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Scorpions.
Special Rules: Aspect Warriors, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Fleet.
Exarch abilities: Defend & Stalkers
?

As someone noted, the Scorpion equivalent in Dark Eldar codex has 3+ armour save and still is Fleet. Maybe Scorpions shouldn't have the uber-fleet that the 4+ or worse Eldar have. With MTC and fleet, I don't think they need Master of Stealth (or Stealth²)
Defend would also niche them towards road-bumps, and a fully upgraded infiltrating road-bump Scorpion squad...

Wooly wrote:That would be my point too. As with Shining Spears.
S3 in itself is too heavily doom reliant to be any good.

And with 2 attacks (4 on the charge) @ S3, doom has a massive effect. 40 power weapon attacks with re-rolls to wound is alot less ballanced than 30 @ S4 for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Scorpions.
Special Rules: Aspect Warriors, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Fleet.
Exarch abilities: Defend & Stalkers
?

As someone noted, the Scorpion equivalent in Dark Eldar codex has 3+ armour save and still is Fleet. Maybe Scorpions shouldn't have the uber-fleet that the 4+ or worse Eldar have. With MTC and fleet, I don't think they need Master of Stealth (or Stealth²)
Defend would also niche them towards road-bumps, and a fully upgraded infiltrating road-bump Scorpion squad...

I think outflank would be more valuable than Infiltrate. Stalkers would require you to start the game in reserve, so infiltrate would be useless most of the time. Defend might be good. They'd become an epic tar pit.

Infiltrate grants Outflank to both the unit and any dedicated transport they are given.

Mahtamori wrote:With 2 basic attacks, you get the following situation on a charge:

Banshees.
MEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit, of which one wound, of which one kills.
GEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2.67 hit, of which 1,33 wound, of which 1,33 kills.

Scorpions.
MEQ: 5 attacks, of which 2,5 hit, of which 1,67 wound, of which 0,56 kills.
GEQ: 5 attacks, of which 3,33 hit, of which 2,22 wound, of which 1,48 kills

Harlequins.
MEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit and 0,67 rends, of which 0,67 wounds, for a total of 0,89 kills.
GEQ: 4 attacks, of which 2 hit and 0,67 rends, of which 1 wounds, for a total of 1,33 kills.

In other words, while Banshees would be twice as good at killing MEQ as Scorpions and Harlequins being 50% better than Scorpions, the difference in killing potential against GEQ is negligible.
Thus, the balance between the three is eschewed. Banshees would be the supreme aspect for melee, with Scorpions niching in at infiltration. Harlequins wouldn't be taken at all.
Adding FC to Banshees in this situation would mean that the specialization of Scorpions being anti-GEQ have to be completely abandoned, and the question needs to be asked "is a melee infiltrator sufficient?"

The other thing to remember about harlies would be survivability. Hard to shoot at and 5++ invulnerable. If we are inclined to change harlies the easy things to do would be to change the kiss to being an automatic and no cost (vs a power weapon) and up the save to 4++ I mean the DE wyches have a 4++ in HTH and cost a fraction of what a harlie costs.

So the choice could be:

Scorpion: Anti-GEQ infiltration
HBs: Anti-MEQ and vehicle assault
Harlequins: Survivable but less anti-MEQ than HBs.

As far as a Biel-Tan leader perhaps make the Biel-Tan leader be the taking of a phoenix lord:

Change to FOC:

Elite: Guardian, Vyper, Harlequin, wraithguard

Troop: DA, Scorpion, Howling Banshee

Fast: Shining spear, warp spider, swooping hawk

Heavy: Falcon, fire dragon, dark reaper, prism, spinner, wraithlord, platform

Asurmen: Built in standard +1 attacks to all within 12". Stubborn

All others grant: Stubborn to their aspect only. Perhaps make them scoring (counts as troops)

Here's my thing with shining spears - they are fine in the first round of assault. They'll probably hit first, they hit absurdly hard, exactly as they should.

Here's the issue: After that, they fail. If they destroy their target, they are dead-dead. A unit of 5 space marines out of cover, most likely very close to the enemy. If they do not destroy their enemy, they either hit-and-run and hope for a good result, or stay in combat. Against the sort of targets they attack, if they stay in a 2nd round of combat, they are hitting MCs/terminators/etc @ S3, with few attacks, with no power weapons. They are going to lose, and suffer combat resolution.

