Archon took down 2 carnies in cc by himself in 4 rounds. In the end he had a wounded Tyrant and a Carnie left, and that was about it. All I had was half a unit of reavers, my Archon, and a single sybarite with an agonizer that took out 4 stealers in cc (at the expense of his comrades).

I do want to go up against a 'pure' Nidzilla force with no escalation though.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The problem with 'Nidzilla Choir against DE is the fact that you have to get close to make the choir effect useful.

My DE all-comers tourney list only contains 12 36" range S8 AP2 weapons, but I have seen tourney lists that contain twice that many {Assume all have a target, and 5+ cover, that equates to two dead MC's (8.88 unsaved wounds) per turn}. With that range disparity, assuming LoS exists, a DE player could theoretically kill all three Zoanthropes and one of the Tyrants in a single turn (with only a little luck). The last time I played a Choir list was in an RTT last year, and the only thing that gave me trouble was that it was a "Sustained Attack" mission, and he kept getting to recycle his genestealer broods.

I played a regular 'Nidzilla type list this past weekend, and tabled it in turn 4. I think in the current rules set, 'Nidzilla is one of the few truely favorable match ups for DE.

Sal.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how are genestealers outperforming wyches?

Wyches with wych weapons cost a little bit more than 1/2 of a genestealer, have a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat, reduce the WS of enemy models (with S4 or less, IIRC) by half, and eliminate extra attacks for having two close combat weapons.

By my math-hammer (which may be wrong, if so, please correct it), it seems that the following is true about a fight between wyches and genestealers (assuming no charges, 10 wyches and 12 genestealers, wyches do not have the benefit of their drug table):

- both are I6, so they fight simultaneously
- 12 genestealers = 24 attacks --> 4 rends, 8 hits (remember that with WS3 genestealers hit on 4+ not 3+) --> 28/3 wounds inflicted --> 14/3 wounds saved --> 14/3 wounds taken --> nearly 5 wounds taken
- 10 wyches = 18 normal attacks + 4 agoniser attacks (assume drug use by succubus is for the extra attack and to reroll misses) --> 12 normal hits + 32/9 agoniser hits --> 4 normal wounds + 16/9 agoniser wounds --> 34/9 dead genestealers --> nearly 4 wounds taken.

By that math, even though the wyches lost more models, they came out ahead on points. Also, this doesn't take into account other factors. Wyches will get a roll on the drug table before the game, most of those results change my mathhammer in the wyches' favor. Wyches are most likely raider mounted (and coming from a WWP, to protect the raider), and so should at least get to charge, and may even be able to shoot the genestealers before charging into combat.


Back on topic, I can't see any other way to beat DE with nidzilla except shooting. If someone puts down 6 warrior sniper squads with 2x dark lance, they have the same range that tyranid barbed stranglers and venom cannons have. If someone puts down three ravagers with three AP2 weapons on them, they are forced to either use only one, or allow themselves to be penetrated in return.

If tooling for a DE fight, my nidzilla force would have at least 3 venom cannons (2 on fexes, 1 on a hive tyrant) if not 5 (3 on fexes, 2 on hive tyrants) along with at least 2 barbed strangers (on fexes) if not three. I would use at least 2 dakkafexes, and use spinegaunts to be the meat shield for my monstrous creatures.

If there is a lot of LOS blocking terrain on the table, the tyranids have a fairly decent chance. If there is not a lot of LOS blocking terrain on the table, the tyranids will probably lose. In either case, I'd rather be playing the DE than the tyranids.

The thing is is that 'Zilla Nids can't win the shooting game against anyone except DE. Your average 'Zilla force has a good balance of shooty and assault, in my experience.

The point being made here is that your average "take all comers" DE list has a very good chance of giving a tournament-ready 'Zilla list a run for its money. Sure, you can beat DE if you tool for them, but so can every other army, or any other matchup for that matter.

Ummm...Zilla nids are definitely a shooty army with counter-assault, not a mixed shooty/assaulty army.

