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Wayniac wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Hey, remember when Battelforces were like £50 and a good way to get into an army and not just a random pile of stuff.

Yes. I also remember when army boxes (today's Battleforces) were COMPLETE fething ARMIES not like 600 points of junk to move old product.

You know that "old product" doesn't actually exist right. GW doesn't sit there with mountains of unsold boxes and spend time shipping them all home to rebox into discount sets to then ship out again. Everything will be produced to production requirements; boxed up and sold. Also these new sets are a LOT of new models. The Tyranid one the only old models are the warriors and hive tyrant and both those are still pretty modern plastic kits that don't "need" an update to them. Updates would be nice, but the kits as they are now work perfectly fine.

Also complete armies is still there with Combat Patrol. It's just that what's combat patrol scale today is what "full armies" were decades ago (more or less kind of). So we still have those things; but if you want a full 2K army you're not getting that with a single purchase (unless you play Knights - they 'might' just be able to do that with a single christmas box? )

Lord Damocles wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Hey, remember when Battelforces were like £50 and a good way to get into an army and not just a random pile of stuff.

Hey, a 'platoon' consisting of units from probably three different Companies isn't random!

Hey, combined arms combat team with infantry, armor and artillery is a thing in the US Army.
It's generally as a battalion, with company sized units though, not individual squads.

Billicus wrote:
Seen a few photos doing the rounds of miscasts on the speeder kit, anecdotally been told it's quite a widespread problem but don't have any numbers.

What defect did you see? I don't see anything wrong on mine but I might have just missed it

 Overread wrote:
You know that "old product" doesn't actually exist right. GW doesn't sit there with mountains of unsold boxes and spend time shipping them all home to rebox into discount sets to then ship out again. Everything will be produced to production requirements; boxed up and sold..

Titus from the Space Marine II board game called. He and the Warhammer Heroes want to have a talk.

 parakuribo wrote:

 Overread wrote:
You know that "old product" doesn't actually exist right. GW doesn't sit there with mountains of unsold boxes and spend time shipping them all home to rebox into discount sets to then ship out again. Everything will be produced to production requirements; boxed up and sold..

Titus from the Space Marine II board game called. He and the Warhammer Heroes want to have a talk.

The fact that the series 4 Warhammer Heroes and the same Marine sculpts in the Tyranid Attack board game are made from different coloured plastic disproves your point.

 Matrindur wrote:

Billicus wrote:
Seen a few photos doing the rounds of miscasts on the speeder kit, anecdotally been told it's quite a widespread problem but don't have any numbers.

What defect did you see? I don't see anything wrong on mine but I might have just missed it

One of the front panels is malformed, which makes it basically impossible to put together. pic is from a local group, sorry it's so huge


Don't get me wrong, I'm sure GW will put it right for people and hopefully the claims it's a widespread thing are exaggerated.

 Overread wrote:

You know that "old product" doesn't actually exist right. GW doesn't sit there with mountains of unsold boxes and spend time shipping them all home to rebox into discount sets to then ship out again. Everything will be produced to production requirements

I do wonder to what extent GW looks at their rules to see what's "good" and estimate how well a particular product will sell/what products are in demand
Or even to what extent that actually affects their sales numbers?

I know from my local groups you can definitely see a lot more people buying a lot more of the "good" units and actively discourage themselves and one another from buying "bad" units. But then I also know a large proportion of GW's sales comes from "little timmys" who probably aren't as clued in or bothered by such things.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Overread wrote:

You know that "old product" doesn't actually exist right. GW doesn't sit there with mountains of unsold boxes and spend time shipping them all home to rebox into discount sets to then ship out again. Everything will be produced to production requirements

I do wonder to what extent GW looks at their rules to see what's "good" and estimate how well a particular product will sell/what products are in demand
Or even to what extent that actually affects their sales numbers?

I know from my local groups you can definitely see a lot more people buying a lot more of the "good" units and actively discourage themselves and one another from buying "bad" units. But then I also know a large proportion of GW's sales comes from "little timmys" who probably aren't as clued in or bothered by such things.

I don't think it has anything to do with Little Timmys, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the hobby buys miniatures because of looks mostly, rules concerns are probably a distant second, maybe even a third after fluff/ narrative considerations.

Popularity is based on many things - rules, looks, price, relativity to other major releases, popularity of the game in general, popularity of the faction within the game, material the model is made of, age/quality of sculpt. Plus the sense of a future - wargamers are "odd" by modern consumerism standards because they want to see a product with a 10year lifespan.

Armies on their last legs when there's a sense that "they will be dropped" stop selling. Yes die-hard fans keep buying, but everyone else stops. They might sell off what they've got too.





Any one of those elements can be the "big one" or add together. Eg an army not getting rule updates in a while can end up with old style sculpts; out of date designs; different materials (eg metal when everything else is plastic). So often as not its not just "one thing" but several that add together.

Rules is in there and AoS showed that rules are important. You can also see in things like Warmachine where models that had lackluster rules for a long time are now super hard to find secondhand because they under-sold and thus the stock for them is far reduced compared to "good" choices that got bought up more.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Overread wrote:

You know that "old product" doesn't actually exist right. GW doesn't sit there with mountains of unsold boxes and spend time shipping them all home to rebox into discount sets to then ship out again. Everything will be produced to production requirements

I do wonder to what extent GW looks at their rules to see what's "good" and estimate how well a particular product will sell/what products are in demand
Or even to what extent that actually affects their sales numbers?

