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Phryxis wrote:This thread is all about hyperbole. Capitalism is BROKEN, is EVIL. Communism is a MASS MURDERER, BLARG BLARG. G-baby's "liberal" system is UTOPIA PERFEKT.
...
And that's why hyperbolic exaggeration isn't helpful.

I would love for you to explain how liberalism, the dominant political ideology of America, Canada, Western Europe, Australia, and the rest of the "free world," could possibly be described as belonging to me. How does it become my liberal system, exactly?

You know what that is? That's hyperbolic exaggeration.

As is claiming that anyone, let alone me, claimed that liberalism is UTOPIA PERFEKT. Again, hyperbolic exaggeration. All I said is that when people say that capitalism is better than communism, and cite the western democracies as examples of capitalism, they are wrongly attributing the benefits of liberalism to capitalism.

History offers examples of capitalism without liberalism, and authoritarian-capitalist societies are just as brutal as communist countries. The 18th and 19th century in America and Europe, for example, was marked by bitter and bloody violence inflicted on working people for exercising their rights by both government agents and mercenaries in the employ of capitalists. Which, not coincidentally, is what gave rise to socialism. And on top of that violence against its own citizenry, capitalism has always been a driving force behind wars of conquest, colonialism, and imperialism. Even today many American corporations are intimately connected to corrupt and tyrannical governments that brutalize their working class citizens to keep labor costs down and sell off their natural resources for kickbacks.

Gailbraithe wrote:


I would love for you to explain how liberalism, the dominant political ideology of America, Canada, Western Europe, Australia, and the rest of the "free world," could possibly be described as belonging to me. How does it become my liberal system, exactly?

I've gotta ask, are you joking?

Seriously, are you?

Phryxis plainly used euphemistic quotation marks in order to indicate that the word 'liberal' was not to be regarded as a proper term. You yourself have done this, and taken umbrage when people have remarked to that fact.

I'm guessing you love to criticize people for 'disingenuous' behavior because you are well aware that you engage in it in nearly all your posts.

Stop it. Don't be a prick.

Gailbraithe wrote:
You know what that is? That's hyperbolic exaggeration.

No, it isn't. If its anything to be criticized, its false attribution. This is basic logic. Like, high school level.

Guitardian wrote:Problem there is, nobody can agree on who the 'benevolent dictator' should be. I would like to suggest myself... if you get my meaning.

No, the problem is that there will never be an omniscient, benevolent dictator. As Phryxis rightly points out it's an impossibility, and like all extreme, hypothetical states there's little value in discussing it.

All that really matters is how the world really works, what forms of government are really available, and which of those is best.


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Kragura wrote:

No, I'm saying that the overthrow of the Kaiser's regime was not a communist revolution. Some revolutionary elements were communist but they were a minority. This is clear, because in the wake of the revolution a representative democracy was built, which still looked to include the aristrocracy. There was no significant push to build a communist state.

Actually two governments were set up, one made of aristocrats and one made up of soviets, the soviet government came in power in October under Lenin.

Kaiser's regime, dude. Germany. We were discussing whether there'd been a revolution in industrialised Europe. You started talking about Germany, and linked to the German 1918 Revolution. Now you're talking about the whites and the reds in Russia.


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Monster Rain wrote:I think Lord Acton had a pretty poignant quote on the subject.

“Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

I prefer the version from John Lehman, former Secretary of the Navy'

"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."

sebster wrote:
Kaiser's regime, dude. Germany. We were discussing whether there'd been a revolution in industrialised Europe. You started talking about Germany, and linked to the German 1918 Revolution. Now you're talking about the whites and the reds in Russia.

Whoops my bad. in my original question (I'm confused... are you saying... blabbity blabitty blah) I was referring to the Russian revolution I should of made this clear.

sebster said something a couple of posts back that I found inspirational. It was along the lines of "all that matters is how the world really works".

Well the world is really ugly and brutal and life is short and it is a struggle, no matter what walk of life you come from.

Leona Helmsley died after being a kept princess for years and essentially one of the only people I can say I'm glad the b!tch died finally. She left millions of dollars to her little yappie dog. That's the reality.

Obama almost lost the Presidential election because superstitious religious-rights kept to their guns and voted against him because their pastor told them that if a Muslim gets into power the world will end; Completely ignorant of the fact that he is not a Muslim, and that god thinks on a rather larger scale than the white house.

