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In terms of skills (weapon or ballistic) an Aspect Warrior should be better than a Space Marine. They spend times as long or longer than a SM lives training for their specific aspect of warfare, which is also a basic fundamental state of the Eldar mind, accessed via the war mask.

Well, the Incubus stat-line is simply +1BS compared with Scorpions (mandiblasters is worked into their basic stats, and I think both have weapons that give +1S, though not sure on the last). Granted, Incubus have power weapons.

Mandaloryn, Exarchs it's an odd relationship when reading the fluff, Path of the Warrior especially, where the Aspect Warriors are trained like human Black Ops equivalent and Exarchs are described like demi-gods (with Phoenix Lords being proper gods).

Has heavy weaepons been ironed out?

My thoughts on aspect warriors: This is a compilation of discussions on all three versions of this forum as well as a few biases that I have.

All aspect warriors are supposed to be the epitome of the warrior way. Some variation on that theme but warrior specialists.

WS/BS 4 They are good but they should not be epic good therefore 4.
I 6 Yea! We are eldar and athletes to boot.
S/T 3 W 1 Booh! We are still eldar
Ld 9 We are strongest of the strong and bravest of the brave but we are not fools
either.
A:2 Like DE trueborn or hell brides, like any marine veteran we are good at punching. Albeit at strength 3, we don’t do much without some enhancements.
Exarchs are that much more impressive with +1 to WS, BS, Ld and A.

Dire Avenger: Catapult, Fleet Exarch: Bladestorm and Defend, Options as today.
(I like the idea of TL DA cats and then upgrading guardians to the same 18” A2 range.)

Howling Banshee: Pistol, PW & Mask Exarch: Same optins as today, Acrobatic and War
Shout.
Mask gives them always strike first ability
Acrobatic: The HB are so nimble on their feet, they are not hindered by exiting a moving vehicle, therefore they can charge on the turn they disembark.
War Shout: Ld Test – this grants HB furious resolve giving them +1 S and reroll to hits on the charge. (More effective than current rendition and reduces dependency on doomseer)


Striking Scorpion: Pistol, Chainsword & Mandiblaster Exarch: Stealth & Shadow, Same options as today.
Mandiblaster +1 A and effects like offensive grenades.

Stealth: 3d6 for moving through difficult/dangerous terrain.
Shadow: +2 to all cover saves.

Warp Spider: Spinnerette, Warp Pack Exarch: Same options as today, Hit & Run, Web sight.
Spinnerette: S6 A1 12” Rending and causes opponent to make dangerous terrain test on next move. If assaulted, the unit must immediately check for dangerous terrain.
Warp Pack: Jump Move plus 2d6 move in assault phase (doubles still kills)
H &R Grants H & R
Web sight: Allows Spiders to deep strike with 1d6 scatter.

Swooping Hawk: Haywire Blaster, Wings Exarch: Options to be modified to work with troop choice. Skyleap, Death from Above

Haywire blaster to make them a vehicle harasser rather than a GEQ troop killer (at which they sucked.)

Wings: Reroll scatter on deep strike. 5++ from erratic flight pattern – shooting only.

Skyleap: Instead of standard movement, hawks can be picked up and deep strike anywhere on the board.
Death from above: Due to grenade launchers and swooping from the sky, on the charge SH get double strength on the charge.

Fire Dragons: Heat Lance, Melta Bomb Exarch: Tank Hunter, Crack Shot Same options as before.
Heat Lance: Melta 18” A1 S6 AP1 (Fire Pike: Melta + Lance 18” A1 S8 AP1)
(This was done to give dragons a tad more range in hopes of reducing their kamikaze role. Note between Tank Hunter and Lance they should actually be more lethal than today.)

Crack Shot: Unit ignores cover saves.
Tank Hunter: +1 S for penetrating vehicles.

Shining Spears: 3+, Laser Lance, PW, Bike, FNP Exarch: Same options as today, Hit & Run, Tip of the Spear

Laser Lance and PW – Granted PW to make them not a one hit wonder still should be awesome on the charge but not an instant kill if the unit doesn’t break on the charge.
Feel No Pain: Could go with Invulnerable save but I thought this would give them much needed resiliency to being fired on. Won’t help against krak missiles or meltas though.
Bike: All have Skilled Rider bonus so can reroll dangerous terrain tests.

Hit & Run: Gives H&R ability to squad.
Tip of the Spear: All Bikes get their attacks no matter what even if killed when they charge.

OOPS! Forgot the Dark Reaper

Reaper Launcher, S&P Exarch: Same options as today, Fast Shot & Crack Shot

Reaper Launcher: 36" Hvy 1 S7 AP3 - or - 36" Hvy 1 S4 AP4 (pinning) Small Blast
(This done to make Reapers more effective against vehicles while preserving the anti-personnel role)

Fast Shot: +1 ROF
Crack Shot: Ignore cover.

The Exarch grants this role to the squad, but only one per turn.

Comments in red

DAaddict wrote:My thoughts on aspect warriors: This is a compilation of discussions on all three versions of this forum as well as a few biases that I have.

All aspect warriors are supposed to be the epitome of the warrior way. Some variation on that theme but warrior specialists.

