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Its not the size it how you use it?



JohnH's argument is appropriate though. Interesting item came up. If your standard skimmer is 1.5in off the ground, and you can only deploy up to 2in from the door, if we’re talking full 3d aren’t you saying you can’t deploy anything at all as a standard trooper base is one in wide (1+1.5> 2.0)? Alternatively, if you could get one mini aren’t you really saying only one rank of minis could ever get out? (again 1+1.5>2.0). Mathematically how do you do that if you’re following the 3d argument?

edit: @ yani

well p.71 explicitly states that skimmers in fact cannot land in battle conditions, so as a house rule its fine but that is against the normal rules.

@ others

Anyways save the discussion about whether the rules work for valks or not for another thread. If you don't like the OPs idea, then dont post or post a polite reason why you disagree.

No need to derail the thread and act condescending.

Politely.

1. There is an easy fix IF there is an issue. Problem solved.
2. If they don't like it, don't waste the money on the model. problem solved.

Next issue.

@ Dracos sorry if you found that post offending. It was not intended to have that effect.
Derail the thread? Its a thread about not buying Valks am I not allowed to defend them?

Frazzled wrote:Its not the size it how you use it?



JohnH's argument is appropriate though. Interesting item came up. If your standard skimmer is 1.5in off the ground, and you can only deploy up to 2in from the door, if we’re talking full 3d aren’t you saying you can’t deploy anything at all as a standard trooper base is one in wide (1+1.5> 2.0)? Alternatively, if you could get one mini aren’t you really saying only one rank of minis could ever get out? (again 1+1.5>2.0). Mathematically how do you do that if you’re following the 3d argument?

A better understanding of math might help.

Perhaps a better way to state it is that if the bases are 1" wide, the distance to the 2nd rank would be 1.5^2 + 1^2 = D^2

The distance to the 2nd rank would be 1.80277564. Since this triangle is valid for any directions, that makes at least 3 ranks. so if one can disembark @ 1.5 inches, then 9 total models, at least, can.

@yani, sorry I didnt express myself there correctly, only the first line should have been addressed to you.

Its just teething problems eh?? I remember back in 88' when the Landpredator came on the scene - there was uproar. Don't even get me started on the Whirlspeeder!

..
...

(sorry i'll leave this thread now as its clear i have nothing productive to say)

yani wrote:When you want to disembark from a Valk simply remove the flying base place the valk on the ground and deploy around it.

What? Common sense? Begone foul Daemon!

Seriously, the problem is that a bunch of donkeycaves would then claim that you aren't following the rule to use the base that was provided.

Donkeycaves, one and all.

Don't play with them.

Dracos wrote:While I would be happy to explain in detail why simply doing that is an unfair way to play the model, its already been done in the YMTC thread.

I think there is a fair way to play the model though, and I think being condescending that your interpretation of the way to play it is the only way or obvious is just as bad if not worse than whining about the problem.

I know the points, and could not disagree more strongly. I dont see how its "not fair" to play the model like you would play any other model, as it was obviously inteded.

But we have been around that merry go round a thousand times. We do not and will not agree, and thats fine you have every right to your point of view.

Back to the point of a boycot, thats also your right, but it will acomplish nothing as you are definitely in a strong minority as most people have no problems playing the model normally. Even if they did, GW - DOES NOT CARE!!!

You have to know that by now, so if you want a resolution you have three choices.

1. Use a recognized tournament approved FAQ such as the INAT as your guidline.
2. Use a house rule where you play and check with the TO at any tournaments as to how they will play it.
3. Sell the models to Me, or any of the many others who would be very happy to take them off your hands.

We all make the choice to play a game with some huge holes in it, thats just the nature of the GW hobby. The sooner you accept that and move on to try to enjoy your hobby the happier you, and those you play with will be.

Just My opinion, and sorry if I sounded condecending to you, it was not my intent.

Well articulated and polite.

Dracos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its not the size it how you use it?