The only real "assault" unit in the Nidzila list, at least the toughest ones I've faced, is the Flyrant, which can be either 2x Scything Talons with some fun upgrades (WS6, I6, Implant Attack) or it can be semi shooty with 1 or 2 TL Devourers and some other melee upgrades.

Everything else is just there to fill requirements or provide protection. Stealers are too expensive most of the time (assuming 1500 Points) to have enough of them to matter. Gaunts are great for Nidzilla since they give them numbers and can either screen big bugs from fast assault units (against assault armies) or can run ahead and tie up shooty lists that would otherwise have enough guns to scare the big bugs.

The one I've played against the most lately, which has a really nice mix uses a few squads of leaping rippers with WS4 for tie up duty and 3x 2 Ravenors for counter charge or just general assault, which actually works out a lot better than you'd think.

Yeah, in a shoot out, big bugs win. If you have 2 gunfexes that is two str 8 pie plates a turn, two str 5 pie plates from the HT's, plus venow cannons. not to mention the dakka fexes putting out 6 wounds a turn.

The 6 sniper warrior squads will do about 6.72 wounds per turn assuming no cover saves. but the bugs should have at least a 5+ on most boards, thereby reducing the wounds down to about 4.5.

In return, the big bugs are going to eliminate about two squads a turn or more. The DE will get eaten up before they can kill more than a bug or two.

Your best bet would be to go after the Nids in assault. Again, wyches are one of the best anti big bug units out there. You would just need a way of reliably getting them into combat. Maybe some warrior squads on radiers to double tap the little bugs and tank shock a path through them to give a charge lane for the Wyches?

This is actually a match up i would really like to see, and DE's do well against MEQ's.

Posted By Reecius on 06/20/2007 9:02 AM
Yeah, in a shoot out, big bugs win. If you have 2 gunfexes that is two str 8 pie plates a turn, two str 5 pie plates from the HT's, plus venow cannons. not to mention the dakka fexes putting out 6 wounds a turn.

Though that only averages 1 big pie plate a turn, and a bit over 1 small pie plate. The dakka fexes are outranged, and against well deployed sniper squads are looking at turn 3+ before shooting, if they aren't dead by then.

The 6 sniper warrior squads will do about 6.72 wounds per turn assuming no cover saves. but the bugs should have at least a 5+ on most boards, thereby reducing the wounds down to about 4.5.

though using cover can slow down how long it takes for the dakka fexes to get into range - do you look to get into range asap or hug cover. The dakka fexes are not much use just sitting in cover in their own zone (unless thats the objective !)

In return, the big bugs are going to eliminate about two squads a turn or more. The DE will get eaten up before they can kill more than a bug or two.

The eldar will of course presumably have the same ability to use cover, and given how little will shoot them for 2 turns I would think 2 dead sqauds a turn is pushing it. When the dakka fexes are in range things get bad, but until then the nids are really relying on good pie plate rolls. On a good day the pie plates hit home and hurt, on a not so good day the nids get shot to ribbons for several turns.

All theory hammer of course.

 

too true.

But IIRC, dark lances and the Nid weapons have the same range of 36" (except the devourers).

and, also IIRC, the barbed strangler for the HT's is also a large pie plate, also wounding DE on 2+. So they would be getting hit the same turn the DE could hit the bugs. That means they would be getting hit with an average of 2.33 pie plates a turn from 2 HT's and 2 carnies, plus the 8 or so venom cannon shots. that is pretty rough and it wouldnt take long to start torrenting of firring the DE squads.

It would probably take the dakka fexes a turn or two to get into firing range.

Also, you have to conisder units like genestealers advancing on the DE, the would be charging turn 3 or so and would have to be countered somehow.

But then, 6 DE sniper units is only 600 points.

At any rate, it would be an interesting match up.

No theory hammer here.

I play DE regularly and have had the good fortune to face 'Nidzilla armies three times.

I won all three. Two were complete beat-downs, usually tabled by the end of turn 4. One was more difficult, because the RTT mission we were in had Sustained Attack (or Assault?), allowing him to keep recycling his 6 units of Genestealers. And that was with a list that only carried 11 DLs and 4 Disintegrators. That army was the only one that I've ever allowed to shoot me with a DakkaFex, as through deployment and target selection, I killed any I faced before they got in range in the other two games. Against that particular guy, though, he kept rolling 6s for his 'Stealers FoF, so I had to redirect fire to them (I remember his first turn's FoF rolls were 4,5,5,6,6,6 for his six units, so I absolutely had to shoot at them).