WS/BS 4 They are good but they should not be epic good therefore 4.
I 6 Yea! We are eldar and athletes to boot.
S/T 3 W 1 Booh! We are still eldar
Ld 9 We are strongest of the strong and bravest of the brave but we are not fools
either.
A:2 Like DE trueborn or hell brides, like any marine veteran we are good at punching. Albeit at strength 3, we don’t do much without some enhancements.
Exarchs are that much more impressive with +1 to WS, BS, Ld and A.

Dire Avenger: Catapult, Fleet Exarch: Bladestorm and Defend, Options as today.
(I like the idea of TL DA cats and then upgrading guardians to the same 18” A2 range.)

I think they should have pistol and ccw, if only to be able to counter chargea weak squad after bladestorming and putting defend to good use

Howling Banshee: Pistol, PW & Mask Exarch: Same optins as today, Acrobatic and War
Shout.
Mask gives them always strike first ability
Acrobatic: The HB are so nimble on their feet, they are not hindered by exiting a moving vehicle, therefore they can charge on the turn they disembark.
War Shout: Ld Test – this grants HB furious resolve giving them +1 S and reroll to hits on the charge. (More effective than current rendition and reduces dependency on doomseer)

I agree to this version of War shout, especially the Ld test rather then morale

Striking Scorpion: Pistol, Chainsword & Mandiblaster Exarch: Stealth & Shadow, Same options as today.
Mandiblaster +1 A and effects like offensive grenades.

Stealth: 3d6 for moving through difficult/dangerous terrain.
Shadow: +2 to all cover saves.

would prefer that they could still infiltrate, preferably in a ymargl genestealer fashion

Warp Spider: Spinnerette, Warp Pack Exarch: Same options as today, Hit & Run, Web sight.
Spinnerette: S6 A1 12” Rending and causes opponent to make dangerous terrain test on next move. If assaulted, the unit must immediately check for dangerous terrain.
Warp Pack: Jump Move plus 2d6 move in assault phase (doubles still kills)
H &R Grants H & R
Web sight: Allows Spiders to deep strike with 1d6 scatter.

spinnarette seems very overpowered, st 6, ap 1, rending, and dangerous terrain? I think the AP- would be best, rending would lessen its immpediment considerably

Swooping Hawk: Haywire Blaster, Wings Exarch: Options to be modified to work with troop choice. Skyleap, Death from Above

Haywire blaster to make them a vehicle harasser rather than a GEQ troop killer (at which they sucked.)

Wings: Reroll scatter on deep strike. 5++ from erratic flight pattern – shooting only.

Skyleap: Instead of standard movement, hawks can be picked up and deep strike anywhere on the board.
Death from above: Due to grenade launchers and swooping from the sky, on the charge SH get double strength on the charge.

Death from above seems like a poor excuse to make them an assault unit, I wouldn't use them this way, also this skyleap seems very overpowered

Fire Dragons: Heat Lance, Melta Bomb Exarch: Tank Hunter, Crack Shot Same options as before.
Heat Lance: Melta 18” A1 S6 AP1 (Fire Pike: Melta + Lance 18” A1 S8 AP1)
(This was done to give dragons a tad more range in hopes of reducing their kamikaze role. Note between Tank Hunter and Lance they should actually be more lethal than today.)

Crack Shot: Unit ignores cover saves.
Tank Hunter: +1 S for penetrating vehicles.

I humbly give my support for heat lance dragons, extra range and lance beats str 8 in my book, especially when the melta does so much of the work

Shining Spears: 3+, Laser Lance, PW, Bike, FNP Exarch: Same options as today, Hit & Run, Tip of the Spear

Laser Lance and PW – Granted PW to make them not a one hit wonder still should be awesome on the charge but not an instant kill if the unit doesn’t break on the charge.
Feel No Pain: Could go with Invulnerable save but I thought this would give them much needed resiliency to being fired on. Won’t help against krak missiles or meltas though.
Bike: All have Skilled Rider bonus so can reroll dangerous terrain tests.

Hit & Run: Gives H&R ability to squad.
Tip of the Spear: All Bikes get their attacks no matter what even if killed when they charge.

not sure if I understand Tip of the Spear, and I'd rather they'd just have a 12" assault range, FNP should let them survive to retreat but I think there should be a reason they're so resilent, specialized wraithbone shields perhaps?

OOPS! Forgot the Dark Reaper

Reaper Launcher, S&P Exarch: Same options as today, Fast Shot & Crack Shot

Reaper Launcher: 36" Hvy 1 S7 AP3 - or - 36" Hvy 1 S4 AP4 (pinning) Small Blast
(This done to make Reapers more effective against vehicles while preserving the anti-personnel role)

Fast Shot: +1 ROF
Crack Shot: Ignore cover.

The Exarch grants this role to the squad, but only one per turn.

the sheer number of small blasts could really slow down the game, I'd prefer a str 5 ap 3 pinning missle, much like their old ones, to preserve their anti MEQ role, of course the real treat is the exarch learning to share his powers with his squad, selfish exarch...

Having a weapon with blast for an entire squad wouldn't be good, no, especially since they roll separately.

---

Here's a small (read: large) thought: No Guardians.