I know from my local groups you can definitely see a lot more people buying a lot more of the "good" units and actively discourage themselves and one another from buying "bad" units. But then I also know a large proportion of GW's sales comes from "little timmys" who probably aren't as clued in or bothered by such things.

I don't think it has anything to do with Little Timmys, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the hobby buys miniatures because of looks mostly, rules concerns are probably a distant second, maybe even a third after fluff/ narrative considerations.

But that's absolutely not the case in my experience. "I really love X but it's just not good enough" and "Y is just so good I need it" are both things basically everyone in my local groups (that's 3 groups and like 30+ people) have said.
Looks is definitely a factor; "Z is average, but I love it so much I'm using it" is definitely a thing said by most people as well. But looks isn't the be-all-all of purchasing decision

It’s also only a percentage of hobbyists that play.

Me? As covered elsewhere I’ve not regularly played in forever. Like, a decade or more. I’ve still spent untold thousands of pounds on models in that same time.

Even for those who regularly play, it’s not uncommon for units to be bought and never built, let alone fielded.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Even for those who regularly play, it’s not uncommon for units to be bought and never built, let alone fielded.

I definitely will build and paint those Eldar Corsairs. I absolutely didn't buy them just because it seemed like a good deal and I knew I never would at full price...
Honest.

I think GW's sales are disproportionately made up of the new stuff which is actively marketed and sold to the customer base. This includes say a new codex inspiring a lot of interest in a faction even the models are years (decades) old.

You can however see some movement in sales (at least on the big online UK FLGS) if GW make a previously unloved faction/unit top tier. But I think its a moderate amount compared with the above.

I buy stuff that looks like it might get squatted now, that's my main thing. I must get some firstborn tanks in before they go.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Overread wrote:

You know that "old product" doesn't actually exist right. GW doesn't sit there with mountains of unsold boxes and spend time shipping them all home to rebox into discount sets to then ship out again. Everything will be produced to production requirements

I do wonder to what extent GW looks at their rules to see what's "good" and estimate how well a particular product will sell/what products are in demand
Or even to what extent that actually affects their sales numbers?

I know from my local groups you can definitely see a lot more people buying a lot more of the "good" units and actively discourage themselves and one another from buying "bad" units. But then I also know a large proportion of GW's sales comes from "little timmys" who probably aren't as clued in or bothered by such things.

I don't think it has anything to do with Little Timmys, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the hobby buys miniatures because of looks mostly, rules concerns are probably a distant second, maybe even a third after fluff/ narrative considerations.

But that's absolutely not the case in my experience. "I really love X but it's just not good enough" and "Y is just so good I need it" are both things basically everyone in my local groups (that's 3 groups and like 30+ people) have said.
Looks is definitely a factor; "Z is average, but I love it so much I'm using it" is definitely a thing said by most people as well. But looks isn't the be-all-all of purchasing decision

I was mainly opposed to the idea that it was young newbies that didn't care about the rules compared to the older players when I'd say it's the other way around. New young players are more likely to say: guy on youtube said I need to buy X to play my faction so I will buy it. Whereas older players are more like: Rules change every couple of months anyway so I'll only get what I like the looks of/ fits my theme.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You are thinking of what are now the combat patrol boxes. Or combat force, in 30k terms.

And they used to be called (drumroll please)...... tada Battleforces.

This battleforce is a release FOMO box that is sold while stocks last. It's there just to pad out a new attractive kit with some older kits.

Not a single one of those Battleforces has new models in it.

Ciaphas Cain rules up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/ysvas9bc/embolden-your-guardsmen-with-ciaphas-cain-rules/

Top kek, he's Legends, so whole swathes of silly people won't allow him even in friendly games.

Can't risk upsetting the sacred matched play balance, better just make him Legends. Embarrassing

I like that he releases straight to Legends, it legitimises Legends as something better than just "old gak your grandad bought as a kid"

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I like that he releases straight to Legends, it legitimises Legends as something better than just "old gak your grandad bought as a kid"

Standard practice for Black Library characters - Sister Aveline launched with Legends rules as well.

Legends rules are because the kit is a limited-run and won't be available indefinitely.

Got my box. Good chunk of new plastic in it. Be a bit before I get it all built for sure but they seem really nice. No real surprises but that's pretty standard. Been a while since I hacked off marine shoulders.

As for the extras. The rulebook is nice but not likely to be used as are the datacards. The decks are great but the app actually covers the mission deck far better than I expected which might limit how useful I find it.

The lore book is actually really quite nice. It's a really nice breakdown of the Armageddon conflict and forces and ideas for locations and really a great resource for anyone who really wants to set their games in this conflict. Between this and the campaign deck I think its similar to what the crusade books provide and something I'm glad potential new players are getting to experience out of the box.

Decent rules

 Gert wrote:

Not a single one of those Battleforces has new models in it.

The 30k one does.

The other four are just "christmas" style battleforces presumably introduced to ride the hype of the new edition. The christmas battleforces don't tend to include new models either, not any newer than half a year or so.

The big boxes are mostly there to keep the average transaction value artificially high as that looks good on retail KPIs. They're also a way to grab as much shelf space as possible in trade stores, which is very much part of the competition strategy