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Again the clarification comes forward. Recoil or no, if an initial burst caused the round to reach near max velocity in an extremely short period of time (hundredths or thousandths of a second), there is no major effect on combat effectiveness or armor piercing capabilities.
It just seems more logical to use a system like that, especially given the design of the bolter on the models.
Whether the lore disagrees is another issue, but based on observation, an immediate-post barrel burst makes sense. it does not diminish effectiveness at close or long range (and also seems to match the picture on the from of the SM codex, where a blast field similar to a post-barrel burst (occuring within the perforated end of the bolter) seems to be depicted.

I could see a bolter ripping arms off normal men, the guns designed for superhuman genitically enhanced warriors!

Botten3 wrote:I could see a bolter ripping arms off normal men, the guns designed for superhuman genitically enhanced warriors!

Actually, I think that bolters - just like power armour - have been in use before the Space Marines were even invented (see the so-called techno-barbarians in the time before the Emperor had conquered all of Earth). The very fact that Space Marines, even their non-powerarmoured Scouts, also utilize a much bigger version of the bolter - the heavy bolter - already establishes that a boltgun is obviously not requiring the peak of a Marine's strength. Further, all available studio sources continuously mention weight and cumbersome nature to be the problems faced by most people employing bolt weaponry, but never recoil. The latter quite simply seems to be made up by some people and is not backed up by any material published by GW.

Ah, also I've just found this in the Wargear book:
"The bolt contains an armour-piercing tip, an explosive and a mass-reactive detonator. It is shot from the barrel under low velocity, its own propellant igniting once the missile is clear of the barrel."
Basic physics tells us that lower velocity means less recoil. Additionally, a bolt weapon's massive weight would decrease recoil further, as larger mass requires more kinetic energy to be moved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25

I'd imagine it works something like this puppy does. The conversion from mm to caliber puts it at like .98 or somewhere around there, I believe... I don't have any of the fluff in front of me but that sounds close enough. Instead of being airbursting though it bursts after penetration.

Yeah, bolt pistol and boltgun rounds are cal .75 (19mm), whereas the heavy bolter is cal 1.00 (25mm).

Of course, a bolt missile still has to accelerate the projectile to sufficient speed as to punch through armour, but this does not seem to be a problem in the setting. The combined effect of the initial propellant and the rocket motor appears to be enough.]

Guardsman use bolters, their arms don't get ripped off
Case closed

They use Bolters that are modified for human usage.

Where did that bit of info come from?

From Lexicanum:

The models used by the Astartes and the Sisters of Battle are much bigger and heavier than those given to officers of the Imperial Guard, for example.

Ok...
Wait, Battle Sisters are normal humans, just very devoted
AND their power armour isn't the same as the SM version
I'm confused...

From Lexicanum:

They cannot be handled properly without artificial support like that provided by the Power Armour used by both organisations.

The problem with Lexicanum is that it treats non-studio information just as "canonical" as the stuff coming directly from GW, which is plain wrong and contradicted by comments from the people who are actually working for either GW and/or BL.

There is also non-studio material suggesting that the bolters are exactly the same (such as the Munitorum Manual), so for Lexicanum it depends on who enters what information from what source. Doesn't change the contradictions, though, or that this is quite simply not necessarily how it works as per GW, where such differences have been entirely absent since over 20 years.

Andy Hoare wrote:It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.

I think DH makes a distinction too.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think DH makes a distinction too.

That's what I mean - and that RPG is probably the reason for why a growing number (the ones who think that everything the franchise is churning out is "canon") is coming to accept it as a fact. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

If you're going by DH, the Sisters Militant don't even get the "real" bolters that whoever wrote that line into Lexicanum would grant them but rather "civilian" ones. Which goes against both the codex material as well as the fact that they do occasionally fight Astartes which are nigh-invulnerable against these "civilian" weapons. Which is a (bad) joke in itself, though that's more of a balancing issue rather than a fluff one.

I think Sisters have their own pattern of Bolter.

They have, but a pattern does not make an entirely new category. When you go by GW material, their weapons are equal. If you go by DH, they're very clearly not.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Wait, Battle Sisters are normal humans, just very devoted
AND their power armour isn't the same as the SM version

And why would it be? A human couldn't even fit in a Marine's power armor.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think Sisters have their own pattern of Bolter.

They do, the Godwyn-Deaz pattern boltgun. There's many other patterns of boltguns, which are designed for "civilian" purposes (mostly nobles, bounty hunters, enforcers/arbites, etc).

Well, an astartes couldn't use a regular human sized bolter just based on the fact that they are 1.5 times the size of a human... I mean, with his armored gauntlets his fingers couldn't fit inside the trigger guard.

How could it ever be a two-handed weapon for them, if they were the same size as normal human sized bolters?

Evocatus wrote:How could it ever be a two-handed weapon for them, if they were the same size as normal human sized bolters?

The mistake that some people - including BL and FFG writers - make, is that size doesn't change anything about the caliber or ammunition size/composition/efficiency. When you look at the cross section GW made, there's much more stuff you can fit into the casing aside from the basic weapon mechanism - examples include integrated autorepair or a sensor that makes sure only the real owner can use the gun. In addition to this, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Astartes slap a bit of armour around the weapon and even the magazine to guard it against the increased physical stress of Astartes combat (read: using the gun as a club or busting through a wall).