Elites:
Scorpions
Dragons
Clowns
Wraith

Troops:
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Banshees (borrowing from Dawn of War 2)
<Jetbike Dire Avengers>ish

Fast:
Hawks
Hornets
Spears
Spiders

Heavy:
Prism / Spinner / Hunter
Lords
Walkers
Reapers

Transports:
Serpents
Falcons

All models with BS3, except the Serpent (which doesn't have a gunner) has their BS increased to 4.
Obsolete models: Guardians, Guardian platforms, Guardian support platforms, Vypers.
Guardians (with extreme platform density) can be re-used as a heavy slot.

Comments in Black

Oriallis wrote:Comments in red

I think they should have pistol and ccw, if only to be able to counter chargea weak squad after bladestorming and putting defend to good use
Remember that their base attacks is 2 so they have that improvement already - do you want them to go to 3 base attacks?

I agree to this version of War shout, especially the Ld test rather then morale
Agreed - they need some benefit and the current version is devastating but rarely impactful

would prefer that they could still infiltrate, preferably in a ymargl genestealer fashion
Forgot that under the Stealth option - they should have infiltrate or ymargl style infiltrate

spinnarette seems very overpowered, st 6, ap 1, rending, and dangerous terrain? I think the AP- would be best, rending would lessen its immpediment considerably
Reducing the ROF to 1 seems like a balance for adding the rending and dangerous terrain rules. I just think that this, along with the HWP spinnerettes should have that dangerous terrain rule of the
vehicle added to it.

Death from above seems like a poor excuse to make them an assault unit, I wouldn't use them this way, also this skyleap seems very overpowered
I agree it doesn't directly support the units base function of vehicle harassment but it also gives them a subsidary role. (Don't come near to a SH unit with an undermanned squad or you could be facing a lot of S6 CC attacks at a relatively high initiative.)

I humbly give my support for heat lance dragons, extra range and lance beats str 8 in my book, especially when the melta does so much of the work
Just to emphasize, a heat lance with tank hunter is going S7 AP1 with a lethal range of 9". That is going to make fire dragons a nasty average of 14 armor pen with a maximum of facing AV 12 due to lance rules. This improves performance versus a melta gun with S8 AP1 and a lethal range of 6" with an average of 15 armor pen facing an AV of 14.

not sure if I understand Tip of the Spear, and I'd rather they'd just have a 12" assault range, FNP should let them survive to retreat but I think there should be a reason they're so resilent, specialized wraithbone shields perhaps?
The purpose is to allow them the ability to attack units in terrain without giving them grenades to allow initiative based attacks. Still we are talking a unit of 5 dealing out 15 S6(or 8 in case of the Exarch)
attacks that will hit albeit if you charge them against 10 termies in terrain, you may devastate the termies but I will almost guarantee that your spears are going to be dead.

the sheer number of small blasts could really slow down the game, I'd prefer a str 5 ap 3 pinning missle, much like their old ones, to preserve their anti MEQ role, of course the real treat is the exarch learning to share his powers with his squad, selfish exarch...
I just figured that a maximum unit size of 5 with quick fire results in 10 templates, it is not that much slower than watching 3 long fangs unload frag missiles at a target. IMO, it is not a big slow down to the game if someone knows what they are doing with mass frags. So I figure after 1 or 2 games, an eldar playing reapers is going to be fairly organized.

Mahtamori wrote:Having a weapon with blast for an entire squad wouldn't be good, no, especially since they roll separately.

---

Here's a small (read: large) thought: No Guardians.

Elites:
Scorpions
Dragons
Clowns
Wraith

Troops:
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Banshees (borrowing from Dawn of War 2)
<Jetbike Dire Avengers>ish

Fast:
Hawks
Hornets
Spears
Spiders

Heavy:
Prism / Spinner / Hunter
Lords
Walkers
Reapers

Transports:
Serpents
Falcons

All models with BS3, except the Serpent (which doesn't have a gunner) has their BS increased to 4.
Obsolete models: Guardians, Guardian platforms, Guardian support platforms, Vypers.
Guardians (with extreme platform density) can be re-used as a heavy slot.

I disagree, while Guardians have their problems I don't think they should become obsolete. Where does that leave Ulthwe' and other aspect light craftworlds? What they need is something that greatly differentiates them from Dire Avengers. I believe the answer would be to emphasize the Heavy weapon aspect, being able to hold home objectives well. In essense a more defensive troop to contrast the highly offensive nature of most Eldar forces. Also Guardian Jetbikes and Vypers shouldn't have to suffer for Guardian's poor performance.

As far as the mass small blast templates... I will submit that currently SW players swear by playing 3 long fang squads with ML. Sure they can fire krak but quite often the right call is to drop frag missiles. This results in 15 dice rolls for scatter. I have seen people do this quite quickly and efficiently.
1. Declare the target and that you are firing frags.
2. Roll 2d6 + scatter dice. About 50% will be on target and most situations, if it scatters more than 2" you know it will be a miss. So roll of of 6 or less and scatter or any roll and on target roll and you cause casualties. Total them up and roll. I have seen long fangs do this in about a minute, I am guessing that - at worst - in 2 minutes, an eldar can figure out what is happening with 5 DR pretty quick.

The other thing is you have the option of quick firing S7 AP3 shots. I am betting that except for hoards and terminators (2+ save) units, the DR player is going to take his 10 S7 AP3 direct fire shots instead of taking the chance firing 10 S4 blast templates that then have to get through 3+ armor saves.