Accident forgiveness exists in insurance companies... so for every person who gets killed by a bad driver, there is a bad driver happy that he got the right insurance policy.

Hurricanes evidently hate us all, but especially people with a southern accent.

The United Statesian powers that be did not (by their own definition) torture any of the unlawfully detained possible terrorists because waterboarding and humiliation and prolonged positions are not technically (according to their own convenient definition) 'torture' just interrogation.

Dogs and Cats still hate each other, Food rots in silos while farmers get subsidies and foreign nations starve sometimes and beg for help on late-night infomercials. Africa is full of despotic warlords, but nothing is done about them because nobody here gives a gak because Africa is not a financially viable investment for the people in the position to give a gak. Meanwhile China has a horrible human rights violation record, yet is still on our 'good' list because we owe them money... money spent on a military effort to topple a dictor because of his.. hmm... human rights violations?

Need I go on... I could write several pages of ugly truth and I'm sure so can all of you. The point being, utopian goals are the only thing we have to cling to in a world that is so obviously flawed.

It is not unrealistic, it is not unattainable, it is just going to take some time for the lines on maps and sense of greed and viciousness and ownership become as much a thing of the past as thinking the world was flat.
how much more reality do you want?

Kragura wrote:Whoops my bad. in my original question (I'm confused... are you saying... blabbity blabitty blah) I was referring to the Russian revolution I should of made this clear.

No problem, you've been replying to a load of people in this thread, easy to lose track of things. But to move the conversation on, do you agree that there hasn't been a communist revolution in industrialised Europe? That while the German revolution had communist elements, it was not a communist revolution because the final result was nothing like a communist state?


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Guitardian wrote:Need I go on... I could write several pages of ugly truth and I'm sure so can all of you. The point being, utopian goals are the only thing we have to cling to in a world that is so obviously flawed.

But that isn't the real world. Focusing on the ugliest and worst parts of our society is not any more real than ignoring them entirely, both are fantasies.

The real world has a lot of beauty, a lot of ugliness, but more than either it's got a whole lot of very boring bleh. It might be simpler, and more exciting, to focus intensely on the beauty or the ugliness, but it isn't very true and it won't help with making decent government.

It is not unrealistic, it is not unattainable, it is just going to take some time for the lines on maps and sense of greed and viciousness and ownership become as much a thing of the past as thinking the world was flat.
how much more reality do you want?

Utopian visions have a place, but it isn't as an escape from the real world. More's Utopia, for instance, is a great read, but not because we should aspire to that world, but because it casts a light on what life is really like and why it is that way. For instance, More notes that in Utopia the rules of law are short and written in plain language, because any law that can't be understood by the common man is inherently unfair. It isn't practical to have a legal code written that's that simple, but it should indicate we should make the law as simple as is possible, and capable of being understood by everyone wherever possible.

Yes in that case I will agree that the German revolution was not a communist one and no I cannot think of another example of a communist revolution in industrial Europe, (unless you count Hungary) however I still hold that the Russian revolution is an example of workers leading a revolution.

dogma wrote:No, that isn't the only relevant definition,.

c : the greater quantity or share <the majority of the time>

Source.

I bet that community college education is biting you in the ass right about now.

Hey play nice. Community college is filled with people who couldn't afford to go to the big leagues for their full degree or hard working peeps going for vocational.


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Gailbraithe wrote:

Albatross wrote:He's never attacked me personally, or far as I'm aware, anyone apart from you. In fact, I find dogma to be one of the more reasonable Dakkites - don't make the mistake of thinking it's because we agree with each other all the time. We rarely interact, but when we do it's civil, even if it's a subject we disagree strongly on. That's pretty much how he seems to conduct himself on here all the time.

If you are getting PMs and you have asked the poster to stop, then tell the Mods. Now.
If they are rude PMs then tell the poster to stop. If they do not, tell the Mods and forward the message.Now

On the positive the Ignore feature is being worked on to extend to PMs, but its not done yet.


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And you can get testicular cancer and die from exploding balls for all I fething care. Go. Die. Now.

I am going to have to remember that one...


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Gailbraithe (sp) and Dogma, please see your private message inbox.


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Cryonicleech wrote:So, before this thread de-rails...

Are communist women pretty? Lol

In all seriousness though, I can't imagine that it's really that bad, is it? Ideologies aside, but day to day life under communism isn't radically different, is it?