JohnH's argument is appropriate though. Interesting item came up. If your standard skimmer is 1.5in off the ground, and you can only deploy up to 2in from the door, if we’re talking full 3d aren’t you saying you can’t deploy anything at all as a standard trooper base is one in wide (1+1.5> 2.0)? Alternatively, if you could get one mini aren’t you really saying only one rank of minis could ever get out? (again 1+1.5>2.0). Mathematically how do you do that if you’re following the 3d argument?

A better understanding of math might help.

Perhaps a better way to state it is that if the bases are 1" wide, the distance to the 2nd rank would be 1.5^2 + 1^2 = D^2

The distance to the 2nd rank would be 1.80277564. Since this triangle is valid for any directions, that makes at least 3 ranks. so if one can disembark @ 1.5 inches, then 9 total models, at least, can.

@yani, sorry I didnt express myself there correctly, only the first line should have been addressed to you.

Wrong answer Canadian. As punishment you must ship one dozen Tim Hortons maple glaized my way.
You have 2in depolyment from the hatch
less 1.5 vertical drop (watch that first step, its a doosy)
that leaves you with .5in remaining.

At this point you have a legal decision tree.
1. Do I accept that a 1in base may fit in that remaining .5in? If yes (accepted as its says contact within 2in) then:
2. You get one rank, one uno einz rank of 1in minis to feet. Else you're cheating you cheating McCheaterton beacuse you've moved more than 2in in total on the 3D perspective. So whats you're max? Remember girls there's no rule permitting you to place minis under your skimmer. Its definitely not a full squad. Unless of course, you're cheating you bunch of cheaters.

Umm frazzled the whole base does not have to fit inside the .5 inches (which is basically an erroneous premise anyways, as you should be using the correct math to figure out the distance if you are not just going to measure it anyways) the closes part of the base only has to be within that distance. Check out p.3 of BGB to figure out how to measure distance in WH40k. Closest side of base, not the far side.

So we're agreed closest side of the base. That fits one row. Then what?

To keep things simple, I think I will just put my valkyries on those small "clear plastic flynig bases" the rulebook talks about, instead of these really large, half clear, half black stilettoheel bases that seem to have no reference whatsoever in the rulebook. Should make things much easier.

When disembarking each model must be deployed within the 2". So, going on your example, you have one dude that can go down 1.5 inches of an access point and be deployed there.

Next we look at deploying additional models around that dude. Note they do not have to move in a direct line down then out (is that what you are saying? I don't see that supported anywhere) but are simply deployed within 2". So, if i put a guy directly adjacent to the first, in any direct, you can draw a triangle from the point directly above the first model (which we know to be 1.5 inches in this example) and then along the ground to the edge of the closest side of the base of the 2nd model. This is where that math formula comes in, because it tells us EXACTLY what that 3rd distance going from the 2nd model back to the access point is based on the first 2 measurements.

the 1.58 inches is how far away the 2nd model would be from the access point.

Its really simple math here, like junior high math.

I know the points, and could not disagree more strongly. I dont see how its "not fair" to play the model like you would play any other model

You create house rules for all of your other models?

1. I don't believe you. That doesn't work because it overlaps the first row-remember the other guys' base are 1in as well, and you can't have anything underslung under the skimmer. If I could draw it would be easier-a stencil a stencil my kingdom for a stencil!
2. I'm a lawyer. Nothing is fixed, including numbers.

Funny, I was about to pull out MSpaint and demonstrate for you.

Wow 46 replies in just a few hours and only about 5 of you managed to stay on topic.

Although it certainly was not the point of my post, you folks certainly have proven why this model is so controversial as to be pretty much unplayable IMHO. The guys I game with are probably a lot like most of you and the very points many of you make are the same things we discussed. And these are just not topics I want to spend my gaming night discussing (as I stated in the OP). So on the shelf they stay (now for those of you who have reading comprehension problems let me clearly state that there is no 'for sale' offer in that statement).

A big thank you to the folks who did stay on topic.

I pulled out the trusty old ruler. You're right. You could do two ranks (maximum) assuming 1in bases.

Houston I think we have a problem with, all skimmers buahaha if we apply this rule.

Danny Internets wrote:

I know the points, and could not disagree more strongly. I dont see how its "not fair" to play the model like you would play any other model

You create house rules for all of your other models?