Oriallis: Oh, Vypers fall on their own poor performance*, but to me the problem with Guardians goes deeper than that. In a standard, non-apocalypse, force Eldar wouldn't use Guardians - unless they are Ulthwé Black Guardians, which aren't normal Guardians by any means - so why are they three of five troop choices?
One must also remember that Eldar craftworlds are vastly different to each other, even more so than Space Marine chapters. The vanilla codex has a distinct Ulthwé feel to it. You wouldn't ever find Biel-Tan organized in such a way, and it's a chore to make a proper Saim-Hann army (whom are hardly "craftworld" Eldar at all when it comes to army organization, as far as I can understand).
In fluff I can only think of one craftworld that'd not have a large amount of shrines, and that craftworld would still not field Guardians (they'd stick their Guardians in Falcons or Phantoms). Actually there's one more craftworld with a vast amount of active Guardians, but that craftworld is currently trying to reach a different galaxy and is not close enough for anything to attack it.
* The real reason I suggested obsoleting Vypers was because they perform so poorly and that the Hornet strictly conceptually is more Craftworld Eldar. The Vyper is too lightly armoured to be Craftworld and it is too lightly armed to be Eldar of any type.

DAaddict: Having them use blast templates has one additional merit in that it is easier to alter how they shoot. You can conceivably make an Exarch ability which allows the squad to fire Barrage - or going back to Mk1 thread have Swooping Hawks able to direct their fire (i.e. indirect fire in Swooping Hawks' field of view).
As you say, a large portion of the shots will be direct hits (55.6% of the shots will scatter 1" or more).
Here's a thought: The Exarch's weapon option has a weapon which allows Exarch to fire Barrage - why not let the squad be able to somehow tag along with this?

Still problems of the fact that one unit of Dark Reapers can fire more shots with fast shot then 9 Long fangs can. I don't know maybe I just don't like blasts as a weapon for eintire units.

Wouldn't that be a problem with Fast Shot (which would cost what? 50? 70?) rather than with the blast weapons?

Well if you operate that there is one and only one ability that a DR exarch can pass along to his unit, then you have
5 indirect blast templates (barrage ability) or 10 direct blasts (quick shot ability) or 10 AP rounds using quick shot.
Perhaps get rid of the crack shot ability and replace it with the barrage capability.

5 blast templates is -ahem- exactly what a long fang squad can do.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Oriallis: Oh, Vypers fall on their own poor performance*, but to me the problem with Guardians goes deeper than that. In a standard, non-apocalypse, force Eldar wouldn't use Guardians - unless they are Ulthwé Black Guardians, which aren't normal Guardians by any means - so why are they three of five troop choices?
One must also remember that Eldar craftworlds are vastly different to each other, even more so than Space Marine chapters. The vanilla codex has a distinct Ulthwé feel to it. You wouldn't ever find Biel-Tan organized in such a way, and it's a chore to make a proper Saim-Hann army (whom are hardly "craftworld" Eldar at all when it comes to army organization, as far as I can understand).
In fluff I can only think of one craftworld that'd not have a large amount of shrines, and that craftworld would still not field Guardians (they'd stick their Guardians in Falcons or Phantoms). Actually there's one more craftworld with a vast amount of active Guardians, but that craftworld is currently trying to reach a different galaxy and is not close enough for anything to attack it.
* The real reason I suggested obsoleting Vypers was because they perform so poorly and that the Hornet strictly conceptually is more Craftworld Eldar. The Vyper is too lightly armoured to be Craftworld and it is too lightly armed to be Eldar of any type.

DAaddict: Having them use blast templates has one additional merit in that it is easier to alter how they shoot. You can conceivably make an Exarch ability which allows the squad to fire Barrage - or going back to Mk1 thread have Swooping Hawks able to direct their fire (i.e. indirect fire in Swooping Hawks' field of view).
As you say, a large portion of the shots will be direct hits (55.6% of the shots will scatter 1" or more).
Here's a thought: The Exarch's weapon option has a weapon which allows Exarch to fire Barrage - why not let the squad be able to somehow tag along with this?

My problem with dropping vypers is I use them in my saim-hann army. Bikes and vypers. Sure vypers suck compared to war walkers but they do offer some small advantages - they can move 12". They can't be tied down in close combat. I don't mind paying a premium for them (10pts per) and giving up 1 S6 shot vs war walkers.

I guess what I would like to see would be to make them an attack bike with 2 wounds. Sure it means they can be tied up in close combat again but if you give them the jet bike move and bikes movement rather than the vehicle movement, that means 12" movement unload 7 S6 shots and then withdraw 6". Convert a holofield into an invulnerable save for them and they will be quite survivable AND - more importantly - a useful addition to the army.

Yeah Vypers suck as a vehicle but if they were a heavy jetbike they might be able to do better.

I'm still not quite happy with just ditching Guardians altogether, they still just feel right for some reason. But I'm sure lots of people would disagree with me.

I think it would make sense to do away with them. Traditionally, Guardians are only called upon in times of great need, which I don't really think is represented outside of Apocolypse. Otherwise they rely on their Aspect Warriors and war machines to do the fighting.

As for the Black Guardians, why not just have them as a unit unlocked by taking the Ulthwe special character?