You mean other than the Gulag/concentration camp thing?


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Guitardian wrote:I dont trust Chuck Norris I think he's up to something.
I don't trust Dogma just based on the name...
I don't trust me because I'm thoroughly incompetent and kind of a jerk...

seee.... now we have political factions again!

ack.. all my plans have gone awry in 3 or 4 posts!

Remember, a vote for Frazzled is a vote for Freedom!

Relapse wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Relapse wrote:I really don't hear about many people from a Capitalist society risking thier lives jumping the fence to live in a Communist one.
On the other hand, I lived around and worked with quite a few people that have risked their liberty and lives to get out of Communist societies to live in the good ole' repressive, capitalist, U.S.A.

It used to happen quite a lot before their economies collapsed in the 80s. It's not a surprise that you didn't hear about it much if you think about it. Nobody want's that kind of thing promoted.

I just wnt to make sure I read you correctly. Are you saying people risked being machine gunned, sent to detention, etc. in droves to escape England, the U.S., Canada to live in the welcome, free, and heady climates of free thinking Red China, Russia and other communist countries?
Sorry in advance if I misunderstand. It's just that I know people that were sent to "reeducation" camps in communist countries and I laugh if that's what you are saying.

No, they just got on an airliner and flew there, getting in is easy. The Soviet Union welcomed skilled communist westerners.

The picture painted here is that Communist countries seek to implrison and enslave everyone in their population. This seems silly. I'm sure there were plenty of compliant hard working 'good' citizens in the U.S.S.R. who may not have been overjoyed by their system, but happy enough to live within it. You can't have a whole country populated by criminals. In the U.S.A. if you are a dissident, the law cracks down on you. You asked for it. The law dictates that you have to pay your taxes. If you don't you are a criminal. Criminals pay the consequences for breaking the law, no matter what the specific law is. Over here I cannot say "I want to kill the president" without getting into trouble. I cannot burn an American flag either. Dissidents are punished by governments who try to keep the population in line, and that has nothing to do with economic practice.

Kragura wrote:Yes in that case I will agree that the German revolution was not a communist one and no I cannot think of another example of a communist revolution in industrial Europe, (unless you count Hungary) however I still hold that the Russian revolution is an example of workers leading a revolution.

The paris commune. 1870s.
Just out of curiosity.... marx predicted that the revolution would start in industrialized countries like germany and the u.s. infact it happened in very agrarian countries like china and russia. how do you account for that? IMO communism in the 20th century has alot more to do with rebellion against feudalism than it does with rebellion against capitalism; as an international phenomena its more concerned with opposition to western imperialism than it is to the redistribution of goods within a state. north vietnam is a good example of how the 1st concern totally overrode the 2nd. How could Ho Chi Minh get russian support against the west except by embracing communism? If we'd kept our promise early on to help them gain their independence, we never would have had to fight there. AF

Frazzled wrote:Hey play nice. Community college is filled with people who couldn't afford to go to the big leagues for their full degree or hard working peeps going for vocational.

Absolutely, but how many of those vocational students are going to demand credentials from people on the internet, and condescendingly debate the various definitions of the word 'majority'?

George Spiggott wrote:

Relapse wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Relapse wrote:I really don't hear about many people from a Capitalist society risking thier lives jumping the fence to live in a Communist one.
On the other hand, I lived around and worked with quite a few people that have risked their liberty and lives to get out of Communist societies to live in the good ole' repressive, capitalist, U.S.A.

It used to happen quite a lot before their economies collapsed in the 80s. It's not a surprise that you didn't hear about it much if you think about it. Nobody want's that kind of thing promoted.

I just wnt to make sure I read you correctly. Are you saying people risked being machine gunned, sent to detention, etc. in droves to escape England, the U.S., Canada to live in the welcome, free, and heady climates of free thinking Red China, Russia and other communist countries?
Sorry in advance if I misunderstand. It's just that I know people that were sent to "reeducation" camps in communist countries and I laugh if that's what you are saying.

No, they just got on an airliner and flew there, getting in is easy. The Soviet Union welcomed skilled communist westerners.

On the other side of the coin, people risked risked being machine gunned, sent to detention, etc. in droves to get out of Communist countries. It might have been easy to get in, but from what people I know that escaped from Communist countries told me, it was Hell's own time getting out.

