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As for the Meltas, it's a AV12 Skimmer. If it didn't move Flat Out, then, there's no cover save, so the extra d6 hardly matters.

How on earth does an extra D6 for S8 to penetrate AV12 hardly matter? Are you even playing the same game?

Are you?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Are you?

That's some pretty heavy Zen stuff there.

Are you?

I think it's clear that Danny Internets is saying that D6+8 penetration is only like a 50% chance to glance/pen, while 2D6+8 raises that a lot, making it quite unlikely for it to NOT penetrate AV12, as compared to doing nothing...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Huh? A skimmer can move up to 12" before the models disembark. If the total (diagonal, since that's how people want to count things) movement is up to 12", including landing, then there shouldn't be any problem with moving before disembarking.

The Grav Chute allows the Valk to move 12-24" and disembark anywhere along the path, up to 24" away, rather than up to 12" away.

As for the Meltas, it's a AV12 Skimmer. If it didn't move Flat Out, then, there's no cover save, so the extra d6 hardly matters.

I swear you don't play the same game as the rest of us.

sourclams wrote:I swear you don't play the same game as the rest of us.

Well, duh.

I mostly play Apoc. You guys mostly play tournaments.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

sourclams wrote:I swear you don't play the same game as the rest of us.

Well, duh.

I mostly play Apoc. You guys mostly play tournaments.

Last I checked, the rules for melta were the same in both environments.

I get what you're saying JohnHwangDD, but I think you spoke too soon in saying an extra D6 doesn't matter.
The only thing that makes the Monolith practically indestructible is that you can't use D6.
Even a land-raider can easily be peeled open with a melta.

Conclusion: 12" should be the maximum movement before landing. And you should make it clear to your opponent that you believe you can land.

The Monolith is AV14, not AV12. There's a big difference there.
- AV14, you need S8+2d6 to reliably pen
- AV12, you have good chances to glance or pen even with basic S8
- and Valk is Skimmer, so dies to Immobilized

If you were planning on a single Melta to drop a Valk, that is just foolishness depending on luck. The BS of the shooter will matter more than the extra d6. If you have a proper multiple-Melta unit that would reliably crack AV14, then you won't need the extra d6 against an AV12 Skimmer out of cover / not moving fast.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Monolith is AV14, not AV12. There's a big difference there.
- AV14, you need S8+2d6 to reliably pen
- AV12, you have good chances to glance or pen even with basic S8
- and Valk is Skimmer, so dies to Immobilized

If you were planning on a single Melta to drop a Valk, that is just foolishness depending on luck. The BS of the shooter will matter more than the extra d6. If you have a proper multiple-Melta unit that would reliably crack AV14, then you won't need the extra d6 against an AV12 Skimmer out of cover / not moving fast.

Skimmers only die to immobilized if they moved flat out in the previous movement phase.

Shush, he plays Apocalypse.

sourclams wrote:Shush, he plays Apocalypse.

I hear math works differently there.

I'm sorry, when did regular 40k remove the possibility for Skimmers to die to Immoblized entirely?

And when was it added for Monoliths and other AV14 vehicles?

Oh wait, the Valk, being a Skimmer, actually does have a extra vulnerability not present on AV14 things like the Monolith / Land Raider / Leman Russ...

Silly you.

but with Strength 8 againts AV12 it is still a 50/50 chance of failing to pen completly. An extra D6 would work wonders. I'm just saying that 2D6 is always better than 1D6.

I'm sorry, when did regular 40k remove the possibility for Skimmers to die to Immoblized entirely?

Willydstyle already pointed out that skimmers only die to immobilization results when moving flat out (12-24"). Due to the amount of weapons present on Valkyries and Vendettas, these vehicles will rarely be moving so fast, unless suffering from a Vehicle Shaken result.

So, no, these skimmers are generally not any more vulnerable than the other vehicles you mentioned.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm sorry, when did regular 40k remove the possibility for Skimmers to die to Immoblized entirely?

And when was it added for Monoliths and other AV14 vehicles?

Oh wait, the Valk, being a Skimmer, actually does have a extra vulnerability not present on AV14 things like the Monolith / Land Raider / Leman Russ...

Silly you.

The Valkyrie, being a skimmer, also gains a cover save when it moves flat out, making it more durable than the disadvantage on the damage table hinders its durability. In fact, a flat-out skimmer is probably about as durable against half-range melta as an AV 14 vehicle... but does not cost as many points. When you then factor in the fact that the Valkyrie is much more likely to be outside of the half-range mark due to its height, and you have a vehicle that is more durable, for cheaper, and is faster.

SHUSH APOCALYPSE LALALALALA

So now, nobody in regular 40k is placing their vehicles in cover?

Of course!

I would really like to see a well organized GW strike. Get as many people to stop buying and stop playing at any GW stores until the FAQ's and Codex issues are addressed.

What about those of us who don't play at GW stores today?

If we're already playing at home, and buying on discount, then there isn't much less we can give GW.

JohnHwangDD wrote:So now, nobody in regular 40k is placing their vehicles in cover?

Of course!

Yeah, good luck getting cover with your Monolith.

You're playing with 10" tall LoS obscuring terrain?

That extra d6 for meltas literally turns you from killing a tank with 4 melta hits to killing a tank with 2 melta hits on average. I'd say that is a BIG deal.

I am not supporting a boycott of Valkyreez. They make for great looted fighta-bommas!

If you run into a crybabee, drill a hole in the supplied base and the bottom of the Valkyrie - then use a standard GW skimmer rod to mount it on the base. Problem Solved™

We play with 5" tall obscuring terrain - most buildings are that high, and all you need is 50% coverage to get Hull Down.

But then, the Monolith doesn't really need cover, BECAUSE MELTAS NEVER GET THE EXTRA D6 AGAINST LIVING METAL, so they are categorically superior to AV12 Valk survivability in every situation.



Getting back to the only other AV14 vehicles, Russes & Land Raiders, they should be in cover or popping smoke if they're expecting serious firepower back.

Math-wise, S8+2d6 vs AV14 in cover or smoke (which should be the default for any tank) is about the same as S8+d6 vs AV12 not moving fast. Anything beside the Melta, and that skimmer drops a lot easier. Certainly, being immune to S6 and S7 weapons, and unpenetrable by anything S8 has benefits.

I don't know about you, but my Valkyrie flight stands that came with my Valks (read: supplised by GW) are as tall as those buildings, so I most likely won't be hiding 50% of the model itself behind them.

Depends on your proximity to the building...

Please forgive the following crappy ASCI diagram.

             /___        valk
           / |O|O|        |
         /   |  |  |        |
       /     |O|O|        |
     /       |  |  |        |
   /         |O|O|        |
las          |  |  |       _|_

The key point to take away here is that thanks to our dear friend trigonometry, you can be covered by something shorter than you. Run a war machine heavy WHFB list if you need a refresher course in trig.

JohnHwangDD wrote:What about those of us who don't play at GW stores today?

If we're already playing at home, and buying on discount, then there isn't much less we can give GW.

Then you'll be fine sitting back and adding online support for the cause. If we could get a good turn out to not shop direct from GW, they would notice.