This requires a lot of thought.
1) We are killing a model range. *Generally something that a modelling company is loathe to do.*

2) They are somewhat dated but can still be useful.

3) They are the basis for all the BS 3 eldar stuff out there. Without them, my arguement would be all eldar stuff remaining should go to BS4.

4) Again, the basis of EJB. Unless you are proposing to kill them also - in which case I vote absolutely no being a Saim-Hann player.

However, I can accept removal of guardians through making them non-FOC troop choices and or non-FOC heavy choices. In other words say that you can add a 5-man guardian squad with a platform and they still count as troop choices as far as controlling objectives but they never count in the FOC. The other rule would be limiting the number of guardian "squads" that you can field to 1 per other slot used. So say you have an army of 3 fire dragons and 4 dire avengers with 3 fire prisms - that means you cannot field more than 10 guardian squads.

You want larger squads? Make that as a qualification of having a warlock leader that can allow up to 4 "squads" to band together. Perhaps - like wolf guard - make a person pull them from a warlock council.
Want heavy support? Same principle but once a heavy platform, you give up the ability to control an objective.

Then make the Ulthwe SC unlock the ability of guardians filling out FOC charts plus allow them to form squads of 5 to 20.

The "add-on" nature of small guardians gives the eldar the advantage of extra troop choices but at the cost of also giving you cheap extra kill points.

I have a few ideas for the Eldar that I've been kicking around for awhile. Hopefully no one's mentioned these as I haven't read the whole thread.

Better Fleet:
A general fix to a number of problems would be allowing any Eldar model or unit with Fleet to shoot and run in the same turn. You can leave the shuriken catapult and fusion gun at 12" range, but now Guardians and Fire Dragons would be able to kite more effectively - move into shooting range, shoot, then run back out of shooting range. This also increases the hitting power of units like Banshees slightly, as they can shoot, run, and charge all in one turn. Unique, appropriate, and hopefully effective.

Guardian upgrade characters:
Instead of being useless meat shields, turn Guardians into defensive powerhouses, but through interesting abilities or upgrade characters rather than stat increases. When you get down to it, the Guardians' primary role is defending the Craftworld in time of great need, so they should be uniquely equipped to defend ground (which ends up making them more effective for camping objectives in game). Specifically I was thinking of allowing Guardians to take characters besides just warlocks. Say for every 5 guardians they can take 1 upgrade character or support platform, picking from warlocks (add more of a leadership/close combat defense emphasis than now), Bonesingers (something like reinforcing terrain for better cover saves, akin to techmarines?), Healers (something more creative than FnP hopefully), etc. People could come up with better options, or take a different approach entirely, but Guardians really need to be useful for holding ground without just buffing their statlines.

Edit:
I also like DAaddict's idea about limiting Guardians. Eldar in general shouldn't be spamming guardians, even on jetbikes, unless you specifically unlock an Ulthwe or Siam Hann build by whatever means. So one guardian or jetbike unit per Aspect unit should do the trick. While we're at it, make Storm Guardians 0-1 without some other unlock (Ulthwe again or whatever). Personally I don't see generic Eldar forces sending their citizen-soldiers charging poorly armed and armored into hand to hand combat on a regular basis.

I think either of the above suggestions for guardians would be good, anything but just outright ditching them, it just doesn't feel right in my mind.

What I think is best is to keep the guardian jetbikes the same, make guardian defenders troops but not taking up a slot (so you must take two other troop squads) and get them more weapon platforms - one small for each five gaurdians, the tenth and twentieth can instead be a larger (d-cannon style). Storms I never use so i don't know how they should be, but I don't find them very fluffy except in ulthwé and similar CW:s.

But I agree they should remain.

To refine my post a little, here's how I would envision the Guardians playing out using the upgrade character idea. Note that basic guardians should be reduced in cost by a point or two, since they really do suck and I don't suggest changing them per se.

So you have a squad of 15 guardians. This means you get three upgrades. You could max out on weapon platforms (for a total of 3) which gives the squad some actual bite, but leaves it ready to be swept away by a slight breeze. You also have the option of taking upgrade characters in place of any or all of your weapon platforms, reducing your ability to deal damage, but increasing the durability of the unit. No more than one each of any type - Warlock, Healer, or Bonesinger - at least that's all I've thought of so far.

The Warlock's options would be changed up a bit to make them more useful for defense. Re-rolling failed Ld can stay the same. Conceal should cause a night sight test when being shot at, as the 5+ cover save kind of overlaps with the Bonesinger. The flame template option is fine, but I'd like to be able to fire it in the turn an opponent charges the unit. Place the template after assault moves are finished, touching the Warlock, and ignore hits on friendly models. Sort of a close-in defense weapon.

The Bonesinger (or a different name, since I guess I'm not talking about shaping wraithbone) would essentially be a terrain manipulator. A few options I could think of would be path clearing, where maybe dangerous terrain is only difficult, making enemy assaults test for difficult terrain (or make difficult terrain dangerous for them), or reinforcing cover, where as long as the unit stays still, they receive +1 cover save, or a 6+ in the open.

The Healer (definitely needs a good name) could have options like ensuring the safety of spirit stones or somesuch, thereby reducing any negative leadership modifiers after losing close combat. They could also give FnP, although I would prefer a We'll Be Back type rule, were as long as the unit still has some guardians, and the Healer isn't in base to base, dead guardians come back on a 6+ at the end of the turn.