Community college is just as difficult as 'real' schools. Hey freshman math doesn't change because you go to a cheaper school. 1+1=2 even if you go to a cheap school. If anything community college students have to try harder to excel because they often have sub-par 'instructors' instead of experienced professors. Math classes are one thing because a correct answer is a correct answer no matter what. Classes where the grades are more subjective (like anything involving critical thinking, and writing papers) are more difficult if your instructor is stupid, or biased. She got a C in her 'world religions' class because her teacher didn't agree with the subject matter of her paper. Her teacher was a Catholic, and she wrote from an agnostic point of view. That kind of grading bias doesn't occur as much in 'real' colleges, but it's all over the place in community colleges. Another good one is the man-hating lesbien 'womens studies' teacher who had only two males in her class, both of whom got Fs. It was a good paper, I know because I proofread it for my friend. I know this from watching my GF struggle through her classes, not for lack of intelligence, but because the person responsible for grading her papers was an idiot. So community college is actually more difficult than 'real' college, not because of the subject matter, but because you often end up with a really stupid person responsible for your GPA.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Hey play nice. Community college is filled with people who couldn't afford to go to the big leagues for their full degree or hard working peeps going for vocational.

Absolutely, but how many of those vocational students are going to demand credentials from people on the internet, and condescendingly debate the various definitions of the word 'majority'?

Very few and I understood your point entirely. On that note, it was mildly offensive but I am not particularly concerned. You could play nicer though.

I am relatively happy with the concept that I can get an AA through community college, followed by 2 years of general ed. before 3 more in a standard college.

6-7 years of education in the long run, money saved and the option to round that off with a 2-3 year masters degree, leaving me with a decade of study. Serious fething business.
I wouldn't be able to do go to a 4-year if it weren't for the community college format supporting my endeavor.

You should have just quoted him...

dogma wrote:Stop it. Don't be a prick.

Dogma's comment wasn't a slap at Community College as I understand it.

It was a whimsical poke at someone's rather unreasonable behavior and inflated opinion of himself. That's all I'm going to say about the subject, just throwing my interpretation out there.

In that case another quote...

dogma wrote:I've gotta ask, are you joking?

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Hey play nice. Community college is filled with people who couldn't afford to go to the big leagues for their full degree or hard working peeps going for vocational.

Absolutely, but how many of those vocational students are going to demand credentials from people on the internet, and condescendingly debate the various definitions of the word 'majority'?

I didn't demand credentials from anyone in particular, I just said that I didn't want to talk about race issues with anyone who hadn't taken at least a college level course on the issue. Mostly because I get tired of having the same old ignorant arguments, and because a lot of people can't handle having their racism pointed out.

And I'm not condescendingly debating the definition of 'majority,' you're the one doing that. I used majority exactly as the word is used by most people everyday, and you made this smart-alecky, condescending comment about community colleges because according to some really pedantic, nonstandard definition of majority that didn't fit my context you claim I was wrong. Or something. You didn't really claim anything, you were just being a condescending jerk. Like always.

How long exactly are you warranted to punish me for the crimes you think I've committed before your behavior stops being my fault and you start taking responsibility for the fact that you keep derailing threads on these stupid, trivial and pedantic arguments you feel the obsessive need to start with me?

Or are you Internet Police Powers infinite, and you get to keep attacking me over and over and over, derailing thread after thread, never taking responsibility for yourself, because everything you do is my fault, because of something I said a month ago? two months ago? A year from now are you still going to be nitpicking and making these cockamamie arguments because I once got frustrated and petulantly demanded that if anyone was going to argue with me on a subject, I wanted them to at least present an informed argument?

Grow the feth up, dogma. You are such a hypocrite.

Dogma
hey.... dont be down on community college grads. if you disagree with the guy just disagree with him. Guitardian is right - just because you didnt go to a name brand school doesnt mean you're wrong or uneducated. Its the argument not the person that matters.

I think that you all are arguing about a pretty small point anyway. According to Merriam Webster both definition sof a majority are valid.
AF

Ahhh the lovely lovely difficulty of sarcasm in type. In the past few days I have become accused of being a reckless fugitive, a KKK member, a homophobe, an anti-semite, and a Jesus hating Satanist. In all fairness it is hard to tell when people are joking sometimes, so maybe I am all of those things and just don't know it. All of this from the comfort of our own living rooms/cubicles/etc.