Toning down their attacks to S5 power weapons (S3 +2S, or, executioners) gives them the ability to threaten in the 2nd round of combat as well. If you give them FC, they still get up to S6. If you give the Exarch's weapon +3 S, he still gets to S7.

Basically, one-shots don't work on the tabletop.

Or if that they are S6 only during the first battle turn, but are always power weapons?

Ugh, borrowing too heavily from Dark Eldar is unimaginative, but what if Shining Spears were able to fire their lances on any one unit they turbo-boosted over? It's nowhere near as potent as even Bladevanes (which averages at 2 S4 hits, where Shining Spears would average at 2/3 S6 Ap2 hits, and Shining Spears do not have the same speed, although higher save).
Shining Spears in melee could then be made more interesting with other toys.

That would still require them to end or start their turn within 12" of an enemy unit. The only way they are viable in their incarnation in the fandex is they have a 24" charge range.

They need to be better in the 2nd round of assault. They are assault units, and as they currently are, getting them into assault ends in their death no matter what the result. If you are tactically savvy enough to get them into assault at full strength, you should be rewarded.

Wooly wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Iyanna Arienal
Really needs to be able to turn Wraithguard and Wraithlords into troops choices in addition to their normal (Heavy/Elite) slots. Having WLs be heavy is such bunk IMO.

Oh, I can't wait 'till I have scoring Wraithlords. No, seriously, don't you think it's a little OP to have that option? I mean sure, you might make it elite or something, but I don't like the idea of a T8 shooting platform that can also hold objectives.

Well here what i was thinking.

1. You couldn't pull that off unless you're using the corresponding HQ. So there's a points cost involved that a player may not necessarily be willing to play unless he's representing a certain FOC theme or a certain band of fluff. Either one would have cool with me.
2. Going back to the Iyanden FOC from Craftworld Eldar Wraithlords already have a history of being in the Troops choice. We could do something like if said HQ was chosen then up to two (or whatever quantity) units of either Wraithguard or Wraithlord may be chosen as troops. To keep things from getting out of hand, because I see the point you're trying to get across with eldar going all Nidzilla with WLs.
3. You could even say that as a prerequisite for every scoring WL (troops choice) there had to be a selection of Scoring WG (10 WG with Spiritseer) on the field as well. I personally don't like this as much as 2. but maybe this could be an option if we didn't want the corresponding HQ.
4. People hype that 1 WL isn't worth taking, but 3 certainly are. I personally don't want to have 3 WL take up all of my heavy slots. I would be okay with a 0-1 Heavy choice consisting of 1-3 WL that could be placed independantly.
5. I know that I'm focusing more on WL than WG. Personally I don't see the problem moving them out of Elites into Troops entirely. WG are points intensive and would have to contest with some very solid units so I don't thing anyone but a Wraith player would make that swing en masse. This move would lessen the congestion in the Elites slots and not necessarily overburden the Troops slots.

My problem is that the eldar are too cool. Their heavy and elites choices are so impacted. SMs get around this by making their dreads elites, but in the SM FOC the Dread is only ever going up against Termies or Vets (but not both). So SMs effectively get up to 6 Heavy choices. Eldar elites have a variety of coolness, so you don't really want the WL in there, and in no way shape or form are they FA. And to boot we've got historical fluff and rules that we can draw upon and update to make our codex just as scary as the ones that have been coming out.

I personally like to play a variety of stuff every game and the FOC doesn't let me do that right now. I get around it by trying different units in every game. But I'd like to play a Haran army without it being Apocolypse scale.

I'm going to lunch. I'll chime in on some other stuff later today.

-MightyG

Mahtamori wrote:The browser ate my edit, so I'll keep it a bit shorter and to the point (yeah right...).

MightyGodzilla wrote:Defender Guardians
First the minimum troop size is all screwy. I don’t think that there’s a ten man squad in the game (Troops not Heavies) the runs with 2 heavy weapons. Also the idea of transporting 10 Guardians, 1 Warlock, and 2 HWPs in a Wave Serpent is too ridiculous. If you start the minimum squad size at 10 and give upgradability to 15 or 20 still give the players the ability to go MECH at a cost of not having 2 HWPs or a Support Platform or the ability to slog it out fleet style with a HWP or an SP.