Those are my thoughts, I know it's a bit out of left field, but I'd be much more likely to use Guardians if they could actually be geared to a role, even if it's a very generic one (stand here and don't die).

I like the idea of Guardian upgrade characters, although I'd say more that they would be guardians (no pun intended) for the characters they are escorting. However, I would personally love to see Warlocks buffed up to real, destructive, psychers and dropped into a 3-for-1 Elite slot so you could dump them in whatever squad you wished. Sort of like a Rune Priest on Apothecary level that hurts people.

DAaddict wrote:My problem with dropping vypers is I use them in my saim-hann army. Bikes and vypers. Sure vypers suck compared to war walkers but they do offer some small advantages - they can move 12". They can't be tied down in close combat. I don't mind paying a premium for them (10pts per) and giving up 1 S6 shot vs war walkers.

I guess what I would like to see would be to make them an attack bike with 2 wounds. Sure it means they can be tied up in close combat again but if you give them the jet bike move and bikes movement rather than the vehicle movement, that means 12" movement unload 7 S6 shots and then withdraw 6". Convert a holofield into an invulnerable save for them and they will be quite survivable AND - more importantly - a useful addition to the army.

I stealthily added Hornets as their replacement, but yes - there's nothing wrong with Vypers as a model or concept as such, only their performance. The Hornet easily replaces a Vyper (realistically), but a Vyper sort of depicts the level of protection one could expect Eldar to house Eldar non-warriors into when riding into battle. The main point with having them Jetbikes is (1) fire-and-move and (2) increased fire power, able to fire both turret and under-slung regardless of armament (since they are two on the bike). As Jetbikes they are both more and less vulnerable in that they now have a saving throw, different cover rules, and can be tied down (or protected by) melee.

Warlocks in that form could be interesting, if they had a significant buff (They would difinately need a larger selection of options, including wargear and Psychic powers) It would also make Psychic support much more common for Eldar (for a race that are all latent psykers they always seemed rather sparse to me) Maybe however instead of putting them as an elite option which would make for even more competition they should stick as HQ taken with Farseers, only instead of a Seer Council they can be spread around the army as support as you suggested.

As far as Guardians are concerned I like the idea of small non FOC troops providing heavy weapon support and camping objectives. My only issue is how to make Ulthwe's Black Guardians more competent. Maybe borrowing from some examples of fluff (I'm not sure what novel this is from) they could be equipped with Aspect Warrior gear instead of Weapon Platforms (This would make them able to immitate alot of the roles of Aspect Warriors, almost like poorman's aspect Warriors).

Possible thought, regular Guardians act in the weapon platform role and do not take up the FOC slots, while these more competent Guardians (Who I'd imagine were formerly Aspect Warriors, unlike the regular Guardians) can be taken as troop choices.

Wow that was a longer post than I thought it was going to be, but whatever. Thoughts?

A possible way to make guardians both FOC free and only usable for defense.

Make them only scoring for your side of the table. They don't count as troops once they cross the halfway point as pertains to capturing objectives.

The Ulthwe black guardians could be unique in that they would be able to capture objectives on the other side of the table and perhaps have a +1 to BS when defender guardians or +1 WS if they are storm guardians.

That sounds quite interesting, both what Oriallis and seaphoenix said. The problem with black guardians is what would alow you to take them. Eldrad? A choice of various army themes i.e. craftworlds? Autarch stratagem?

I think Warlocks in Elites is a terrible idea, unless a Farseer makes them Troops or HQ. Space Wolves spam Long Fangs, so their Elites section is empty. Eldar spam Fire Dragons, so theirs is not.

Eldar spam Fire Dragons because Bright Lances cost about twice as much as they should and Eldar in general do not have any S10 weapons worth mention. During 3rd edition, Fire Dragons were the same at +1 point cost, but they weren't ever taken because tank spam wasn't an issue and the few Bright Lances you took could deal with the tank threats you faced.
Now that you can get TANKS as dedicated transports, you need a significantly higher amount of anti-tank fire power, but Eldar are stuck with the 3rd edition design concept where Land Raiders weren't cheap like they, relatively, are now.

Guardians (Heavy).
5-10. Lead by a Black Guardian (may not use platforms).
Lasblasters and tangle grenades (defensive grenades, enemies always count as assaulting through cover).Must take between 1 and 5 heavy weapons platforms. May take 1 support weapons platform (artillery rules, require 2 Guardians to fire, may move and fire). Max 1 platform per 2 Guardians.

Black Guardians (Troop). (Guardian profile +1BS/WS/LD)
5-10. Lead by Black Guardian Veteran (Aspect Profile +1A).
Plasma Grenades. May be armed with CCW+Pistol or Las Blaster. May be armed with Fusion Gun, Flamer, Shuriken Cannon or Power Weapon (every third, plus Veteran, may upgrade).
May take a limited selection of... weird stuff (deployables or one-shots, for the most part, like plasma shields or d-charges)

Warlock (Elite) (Warlock profile +1W, +2LD) (Roughly 70 points)
1-3. Independent characters.

