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Just because something costs more than something else doesn't mean it should be good at killing it.

The game is supposed to be about combining different kinds of weapons, units and tactics. Otherwise you find get the biggest, pointiest thing in your list and buy as many of them as you can.

His Master's Voice wrote:Look at the Screamer Killer model way back from 2nd edition. Four scything talons and zero dakka. It shows how GW imagined Nids - HtH monsters with some backup shooting not the other way around. And when a creature that used to scream CLAW-TO-CLAW becomes a mobile firebase you know something is wrong.

Couldn't agree more.

'Nids used to be a HTH swarm army. The fact that they've become a Monstrous Creature shooty army is just testament to GW's inability to write rules that don't involve selling a new kit.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Doesn't matter what Initiative you are.
BYE

Not sure what your point is here... are you implying that I think initiative is currently in the rules for a skimmer moving fast?

Easy way for vehicles and wounds.

The main rule-book can have a chart with point costs for various things.

Front armor 12- 100 points per mass point for a maximum of 2
50 points per armour save starting with 6+ no better then a 5+

Front armour 13+-150 points per mass point for a maximum of 2
60 points per armour save starting with 6+ no better then a 4+

Front armor 12+ skimmers- 150 points per mass point for a maximum of 1
50 points per armor save starting with 5+ nobetter then a 4+

Fron armor 11 and less skimmers- 75 points per mass point for a maximum of 1


etc etc etc etc etc etc

I'm not trying to make up rules but you get what kinda system i'm getting at.

Kilkrazy wrote:Just because something costs more than something else doesn't mean it should be good at killing it.

The game is supposed to be about combining different kinds of weapons, units and tactics. Otherwise you find get the biggest, pointiest thing in your list and buy as many of them as you can.

You have made some really good points throughout this entire post.
I feel you have concisely said what 40k is about.
right on.

If you all remember, in the RT days vehicles did have wounds...it had it's issues and problems too.

I think the system they have now is fairly elegant, it just needs tweaking. It seems they are on the road to that.

paidinfull wrote:Not sure what your point is here... are you implying that I think initiative is currently in the rules for a skimmer moving fast?

Think about it. You said:

"Aren't Carnifex I2? Isn't Initiative a trait that is intended to show how agile or quick a unit is? As far as I'm aware of that is the intent behind that Characteristic. That being said I would not expect a slow moving, singular minded creature to have an easy time hitting any moving tank, let alone a flying fast moving skimmer."

Whilst you are correct about the Initiative characteristic representing that within the game, when it comes to skimmers, it doesn't matter if your Initiative is 1 or 10 - you still have the same trouble, so your point on slow Carnifexes having trouble hitting skimmers is... well... pointless. A WS1 I1 model has the same chance as a WS10 I10 model when it comes to hitting skimmers, and that's a problem.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:The fact that they've become a Monstrous Creature shooty army is just testament to GW's inability to write rules that don't involve selling a new kit.

BYE

Hah, I have no problem with GW writing rules to sell new models. It's a business they run after all. It's the inability to write clear, coherent rules that sell new models without unbalancing the system that's the problem.

Kilkrazy wrote:The game is supposed to be about combining different kinds of weapons, units and tactics. Otherwise you find get the biggest, pointiest thing in your list and buy as many of them as you can.

Wait, what? Are we talking about the same game here? I don't know what the game is supposed to be about - but I do know that if taking 1 Space Emporer is awesome then taking 2 Space Emporers are even more (x2) awesomer!!

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The game is supposed to be about combining different kinds of weapons, units and tactics. Otherwise you find get the biggest, pointiest thing in your list and buy as many of them as you can.

Wait, what? Are we talking about the same game here? I don't know what the game is supposed to be about - but I do know that if taking 1 Space Emporer is awesome then taking 2 Space Emporers are even more (x2) awesomer!!

Exactly! The space emporer can even be called fzorgle and he's armed with twinlinked x5 awesome donkeycannons!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Think about it. You said:

"Aren't Carnifex I2? Isn't Initiative a trait that is intended to show how agile or quick a unit is? As far as I'm aware of that is the intent behind that Characteristic. That being said I would not expect a slow moving, singular minded creature to have an easy time hitting any moving tank, let alone a flying fast moving skimmer."

Whilst you are correct about the Initiative characteristic representing that within the game, when it comes to skimmers, it doesn't matter if your Initiative is 1 or 10 - you still have the same trouble, so your point on slow Carnifexes having trouble hitting skimmers is... well... pointless. A WS1 I1 model has the same chance as a WS10 I10 model when it comes to hitting skimmers, and that's a problem.