It only takes 22 shots to kill three DakkaFexes, assuming no cover (22 x 2/3 x 5/6 = 12.22), and since DakkaFexes have short range, they must advance for at least two turns if the DE general is smart and deploys deeper into his own zone. Since they have to advance, it is much more difficult to make good use of cover providing terrain. My list puts out that number of shots in two turns, and more than doubles it when you get into blaster range.

Now, this is all just based on the experience I have had in three games against 'Nidzilla players, and none of them were hack players. All three have been in RTT's, all three of them went 2-1 in the respective tourney, and the guy with all the 'Stealers/choir combo played me in round three for the RTT win.

that does not surprise me. Nidzillas are vulnerable to assault, and DE are damn good at that.

I would say that two equally skiller generals with two maximized lists would put the nidzillas at a disadvantage.

If there was not much terrain, you would eat the dakka fexes for breakfast.

Did they gunfexes or shooty HT's? Did you have any trouble with them or did you engage them in HtH ASAP?

i thought the same thing about my dark eldar and tested it out against a comparable player using my nids. the end result was total massacre or the Dark eldar.

the nids ability to move and shoot far outweighed any mobility advantage the DE have. one volley form a dakkafex wipes out most wych squads to a controllable number.

we did find that the preferred method of movement for the nidzilla list was reversed when facing a DE force. instead of marching your bigbugs up in front, we put the stealers in front as all the DE weapons were only 1or2 shots, by the time the nids were within the DE rapid fire range, they had been beaten down by the dakkafex's shots.

agonizers work well against the large bugs, but rarely did they make it into combat with them. there is just to much firepower one the bugs side.

Did you have your Wyches in raiders?

Personally, I do keep them in Raiders. I'll either WWP them in, or if there's enough terrain, I'll just hide them behind something until the enemy is close enough to jump on them.

But seriously, though, Genestealers make baby wyches cry. I'll take them against anything else in the 'Nid army, but 'Stealers always seem to spank them. That was another thing that made that 'Stealer heavy 'Nidzilla/Choir list such a pain.

If I remember, at 2K points, his list was something like:

Tyrant w/VC & BS, 2 guard

Flyrant w/2xTLDev, scream

2 x Dakka fex

2 x Gunfex

3 x Zoanthrope (2 blast/scream, 1 synapse/scream)

4 x 6 'Stealers

2 x 8 'Stealers

The only biomorphs I'm sure of on the stealers was scuttling. Without a doubt, the hardest 'Nid list I've ever faced with my DE.

Sal.

Well, in my game it was a 2,000 point matchup playing a Cleanse mission. (the reason he had two Close combat Carnifexs was that he had two old second-edition screamer killers he couldn't bear to rip apart and re-arm.)

 

He set up first and put a Heavy support carnifex as close to me as he could, with all the other carnifexs pretty much behind it. He had a winged tyrant with warp blast and two scything tallons, a Brood lord, ripper swarms, and a few squads of genestealers.

I had three warrior squads with 15 men each. Two dark Lances, two blasters. I also had a 15-man warrior squad with two destructors and two splinter cannons. Filling out my list was A raider squad with a blaster and splinter cannon, sergent (I can't remember real title) with agonizer.  I also had five bikes, an Archon with punisher and full incubi retinue (with Drazar for fun) mounted in a raider, 10 wytches in a raider, two talos, and a Ravager with three Disintegrators.

 

My first turn I was able to kill a carnifex with massed warrior fire, and kill all the ripper swarms with blast templates from the ravager.

The next turn was basically the same thing, but I pounded a genestealer squad with the splintercannon warrior squad. I took some hits back, killing 5 men in a darklance squad.