Psychic powers divided into Fate (passive), Bane (Warlock) and Scrying (Farseer). Fate are minor powers which grants benefits to the psycher and the unit he's with such as Stealth or Stubborn. Bane holds offensive witch-powers such as Mind War (current) or Destructor (+1S & AP). Scrying holds the major psychic powers that aren't directly damaging.
Farseers takes 1 Fate and 2 Scrying, may cast up to two with upgrade. Warlocks take 1 Fate and 1 Bane. Costs for powers are embedded in original cost.
Fortune is simply too powerful, and I suggest it become a Fate power that states that a weapon must exceed the unit's armour in order to penetrate it (rather than match it).

Fluff can easily be adapted through very, very, minor changes so that craftworlds all have a standing army of Guardians.

Here's a new thought: allow the vehicles and jetbike's under-slung upgrade to feature more than just Shuriken Cannons. I'm thinking specifically about Heat Lance or similar middle-powered weapons, more geared towards MEQ or vehicle killing.

Another idea is to offer Guardian Storm (or their equivalent) the option to take 2-handed power weapons at a tiny cost. This would make them significantly larger threat to MEQ while being far removed from stepping on Banshee toes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a few... weird... devices.

D-Charge (one-shot item)
A D-Charge is a powerful, directional, distortion explosive which is used to clear obstacles made of materials which lesser races would consider indestructible.
In melee this is treated as a grenade. The item itself is only consumed if successfully attached to an object or vehicle. Instead of rolling for penetration, a roll of 2+ indicates that the target suffers a penetrating hit with a +1 damage modifier.

Plasma Shield (one-shot item)
Plasma Shields are highly advanced field projectors commonly deployed in passages or in front of Eldar fortifications on the field, lending strategic strongpoints to a race who seldom engage in trench-warfare.
Plasma Shields are deployed in the movement phase. They form a wall 3" wide and 3" high. The Plasma Shield does not block line of sight nor confer cover.
Weapons shooting through the shield with a strength higher than 4 is treated as having a strength of 4. Barrage weapons are not hindered in this way. Only units where 50% or more of the unit is partially or fully behind the shield and in line of sight are protected by it, vehicles and monstrous creatures must additionally have at least 50% of their hull covered by the shield.

Simulacrum Projector. (One-shot)
Using advanced holographic projection technology, the Eldar bolster their numbers from empty air, confusing their enemies' aim.
Used during the movement phase, and only if the unit is not currently engaged in melee. Until the end of the opponent's shooting phase, any attacks which successfully hit a model in the Eldar unit instead strikes a simulacrum on a roll of 4+. Does not work against template or blast weapons.

Fading Field. (One-shot)
A Fading Field is a testament to Eldar mastery over the light. By bending any light which strikes a small sphere of space so that it effectively passes over the sphere with only the smallest fraction of alteration, the Fading Field provides near perfect invisibility for a short period of time.
The Fading Field may be deployed during the movement phase. When deployed, replace the unit with a marker in squad coherency with as many models in the unit as possible. The marker now represents the unit until the end of the unit's next movement phase. The marker moves like a unit of the same type as the unit which faded. Enemies may not target the marker, but may assault it as if it were an enemy model.
When the effect ends, place the first model of the unit where the marker is and as many models as possible in coherency with this model. The effect will end if the unit wishes to use their weapons, or assault, if a blast marker (or other template-like weapon) strays to touch the marker or if an enemy model gets within 2" of the marker.
The Fading Field may make the unit invisible, but it does not block sound or smell.

My central point wasn't the Fire Dragons, it was that Elites is an important and already-crowded FOC area for the Eldar. I don't want to have to skip out on aspect warriors to put warlocks with my guardians.

I agree, if the warlocks should be similar to wolf guard they should be taken from the Farseers council (thus a HQ, kind of). We dont need more elites.

I like the re-dispersal idea that was posted earlier with the Warlocks. Keep them as being attached to the farseer, for FOC or their own HQ slot. Then allow them to be split from that unit and placed with a guardian squad. This doesn't take up the Elite slot, but still allows you to attach them to another squad.

Oriallis wrote:Maybe borrowing from some examples of fluff (I'm not sure what novel this is from) they could be equipped with Aspect Warrior gear instead of Weapon Platforms (This would make them able to immitate alot of the roles of Aspect Warriors, almost like poorman's aspect Warriors).

That was from Goto's Dawn of War books, I think it was the second one.

Mahtamori wrote:
Here's a few... weird... devices.

D-Charge (one-shot item)
A D-Charge is a powerful, directional, distortion explosive which is used to clear obstacles made of materials which lesser races would consider indestructible.
In melee this is treated as a grenade. The item itself is only consumed if successfully attached to an object or vehicle. Instead of rolling for penetration, a roll of 2+ indicates that the target suffers a penetrating hit with a +1 damage modifier.

Plasma Shield (one-shot item)
Plasma Shields are highly advanced field projectors commonly deployed in passages or in front of Eldar fortifications on the field, lending strategic strongpoints to a race who seldom engage in trench-warfare.
Plasma Shields are deployed in the movement phase. They form a wall 3" wide and 3" high. The Plasma Shield does not block line of sight nor confer cover.
Weapons shooting through the shield with a strength higher than 4 is treated as having a strength of 4. Barrage weapons are not hindered in this way. Only units where 50% or more of the unit is partially or fully behind the shield and in line of sight are protected by it, vehicles and monstrous creatures must additionally have at least 50% of their hull covered by the shield.