20 man squads is a nail in the "dying race" fluff eye. By limiting the squad size to 10, it is still believable and makes for a more unique feel to the army where even the cheaper units must be given a purpose and can't be massed for victory.
While you are correct in that Guardians would then be the first unit to feature 2 heavy weapons in a single Troop choice in a 5th edition codex (if we ignore IF Heavy Weapons Squad which can feature 3 heavy weapons for significantly lower point cost, but at a lack of plastic wrap), this does not mean that it's a bad idea.
As a middle path, the Defenders could combine with Storm Guardians: "
* Any Guardian may replace their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon at no additional cost.
* For every five Guardians in the unit, one Guardian may replace his Shuriken Catapult with one of the following for 6 points:
- Flamer
- Fusion Gun
- <Range 24" S4 Ap3 Assault 1>
* A squad of ten Guardians may be given a Shuriken Cannon platform at no additional cost, which may be upgraded"

However, this is completely dogging the Space Marine codices, which may be a bad thing, since it also assumes that there's a Devastator squad in the codex somewhere - which an Eldar codex won't have. Devastators can choose their weapons, while Eldar aspect warriors may not.

In either case, I personally consider 9 extra Guardians clustered around an artillery piece ridiculous, having 19 extra clustered around the same piece would take the price in excess.

Gorechild wrote:Guardians: We were keeping the squad cap down on guardians to prevent payers from taking hordes of them. Currently they really aren't worth their points, and improving them so they do justify their point cost brings them into conflict with Dire Avengers. We went through this for pages and pages in both of the previous threads, and this is the best way about it that we came up with.

Great discussion. Glad to be a part of it.

My take on the dieing race fluff. Ya they have had a shitton of their planets destroyed and they’re on the run from Slannesh because their souls don’t go in the recycle bin anymore…instead a demon eats them. But their craftwords are the size of large cities…a large city the size of New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles are in the millions…even a small “large city” could be 500,000. So I kind of think of them like I do the Tau. As a race not in its prime, in the Tau’s case it’s because their a young race, for the Eldar it’s because of some catastrophe. That being said no one worries about the Tau fielding a lot of Fire Warriors. So I can buy into the fielding 3 squads of 20 guardian/storms because its only 60 guys out of 500k, deployed only after the Farseer did everything he could to get out of the battle in the first place. My ideal deployment is 1 squad Rangers, 3 squads of Das, 2 squads of 15 or 20 man Defenders.

Mechanically. Guardians suck and the only thing that makes them good is the swarm factor. As they as are, you wouldn’t want to MECH with them. Aspects make way more sense in the can and I’ll leave it at that. Guardians only purpose is to get destroyed while holding an objective. The shuriken catapults 12” range means that you’re not firing at all, or if you are close enough to fire you’re going to get assaulted the next turn if you don’t assault yourself. In squads of 10 when guardians get assaulted they get wiped out 1. Because they couldn’t do enough damage on their fire turn to widdle down the assaulters because of their squad size and 2. Because of the 12” ranges of their weapons, they only get one turn of fire before they’re assaulted.
If you keep them with the ability to go to 20 you can put some hurt on a squad you engaged at range. People will also think twice about charging a unit at full size. And you’re not running off the table if you’ve had 6-7 guys die do to fire. Mixing Storms and Defenders is classicly a bad idea because you only get half of what you pay for because the other half isn’t participating at full effectiveness.

I noticed you put down 18 on the range for the Shuriken Catapults….doing so makes the Dire Avengers useless once again. If you’re firm on this you may want to up the range on the DACatapults to 24…but as the Shuriken Catapult has always been described as an inaccurate weapon relying on its devastating rate of fire I don’t know how I feel about that either.

Just my take on stuff. Leave the 20 man option in. Those with different takes on the fluff/mechanics will use more or less as they see fit. Now as far as making them viable. Include the warlock in the initial points buy and for god’s sake make him cheaper (20 guys + Warlock with Conceal= 200pts =10 points per man, more factoring the HWP). I like Mahtamori’s Fusion/Flamer upgrade for one of every five guardians. I also like the idea of a platform at 5 and 15 men or 10 and 20 men. Not necessarily free, but upgradable. I don’t like 5 and 10 however. I’ve always played that platforms were transportable by Falcons/Serpents because I’ve never seen a ruling to the otherwise. I can imagine a Serpent toting 10 defenders, a warlock, and 2 HWPs….can’t do it….not…enough…room. I also like the previously mentioned, trade in your (2) HWPs for a Support Weapon – I like that idea a lot.