No of course not, its not necessary. The game plays just fine using the Valk as any other model. Using the base as a measuring point does not do anything to make the Valkyrie "not fair". Nor does using 2D deployment for the Valk, like everyone has always done with every other skimmer.

Nor does using the Big Waagh Ruling, or the ruling expected for the INAT faq. They all allow you to disembark normally as the designers intended without causing any "unfair" penalty on any other models.

This is a manufactured controversey that serves no positive purpose.

Frazzled wrote:I pulled out the trusty old ruler. You're right. You could do two ranks (maximum) assuming 1in bases.

Houston I think we have a problem with, all skimmers buahaha if we apply this rule.

And what I've pointed out is only actually true if the access point is actually just a singular, small "point" on the model. If it is say a 2 or 3" long access point, I could easily see deploying 10-15 models using the same practical application of the same formula. As it is, just the one model @ 1.5 inches was enough to get 8 more out in 1.58 inches (total 9).

If we were sitting in a room together, I would be feeding you those delicious timmy's maple doughnuts while exploring individual models to see which do/do not confict with this rule. This hypothetical doesnt prove anything other than the standard 1.5" base COULD allow a skimmer to disembark, if its access point was suitably placed. I'm not going to go through each individual one though.

Marshal Torrick wrote:And as we all know, flying machines always sit statically in the air at a fixed hieght and certainly NEVER approach the ground for any reason. /sarcasm

People, it's a game.

Yeah, and the rules of said game also state that my guys can't turn their heads for the purposes of LOS and that if one model in a squad happens to have it's foot sticking out, the entire squad can be targeted and killed.

If troops sit statically and never react like you think they should then why should the valkyrie?

Dracos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I pulled out the trusty old ruler. You're right. You could do two ranks (maximum) assuming 1in bases.

Houston I think we have a problem with, all skimmers buahaha if we apply this rule.

And what I've pointed out is only actually true if the access point is actually just a singular, small "point" on the model. If it is say a 2 or 3" long access point, I could easily see deploying 10-15 models using the same practical application of the same formula. As it is, just the one model @ 1.5 inches was enough to get 8 more out in 1.58 inches (total 9).

That I disagree with to an extyent, just applying pen and paper. Using real world pen and paper (TM hah beat you to it GW!!!!) I'm getting a maximum of 1.5 on the same plane. Thats two rows. because I don't have the minis with me lets assume 2in=4 +2-4 including both sides. At 3in we're talking a full 10 man squad potentially, but live action would show the amount better and who knows may be closer to your theorum(sucky if you have a larger unit).

If we were sitting in a room together, I would be feeding you those delicious timmy's maple doughnuts while exploring individual models to see which do/do not confict with this rule. This hypothetical doesnt prove anything other than the standard 1.5" base COULD allow a skimmer to disembark, if its access point was suitably placed. I'm not going to go through each individual one though.

Mmm donuts.

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Wow 46 replies in just a few hours and only about 5 of you managed to stay on topic.

Although it certainly was not the point of my post, you folks certainly have proven why this model is so controversial as to be pretty much unplayable IMHO. The guys I game with are probably a lot like most of you and the very points many of you make are the same things we discussed. And these are just not topics I want to spend my gaming night discussing (as I stated in the OP). So on the shelf they stay (now for those of you who have reading comprehension problems let me clearly state that there is no 'for sale' offer in that statement).

A big thank you to the folks who did stay on topic.

This pretty much sums up what I was thinking.

Actually I think you've two posters in support, and others who tend to vary in their intensity of disagreement.

I think the topic has lost the mandate of heaven, and I choose to support the rogue topic of this thread. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

Polonius wrote: Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

Stop speaking in your weirdo, non-english words. It angers and frightens me.

That and I know you're just talking about me behind my back, you coward!

Libertie! Egalitie! Fraternitie!

We have always been at war with the OP, we have never been at war with the Valkyrie.

Frazzled wrote:Libertie! Egalitie! Fraternitie!

Vive la Revolution!

[damnit I don't recall how to do accents on my keyboard... FAIL]