The third turn was interesting as my cover-hugging raiders were able to both contribute dark lance fire and disembark troops. After shooting I lonly had to worry about three carnifexs, two of which were tromping towards my warrior squads. Things ended with a wytch squad and raider squad ripping into a carnifex while my Lord took on the broodlord and his retinue. That probably wasn't the smartest things to do, but I love epic showdowns. The lord shrugged off all the broodlord hits (2+ invulnerable) while Drazar kicked in attacks and the incubi really didn't do much against the genestealer retinue, taking four wounds.

Turn four had my warriors in close combat with his screamer killers. One lucky warrior did put a wound on one however. My talos joined the fight later. One talos died, but helped in killing both screamerkillers.

This would be a fun matchup, but I still am pretty confident that a GT Godzilla list will usually beat a GT DE list of any variety. This is also one matchup where my HT's psychic ability catalyst will really come in handy.

BTW, I have a complete Dark Eldar army that I will happily sell to anyone who wants it. PM me for more info.

Darrian

You would know better than i, you play Nidzillas all the time and very well.

PM sent about the DE army, i may be interested.

Posted By jeremycobert on 06/20/2007 12:10 PM
i thought the same thing about my dark eldar and tested it out against a comparable player using my nids. the end result was total massacre or the Dark eldar.

the nids ability to move and shoot far outweighed any mobility advantage the DE have. one volley form a dakkafex wipes out most wych squads to a controllable number.

we did find that the preferred method of movement for the nidzilla list was reversed when facing a DE force. instead of marching your bigbugs up in front, we put the stealers in front as all the DE weapons were only 1or2 shots, by the time the nids were within the DE rapid fire range, they had been beaten down by the dakkafex's shots.

agonizers work well against the large bugs, but rarely did they make it into combat with them. there is just to much firepower one the bugs side.

How on earth did you let your wyches get w/in range of a Dakkafex?  With a raider, you should be able to assault them from well beyond their range. 

My tactics are to shoot the VC/BS Big Bugs first, then assault the Dakkafex's with Wyches and Archon/Dracons.  A DE army are probably the best equipped to take on a Nidzilla list, w/ Agonizers and High Str/Low AP DL/Blasters being the bane of all Big Bugs.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Neither of the lists mentioned would I consider to be 'good' zilla lists.
Especially the one with the CC fexes.

Extra armor>Scutting on stealers unless you're playing a horde army. Even then...

I tried this matchup this weekend with a friend of mine who plays DE often. I used my standard 2000 point Tyranid list against the DE list that I have used in RTT's. We played Seek and Destroy Gamma with 25% cover. The DE list looked like this;

Archon (bike, agonizer, combat drugs etc)
8 wyches (succubi with agonizer and combat drugs) raider with dark lance.
8 wyches " "
8 wyches " "
12 warriors (sybarite with WWP), 2 dark lances
12 warriors " "
10 warriors. 2 dark lances
10 warriors, 2 dark lances
10 warriors, 2 dark lances
10 warriors, 2 dark lances
5 warp beasts w pack master
3 Ravagers, Dark lance and 2 Disisntegraters.

This list has 18 dark lances and 6 disintegraters and 3 very potent CC units and the killer general.

The battle was close but my Tyranids were able to win by 500+ points. The things that really helped my list were the Hive tyrants "Horror" ability and the psychic power "catalyst"

You guys were right that this is a tough matchup, but I am confident that the NIdz will win the majority of the time.

Darrian

Curious, do you think a wych cult list wth less emphasis on sniper squads would have done a bit better against your list? Were the lances the real work horse or were there not enough wyches to get the job done.

Nidzillas will punk most DE armies. Webway portals are a joke oh noes, i lost a bug to neenjas, now i shots all your guys to deathz.


What's not a joke is the two words that make Nidzillas cry: "Night shields."

DE air force with night shields is a flat out impossible matchup for nidzillas. Dakkafexes with a 12" range are easy to kill, and DE excel at killing them.

@longshot
damn, tha tis a good idea, plus the venom cannons and stranglers would be outranged by the dark lances, the airforce is more mobile as well, and if anything gets close the wyches pop out and destroy them.

Holy crap, a reason to take Night Shields.

sal.