Defender Guardians: 75 points
Unit Size 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 HWP with Shuriken Cannon.
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Fleet
Wargear:Shuriken Catapult (Guardians), Witchblade (Warlock)

Options: Up to 15 additional Guardians may be purchased for 8 points a model. 1 Guardian out of every five may replace his shuriken catapult for a flamer (6 pts) or fusion gun (8 pts). If the number of guardians in the squad a number at least 15 a second HWP with Shuriken Cannon is provided at no additional points cost.

Warlock may take any of the options from the Warlock Entry.

Any shuriken cannon HWP may be upgraded to: Star Cannon (XX points), Scatter Laser (XX points), Eldar Missile Launcher (XX points), or Bright Lance (XX points). Alternately If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, both of them may be replaced with a single support weapon: D-Cannon (x points), Vibro-cannon (XX points) or Shadow Weaver (XX points).

Any unit sizing 6 models or less may take a Falcon as a dedicated transport, any unit sizing 12 models or less may take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.

So here are your possible configurations.
5 Defenders, Warlock, 1 HWP, 1 Spl Wpn
10 Defenders, Warlock, 1 HWP, 2 Spl Wpns
15 Defenders, Warlock, 2 HWPs, 3 Spl Wpns
15 Defenders, Warlock, 1 Support WP, 3 Spl Wpns
20 Defenders, Warlock, 2 HWPs, 4 Spl Wpns
20 Defenders, Warlock, 1 Support WP, 4 Spl Wpns

Anyways that’s my proposition combined with your efforts and my reasoning behind. C + C.

-MightyG

MightyGodzilla wrote:

Great discussion. Glad to be a part of it.

My take on the dieing race fluff. Ya they have had a shitton of their planets destroyed and they’re on the run from Slannesh because their souls don’t go in the recycle bin anymore…instead a demon eats them. But their craftwords are the size of large cities…a large city the size of New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles are in the millions…even a small “large city” could be 500,000. So I kind of think of them like I do the Tau. As a race not in its prime, in the Tau’s case it’s because their a young race, for the Eldar it’s because of some catastrophe. That being said no one worries about the Tau fielding a lot of Fire Warriors. So I can buy into the fielding 3 squads of 20 guardian/storms because its only 60 guys out of 500k, deployed only after the Farseer did everything he could to get out of the battle in the first place. My ideal deployment is 1 squad Rangers, 3 squads of Das, 2 squads of 15 or 20 man Defenders.

Mechanically. Guardians suck and the only thing that makes them good is the swarm factor. As they as are, you wouldn’t want to MECH with them. Aspects make way more sense in the can and I’ll leave it at that. Guardians only purpose is to get destroyed while holding an objective. The shuriken catapults 12” range means that you’re not firing at all, or if you are close enough to fire you’re going to get assaulted the next turn if you don’t assault yourself. In squads of 10 when guardians get assaulted they get wiped out 1. Because they couldn’t do enough damage on their fire turn to widdle down the assaulters because of their squad size and 2. Because of the 12” ranges of their weapons, they only get one turn of fire before they’re assaulted.
If you keep them with the ability to go to 20 you can put some hurt on a squad you engaged at range. People will also think twice about charging a unit at full size. And you’re not running off the table if you’ve had 6-7 guys die do to fire. Mixing Storms and Defenders is classicly a bad idea because you only get half of what you pay for because the other half isn’t participating at full effectiveness.

I noticed you put down 18 on the range for the Shuriken Catapults….doing so makes the Dire Avengers useless once again. If you’re firm on this you may want to up the range on the DACatapults to 24…but as the Shuriken Catapult has always been described as an inaccurate weapon relying on its devastating rate of fire I don’t know how I feel about that either.

Just my take on stuff. Leave the 20 man option in. Those with different takes on the fluff/mechanics will use more or less as they see fit. Now as far as making them viable. Include the warlock in the initial points buy and for god’s sake make him cheaper (20 guys + Warlock with Conceal= 200pts =10 points per man, more factoring the HWP). I like Mahtamori’s Fusion/Flamer upgrade for one of every five guardians. I also like the idea of a platform at 5 and 15 men or 10 and 20 men. Not necessarily free, but upgradable. I don’t like 5 and 10 however. I’ve always played that platforms were transportable by Falcons/Serpents because I’ve never seen a ruling to the otherwise. I can imagine a Serpent toting 10 defenders, a warlock, and 2 HWPs….can’t do it….not…enough…room. I also like the previously mentioned, trade in your (2) HWPs for a Support Weapon – I like that idea a lot.