Simulacrum Projector. (One-shot)
Using advanced holographic projection technology, the Eldar bolster their numbers from empty air, confusing their enemies' aim.
Used during the movement phase, and only if the unit is not currently engaged in melee. Until the end of the opponent's shooting phase, any attacks which successfully hit a model in the Eldar unit instead strikes a simulacrum on a roll of 4+. Does not work against template or blast weapons.

Fading Field. (One-shot)
A Fading Field is a testament to Eldar mastery over the light. By bending any light which strikes a small sphere of space so that it effectively passes over the sphere with only the smallest fraction of alteration, the Fading Field provides near perfect invisibility for a short period of time.
The Fading Field may be deployed during the movement phase. When deployed, replace the unit with a marker in squad coherency with as many models in the unit as possible. The marker now represents the unit until the end of the unit's next movement phase. The marker moves like a unit of the same type as the unit which faded. Enemies may not target the marker, but may assault it as if it were an enemy model.
When the effect ends, place the first model of the unit where the marker is and as many models as possible in coherency with this model. The effect will end if the unit wishes to use their weapons, or assault, if a blast marker (or other template-like weapon) strays to touch the marker or if an enemy model gets within 2" of the marker.
The Fading Field may make the unit invisible, but it does not block sound or smell.

I absolutely love these! They look really interesting and characterful and display the Eldar's supposed technological superiority, which we really don't see too much of on the table.

Saintspirit wrote:I agree, if the warlocks should be similar to wolf guard they should be taken from the Farseers council (thus a HQ, kind of). We dont need more elites.

Well, let's review the FOCs.

Troop. 5 units.
1 melee, 3 short ranged anti-GEQ, 1 sniper.
4 infantry, 1 jetbike.
Forgeworld (1 unit): 1 long ranged.
Forgeworld: 1 light vehicle.
Comments: Rangers have poor track record for many people, but this is in line with most snipers in this edition. Guardian Storm typically aren't used as melee units, but most often reported to be used for their squad flamer upgrades.

Elite. 5 units.
2 melee, 1 melee (power weapon), 2 short ranged anti-TEQ / anti-vehicle.
4 infantry, 1 heavy infantry.
Comments: The entire codex's melee performance is poor due to delivery problems and poor cost efficiency.

Fast Attack. 4 units.
1 melee (power weapon), 1 short ranged anti-GEQ, 1 medium ranged anti-GEQ, 1 long ranged.
2 jump infantry, 1 jetbike, 1 light vehicle.
Forgeworld (1 unit): 1 long ranged.
Forgeworld: 1 medium vehicle.

Heavy. 7 units.
1 melee (power weapon), 5 long ranged, 1 long ranged anti-MEQ, 1 long ranged anti-GEQ.
1 infantry, 3 medium vehicles, 1 light vehicle, 1 monstrous creature, 1 artillery.
Forgeworld (2 units): 1 long ranged anti-vehicle, 1 medium ranged anti-everything.
Forgeworld: 1 jet infantry, 1 tank.

Additionallt we have these lists.
Commonly or more frequently used: Dire Avengers (Troop), Guardian Jetbikes (Troop), Fire Dragons (Elite), Wraithlord (Heavy), War Walker (Heavy), Fire Prism (Heavy)

It is interesting to note that Aspect Warriors, with the exception of Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons, all have poor cost efficiency and suffer serious mobility issues. Additionally, it is interesting to note that Forgeworld's models are looking extremely likely to take over both the Troop and the Fast Attack sections should they become Codex, simply due to better performance and up to date cost efficiency (and I should add that Forgeworld most often err on the side of caution when it comes to making overly powerful units)

What's my point
The Elite section isn't exactly crowded. It's sitting at a comfortable amount of troops, however, it contains our single most important unit. One could kill off half the codex's units and make their models collector's edition items for painting purposes, and most non-Eldar would be none the wiser.

There's a lot of room for tidying up in the FOC. I don't think that, for instance, the different Falcon-class hulls need so many slots (nor do I really think the Falcon needs the transport capacity, honestly) for instance. War Walker, as discussed earlier, is ill comfortable in the Heavy section. There's also room for another Aspect in the Troop section, and I'm looking at the melee aspects from Elite section.

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Here's a different, and I fear repeat from an older thread, view on how Guardians could be handled:

Guardian Storm. Removed.

Guardian Defender. Removed.

Guardian. Introduced. Base cost 40 points (Veteran) or 65 points (Warlock)
5-10. One model is upgraded to Veteran or Warlock (as appropriate to discussion we're having).
Plasma grenades and Catapults. Any number may exchange Capatult for CCW+Pistol. Squad leader carries a Plasma Shield*.
For every 5 models in squad, one model may be given a Power Weapon, Flamer, or Fusion Gun for +6 points or a heavy weapons platform at the appropriate cost of the weapon.
Squad may be given up to 3 D-Charges at +5 points per charge.
(Although I would like to point out that I consider Lasblasters to be more appropriate for Guardians.)
* This is part of the justification for the high squad cost.

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I do see how having Warlocks be decent psychers and 1-3 in a single slot might be siphoned from the HQ by replacing the Seer council.

Thus: Ulthwé special character "Seer Council"!