Gailbraithe wrote:

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Hey play nice. Community college is filled with people who couldn't afford to go to the big leagues for their full degree or hard working peeps going for vocational.

Absolutely, but how many of those vocational students are going to demand credentials from people on the internet, and condescendingly debate the various definitions of the word 'majority'?

I didn't demand credentials from anyone in particular, I just said that I didn't want to talk about race issues with anyone who hadn't taken at least a college level course on the issue. Mostly because I get tired of having the same old ignorant arguments, and because a lot of people can't handle having their racism pointed out.

And I'm not condescendingly debating the definition of 'majority,' you're the one doing that. I used majority exactly as the word is used by most people everyday, and you made this smart-alecky, condescending comment about community colleges because according to some really pedantic, nonstandard definition of majority that didn't fit my context you claim I was wrong. Or something. You didn't really claim anything, you were just being a condescending jerk. Like always.

How long exactly are you warranted to punish me for the crimes you think I've committed before your behavior stops being my fault and you start taking responsibility for the fact that you keep derailing threads on these stupid, trivial and pedantic arguments you feel the obsessive need to start with me?

Oh, I wouldn't go throwing around accusations concerning derailed threads if I were you, Brohemoth.

Guitardian wrote:Ahhh the lovely lovely difficulty of sarcasm in type. In the past few days I have become accused of being a reckless fugitive, a KKK member, a homophobe, an anti-semite, and a Jesus hating Satanist. In all fairness it is hard to tell when people are joking sometimes, so maybe I am all of those things and just don't know it. All of this from the comfort of our own living rooms/cubicles/etc.

I think you're all those things, but I appreciate you.

..well okay the Satanist part I guess was pretty fair... where are my sacrificial pig's feet? I hate it when I lose those things!

This thread is awesome. I still can't get over how an Ivy leaguer is "having a poke" at someone's "inflated opinion" of themselves by rubbishing community education. classic.

I thought dogma didn't finish college? Not that it matters.


Which is kind of the point. You can have a university education and be wrong. You can have no education and be right.

whatwhat wrote:This thread is awesome. I still can't get over how an Ivy leaguer is "having a poke" at someone's "inflated opinion" of themselves by rubbishing community education. classic.

Only someone that went to a community would misinterpret the statement in such a way.

*adjusts monocle and goes back to reading Le Monde*

My dad is a college professor and dean. He has made some of the dumbest life decisions I have ever seen. I am a college dropout (just shy of the finish line), and dropping out was probably one of the best decisions I ever made.

back to commies though... this college thing kind of peeks its ugly head into the university culture. A lot of students recieve loans to go to a school they cannot afford, have no intention to pay back, but feel they need to in order to qualify for a 'better' job, even if they aren't exactly 'college material'.

Who pays for these unpaid loans? See we have our social policies here too, regardless of whether it's a totaltarian fascist government or a capitalist democracy we still pay taxes. We just disguise our slavery with democracy, and the fact that dumbass-johnny the lawn-mowing guy or Joe-the-plumber can go get an edumacation he will never understand or use, so he can get a piece of paper in order to plug back into the system and work.

Doesn't it seem like communist economic idealism is just doing the same thing but without disguising it behind stupid students buying a degree they later have to pay for that did them and no-one else any good except a piece of paper that is often a requirement for many jobs. May as well just go to the factory in the first place like the commies do.

I have tutored college level students who didn't even know how to use a period, and wrote papers that use 'like' and 'y'know' in their actual text. Do they really need to be in college? Yet our culture encourages, often requires, a stupid piece of paper that someone has to pay for before they are allowed to be happy wage slaves and contribute to our greater good. Cut out the middle man and teach people what they need to do. Why mess around with academics for a guy who just wants to be a welder? Just teach him to weld and let him get to work. Critical thinking classes aren't really necessary. (One of my students was a welder, who was required to go to cc when his company changed their policies of hiring, is why I used that as an example... no offense to welders.)

Where are all these welders that are being press-ganged into studying art history and sociology?

Ohio. They decided that all of them needed a secondary education program. Just a semester, and just some basic classes at the 101 CC level. 'critical thinking 101' 'english 101' 'math 101' etc.

hey you asked.

actually I have a hunch it was a way to cull the numbers for economic depression reasons and this was a good way to weed people out without having to pay them unemployment benefits. that's just my hunchy conspiratorial mind at work though.

Is secondary education not mandatory in the USA, like?