Defender Guardians: 75 points
Unit Size 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 HWP with Shuriken Cannon.
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Fleet
Wargear:Shuriken Catapult (Guardians), Witchblade (Warlock)

Options: Up to 15 additional Guardians may be purchased for 8 points a model. 1 Guardian out of every five may replace his shuriken catapult for a flamer (6 pts) or fusion gun (8 pts). If the number of guardians in the squad a number at least 15 a second HWP with Shuriken Cannon is provided at no additional points cost.

Warlock may take any of the options from the Warlock Entry.

Any shuriken cannon HWP may be upgraded to: Star Cannon (XX points), Scatter Laser (XX points), Eldar Missile Launcher (XX points), or Bright Lance (XX points). Alternately If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, both of them may be replaced with a single support weapon: D-Cannon (x points), Vibro-cannon (XX points) or Shadow Weaver (XX points).

Any unit sizing 6 models or less may take a Falcon as a dedicated transport, any unit sizing 12 models or less may take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.

So here are your possible configurations.
5 Defenders, Warlock, 1 HWP, 1 Spl Wpn
10 Defenders, Warlock, 1 HWP, 2 Spl Wpns
15 Defenders, Warlock, 2 HWPs, 3 Spl Wpns
15 Defenders, Warlock, 1 Support WP, 3 Spl Wpns
20 Defenders, Warlock, 2 HWPs, 4 Spl Wpns
20 Defenders, Warlock, 1 Support WP, 4 Spl Wpns

Anyways that’s my proposition combined with your efforts and my reasoning behind. C + C.

-MightyG

I'm conflicted about this. While I do like the possible configurations you have listed, I also have a problem with the idea of guardian hordes/The dieing race problem.
Guardians are not used like Tau firewarriors, who are both the premier warrior caste and comprise the entirety of the Tau military (on the ground). Guardians are only employed when absolutely necessary, as the eldar are highly protective of their people's lives and rely on Aspect warriors to form the core of their strike forces. Tau also reproduce much more quickly than eldar do
When Guardians are used in battle, their role is to provide fire support and this is why I don't think the idea of a 10 man squad with two HWP's is a problem. Their BS is only 3 remember.
A 20 man squad is just too many bodies for an army of excellence like the eldar (though I realize guardians are not that excellent). I think 15 should be as high as we might go.

I don't have a problem with a max of 15 per se. Hell the last time I made a list my guardians were at 15. I realize that a max of 20 is a bit unwieldy for some players mechanically. But I'm also used to seeing that max of 20 from 3rd ed forward. I think I'm going to dig out the 2nd Ed Codex and see how they were sized back then.

I still can't really dig the 2 HWPs per 10 man (although I don't have a problem with 2 HWPs per 15man). With the special weapon options per 5 man in a 10 man squad your either proposing a 2 HWP 2 Spl Weap which is kind of ridiculous for 8 point troops with a BS of 3 or 2 HWPs and 1 Spl Weap which is kind of wierd (the more Heavies than Spls)

Also your proposition on 2 HWPs per 10 man combined with the lower transport cost is going to make Eldar MECH hell. Every unit will be transported in a serpent disgorging multiple HWPs and special weapons in the Eldar Serpent of Fury (Tau's FOF). That's great and all for a WAAC Eldar player, but that's never how I've envisioned my guardians operating on the field.

Gonna run a few errands and I'll hit the 2nd and 3rd ed codices....I'll be back.

-MightyG

I agree that having both multiple HWP's and SW's in the same squad is pretty OP and also kinda silly. Eldar do not take the space marine 'lets have a bit of everything' approach to their squads.
How about instead we say that for every 5 guardians they may take either a SW or a HWP. That way you can go all SW for close range oriented guardians (are storm guardians still an option here?) or all HWP for long range fire support. There is still a little room for people to be silly and take a bit of both but I don't think anyone would do that.

@ phoenix lords

Thoughts on one of the special rules that could be added to the phoenix lords, along with their eternal warrior, how about a rebirth. Fluff wise it fits with path or the warrior when Karandras is reborn by death of an Exarch. That could be brought in so that if your phoenix lord dies, you can sacrifice an exarch of the appropriate aspect. Maybe it only works on a dice roll similar to the We'll be back from the Necrons.

Never ending Cycle: If reduced to 0 wounds the phoenix lord may return to full health by absorbing the soul of an exarch of the appropriate aspect. Remove an exarch within 6" from the table and on a roll of 3+(2+ I don't know) the Phoenix lord is reborn with all wounds.