I can agree with that. I was attempting to use imagination to address a comment that seemed contingent on a perception of the carnifex, not answer the fact that the system needs work.
You're right. By that logic it doesn't make much sense that it's a flat score, on skimmers or on any other vehicle for that matter. Auto-hit? People can still miss even if it didn't move. 4+, 6+ what does that represent?

I believe that GW was just trying to really simplify this portion of the system. But what it sounds like is the majority would like something a little more complex.

One major issue I would like to see addressed is the force organization chart. In theory, its a great idea, but it tends to lead to a couple of problems. The first is that it does poorly in low point games. In 1000ish point games, the ability to pile in 3 heavy support or elite choices tends to mean that power gaming goes wild. On the flip side, horde armies have difficulty packing in enough points for a 2000 point game into one force org chart. I for one would like to see things set up on a sliding scale sort of like fantasy. In games up to X number of points you can have this many of each of these category of units. This could be the same chart categories we currently have in 40k or it could be a more general core / special / rare system like fantasy. In either case it would help a lot with balancing lists at all point levels of the game.

Another thing they need to do is to stop screwing with what force org slot different units fit into. We wouldn't have problems with Gorgonzola Nids if carnafixes couldn't be both heavy support and elite choices. The stupidly broken 3rd edition Kraftworld eldar codex wouldn't have been a problem (or ever existed probably) if they hadn't shifted what units counted as troops across each list. Limiting how many of a unit you can take goes a long way to creating a balanced game. I was super happy when I read the 3rd edition rules and found the force org chart. No more all terminator armies for every marine player out there...happy days. Now if they would just put everything into a slot and leave it there, it will help out a lot.

Regarding the Force chart, Warmaster Ancients has a good army list system in which there is a min/max value for each troop type per 1,000 points in play.

Games are played at 1,000, 2,000 or 3,000 points.

If you have the Carthaginian army, elephants are -/1. This means your minimum is 0 and maximum is 1 unit of elephants per 1,000 points. In other words, in a 1,000 point game you can have one elephant. I guess the elephant is the Ancient equivalent of a tank.

Another type of unit, Numidian cavalry, are 2/8.

As for the Space Emporer, he is too busy painting his Spase Marienz (Hurr!) with a 00 detail brush to be in your army.

In regards to initiative and hitting skimmers in close combat I think any unit or model at I6 or greater should have an easier time of it.

- G

paidinfull wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Just because something costs more than something else doesn't mean it should be good at killing it.

The game is supposed to be about combining different kinds of weapons, units and tactics. Otherwise you find get the biggest, pointiest thing in your list and buy as many of them as you can.

You have made some really good points throughout this entire post.
I feel you have concisely said what 40k is about.
right on.

I may have to buy a larger hat for this winter.

It's what I think the game should be about, anyway. My perspective is based on playing a lot of different tabletop games. The fun of games comes from finding solutions to tactical and strategic problems. If the solutions are obvious (tank, or anything -- sic a Carnifex on it) there is less fun.

On being able to target models with power fists... I think if this comes to pass you will see more Space Marine veteran squads with 2x power fist.

- G

If they want to keep it simplistic, then they should determine To Hit based on speed-bands.

Ground Vehicle
Sationary = Auto-Hit
Moving up to 6" = 2+ To Hit
Moving above 6" up to 12" = 4+ To Hit
Moving above 12" = 6+ To Hit

And for skimmers you just move it up one - stationary = 2+, first movement = 4+, second and third 6+.

BYE

didn't the four claw carnifex form 2nd have bio plamsa? :S? now back on topic if these 5th rule book comes out it cant change to much with all the extras like the damge dice these new codexs

Kilkrazy wrote:Regarding the Force chart, Warmaster Ancients has a good army list system in which there is a min/max value for each troop type per 1,000 points in play.

Games are played at 1,000, 2,000 or 3,000 points.

If you have the Carthaginian army, elephants are -/1. This means your minimum is 0 and maximum is 1 unit of elephants per 1,000 points. In other words, in a 1,000 point game you can have one elephant. I guess the elephant is the Ancient equivalent of a tank.

Another type of unit, Numidian cavalry, are 2/8.

As for the Space Emporer, he is too busy painting his Spase Marienz (Hurr!) with a 00 detail brush to be in your army.

But size of a battle doesn't equate to importance in modern warfare like it did in ancient times. When a single assassin can prevent the uprising of an entire planet, whos to say the Emperor couldn't show up leading a small force

Size of battle has never been a function of importance in ancient or modern times. It is a function of the opposing nations' ability to move forces to the battlefield. Ancient and modern battles have been of all sorts of sizes.