That said, size differences between Astartes- and non-Astartes-patterns would probably be negligible either way. First off, there are normal people who can grow as tall as a Marine, and the short ones will likely lack the strength to comfortably carry such a weapon in the first place - so the only ones running around with this gun will be the people who either employ power armour or bionics, or those who are strong enough by nature or mutation. Anyone else would be better off with a bolt pistol, which will still look massive and weigh a lot, but should be more bearable. And the massive look is probably one of the factors that make some individuals opt for using one such weapon in the first place, so ... working as intended.

GW's own Inquisitor RPG had Marines and non-Marines use the same bolter profile, too, by the way. DH on the other hand simply works by the principle of artistic license - be it with its Vindicare Assassins now being permanently attached to an Inquisitor's retinue rather than having every single mission ordered by the High Lord, or by its Deathwatch no longer being a part of the Inquisition, or by its invention of a split between "civilian" and Astartes bolters / plasma guns / flamethrowers etc. All of these deviations from studio material have very likely been made for playability or balancing reasons, for I suppose it would look strange if a Marine would cause more damage by throwing a rock than shooting his bolter. To me, this rather suggests that the Marines' stats (or rather the broken Unnatural traits in general) should be revisited, but I'm just a player, so ...
Don't get me wrong, I love the RPG for its basic ruleset and have great fun playing it, but it breaks codex fluff on more occasions than a Titan has bolts (yes, I may be exaggerating, sue me ).

All I know is in the Ultramarine movie the bolters are ginormous. They're the size of people!

This is what bugs me. Making a gun bigger, will reduce the recoil. I know it's not a realistic setting, but it brakes the illusion.

Which is why you'll have to look elsewhere for an answer, nomotog.

The gun may be bigger, but it also likely has fewer recoil-reducing features, in order to make the weapon simpler and more robust. Similarly, the ammunition is also different in standard Astartes boltguns, doing slightly more damage than non-Astartes versions despite being the same caliber (.75 cal/19mm). They very likely have more kick or a longer, heavier shell (similar to magnum rounds) which would also influence recoil.

Course, this doesn't do enough to explain the weight difference-- the Godwyn pattern boltgun is ~18kg in weight, while the "civilian" version (though owned mostly by those whom are relatively well off due to the expense of obtaining ammunition-- it costs more to fill a boltgun's magazine than it does to supply a squad of guard infantry with two lasgun packs per guardsman) weighs ~7kg.

And yes, Lynata, I know you don't consider Dark Heresy canon. Given that we have no other source that really talks about weight and cost of weapons.... I don't care. Don't even bother responding.

Melissia wrote:slightly more damage than non-Astartes versions

Heh, "slightly". They'd easily be S5 in the TT.
Well, either that or the "civilian" bolters would be S3 - given that there's just a 2 point difference from the lasgun.

Melissia wrote:And yes, Lynata, I know you don't consider Dark Heresy canon. Given that we have no other source that really talks about weight and cost of weapons.... I don't care. Don't even bother responding.

Well, the Inquisitor RPG includes a weight value, and it is equal for the bolter regardless of to whom it is issued. *shrugs*

I know by now that you dislike having your argument challenged, but I feel it necessary to "bother" and point out that some of your points are in violation to GW studio material so other people can make up their own minds on this controversy by analyzing both our arguments. What's confusing me even more is that you insist on accepting this RPG's nerf to the Sisters as "canonical", though. I thought you of all people would protest this.

I don't see why a normal person would be bothered by the recoil of a 19mm low recoil weapon considering that soldiers happily fire 40mm grenade launchers.

Real men do not care about the recoil because they are no affected by it

Melissia wrote:Which is why you'll have to look elsewhere for an answer, nomotog.

The gun may be bigger, but it also likely has fewer recoil-reducing features, in order to make the weapon simpler and more robust. Similarly, the ammunition is also different in standard Astartes boltguns, doing slightly more damage than non-Astartes versions despite being the same caliber (.75 cal/19mm). They very likely have more kick or a longer, heavier shell (similar to magnum rounds) which would also influence recoil.

Course, this doesn't do enough to explain the weight difference-- the Godwyn pattern boltgun is ~18kg in weight, while the "civilian" version (though owned mostly by those whom are relatively well off due to the expense of obtaining ammunition-- it costs more to fill a boltgun's magazine than it does to supply a squad of guard infantry with two lasgun packs per guardsman) weighs ~7kg.

And yes, Lynata, I know you don't consider Dark Heresy canon. Given that we have no other source that really talks about weight and cost of weapons.... I don't care. Don't even bother responding.

That would make the marine boltgun less advance then a normal bolt gun. It's probably just that the ammo is more powerful. Though the gun is also twice as heavy. That means that the ammo would need to be something like 4 times as powerful to go from usability to rip your arm off. (not real math)

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see why a normal person would be bothered by the recoil of a 19mm low recoil weapon

... because it's not a low recoil weapon?

Does it not shoot low velocity bullets that are sped up by a rocket after leaving the barrel?

Kilkrazy wrote:Does it not shoot low velocity bullets that are sped up by a rocket after leaving the barrel?

Correct, it does not. Because then it'd be unable to penetrate flak armor at close range.

It shoots HIGH velocity shells, which then ignite the rocket fuel after leaving the barrel to maintain speed and heading over distance.

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Does it not shoot low velocity bullets that are sped up by a rocket after leaving the barrel?

Correct, it does not. Because then it'd be unable to penetrate flak armor at close range.

It shoots HIGH velocity shells, which then ignite the rocket fuel after leaving the barrel to maintain speed and heading over distance.

Except that GW's Wargear book very clearly states that the projectile is shot at, and I quote, "low velocity".

Perhaps we should accept that this is a sci-fi setting, where a miniature rocket motor apparently is powerful enough to accelerate a projectile to superior speed in a split-second because of technobabble.