My suggestion is not concerned with the importance of a battle. It is a way to ensure some kind of balance of forces within a supposedly fair game.

Of everything in this thread, my personal favorite is whoever opted for the Penetrating Hit table with 5 destroyed and 6 explode, and then the -1 modifier for a glancing hit. It made so much sense I almost fell flat on my face.

Much to my chagrin, that would include modifiers. Oy vey.

Maybe in this edition they'll decide to save the game by using '-'s and '+'s.

His Master's Voice wrote:Look at the Screamer Killer model way back from 2nd edition. Four scything talons and zero dakka. It shows how GW imagined Nids - HtH monsters with some backup shooting not the other way around. And when a creature that used to scream CLAW-TO-CLAW becomes a mobile firebase you know something is wrong.

Actually, the Carnifex in 2nd edition wasn't a h2h monster. Its primary function was an indestructible moving wall to screen your Tyrant and other monstrous creatures (remember in 2nd edition you had to target the closest model of that type). The thing was surprisingly ineffective in combat due to the lack of outstanding WS or a parry. If it connected, sure, it hurt. But under 2nd edition rules only the combat winner did any damage. I once had a Carnifex tied up by an IG officer with a sword for something like 4 straight assault phases.

They also had a bioplasma shot that was akin to a battlecannon. While I like the image of Carnifexes just ripping through lines, they've never really played that way on the tabletop.

To echo something Voodoo Boyz said early in this thread, I'm really liking Ork footsloggers if the forced march rumor is true. It'd let you save your Waaagh or going for Warphead Waaaghs until you're ready to assault.

And how about Black Templars? They'd benefit too.

bigchris1313 wrote:Of everything in this thread, my personal favorite is whoever opted for the Penetrating Hit table with 5 destroyed and 6 explode, and then the -1 modifier for a glancing hit. It made so much sense I almost fell flat on my face.

Much to my chagrin, that would include modifiers. Oy vey.

Maybe in this edition they'll decide to save the game by using '-'s and '+'s.

Actually, that's almost how fourth edition works. Except it can be summarized as "Roll on the glancing hit table. If a penetrating hit is scored, add 2 and crew stunned (if applicable)". That's how I remember it in game.

Instead of giving us modifiers though, they gave us two separate charts.

How about using the same to CC hit table but the vehicle's WS would count as maybe half the speed they go? So, if you're a marine you need to roll a 3 to hit a tank that moved 6" (it's WS would be 3), if it moved 12", it's WS would be 6, if it moved 18, it would be 9 .. you get the idea. So, the faster they go, the harder they are to hit, but it's not impossible.. and a high WS model would still have a decent chance to hit it

I think initiative and the distance moved by a unit/model should also be factored in for hitting a vehicle besides just WS. Certainly if a vehicle moved 12" and the attacking unit also moved the same distance that should negate the speed of the vehicle.

- G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think initiative and the distance moved by a unit/model should also be factored in for hitting a vehicle besides just WS. Certainly if a vehicle moved 12" and the attacking unit also moved the same distance that should negate the speed of the vehicle.

- G

What if they moved in the opposite direction? Double the difficulty?

The problem is you have to track the movement of every vehicle and squad in case someone decides they are going to assault a vehicle.

I would keep it simple and say just say they matched the speed of the vehicle.

- G

If you're going to "simplify" in that manner, what's the point of factoring in the speed of the attacker in the first place?

Green Blow Fly wrote:In regards to initiative and hitting skimmers in close combat I think any unit or model at I6 or greater should have an easier time of it.

- G

But then you have the odd situation of genestealers, with their high WS and IN and no ranged weapons being really good at bringing down skimmers which are likely to be a hundred odd metres above them. At the same time troops with ranged weapons and modest melee abilities will be quite ineffective against the same target.

There is a lot of confusion in this thread about what assaulting a vehicle really means. The book says it represents short range shooting and grenade throwing, but bases everything around WS and St. It mentions vehicle assault represents all kinds of attacks, like climbing on the vehicle and shoving grenades down hatches and spraying shots through viewports… but then doesn’t allow models with St 3 to damage any kind of vehicle at all. And yeah, a melee carnifex or powerfist sergeant is far more likely to damage a skimmer than marine armed with a bolter.

GW have basically just plunked in a loose system to encourage vehicles to keep on the move. It’s kind of goofy and doesn’t really represent anything, but at least it’s resolved quickly. I’m all for a better system that takes more time and feels like its actually representing some kind of assault on the vehicle, but I think there probably needs to be a proper consensus on what an assault really means before that goes ahead.