Tortoiseer wrote:I agree that having both multiple HWP's and SW's in the same squad is pretty OP and also kinda silly. Eldar do not take the space marine 'lets have a bit of everything' approach to their squads.
How about instead we say that for every 5 guardians they may take either a SW or a HWP. That way you can go all SW for close range oriented guardians (are storm guardians still an option here?) or all HWP for long range fire support. There is still a little room for people to be silly and take a bit of both but I don't think anyone would do that.

I believe the idea as it is now is that you have 2 HWPs at a maxed 10 man squad, potentially. However, you can forfeit your possibility to get a second HWP and instead upgrade your current HWP to a SW. My point: I don't really see why they aren't specialised as it is?

And in regards to DA getting useless with guardians having 18" range: I don't believe that. DA aim better and have better stats. Sure guardians have as many shots, but they only have 50% accuracy, AND they lack Bladestorm... and the higher leadership... and the exarch... and the better save... and the higher initiative... and the possibility to actually do something in combat (it's not a lot, but even in their current incarnations, I have wiped ork squads by assaulting them for gaks and giggles). Bottom line: DA are plenty useful. I do agree though, that if we have the possibility of taking 20 ing guardians, then DA are only viable as a mech incarnation, given that guardians have 18" range.

Wooly wrote:And in regards to DA getting useless with guardians having 18" range: I don't believe that. DA aim better and have better stats. Sure guardians have as many shots, but they only have 50% accuracy, AND they lack Bladestorm... and the higher leadership... and the exarch... and the better save... and the higher initiative... and the possibility to actually do something in combat (it's not a lot, but even in their current incarnations, I have wiped ork squads by assaulting them for gaks and giggles). Bottom line: DA are plenty useful. I do agree though, that if we have the possibility of taking 20 ing guardians, then DA are only viable as a mech incarnation, given that guardians have 18" range.

Look at the DA's entry again, we've got them down as S5, that alone makes them stand out.

Oh, right.
I was just trying to get the point across DA advantages.

Gorechild wrote:

Wooly wrote:And in regards to DA getting useless with guardians having 18" range: I don't believe that. DA aim better and have better stats. Sure guardians have as many shots, but they only have 50% accuracy, AND they lack Bladestorm... and the higher leadership... and the exarch... and the better save... and the higher initiative... and the possibility to actually do something in combat (it's not a lot, but even in their current incarnations, I have wiped ork squads by assaulting them for gaks and giggles). Bottom line: DA are plenty useful. I do agree though, that if we have the possibility of taking 20 ing guardians, then DA are only viable as a mech incarnation, given that guardians have 18" range.

Look at the DA's entry again, we've got them down as S5, that alone makes them stand out.

Just to play devil's advocate - and now you shat upon the Tau. I am really fine with the DA as they are today. They work. They don't need to have their version of the catapult improved however that puts the onus on what change can you make to the guardian catapult that will make it better than a 1 shot and die weapon.

DAaddict wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Wooly wrote:And in regards to DA getting useless with guardians having 18" range: I don't believe that. DA aim better and have better stats. Sure guardians have as many shots, but they only have 50% accuracy, AND they lack Bladestorm... and the higher leadership... and the exarch... and the better save... and the higher initiative... and the possibility to actually do something in combat (it's not a lot, but even in their current incarnations, I have wiped ork squads by assaulting them for gaks and giggles). Bottom line: DA are plenty useful. I do agree though, that if we have the possibility of taking 20 ing guardians, then DA are only viable as a mech incarnation, given that guardians have 18" range.

Look at the DA's entry again, we've got them down as S5, that alone makes them stand out.

Just to play devil's advocate - and now you shat upon the Tau. I am really fine with the DA as they are today. They work. They don't need to have their version of the catapult improved however that puts the onus on what change can you make to the guardian catapult that will make it better than a 1 shot and die weapon.

So to address Wooly first about DAs usefulness over the years. In 2nd ed there was a clear division between Guardians and Dire Avengers, that being Guardians wielded lasguns and DAs wielded ShurikenCats. There was a distinct division of quality. In 3rd ed guardians got ShurikenCats. And for 8 years nobody used Dire Avengers. The difference in points was too great not to notice, besides the fact that Guardians got the warlock cover save and a HWP. Frankly the fact that a DA could hit on a 3+ rather than a 4+ didn't matter for beans, neither did the fact that the DA's armor was better, or the Leadership, or the Initiative. That's the way it was for 8 years. People took DA for MECH slots and DAVU, but like I said you just never saw DAs.

Now in 4th ed the whole reason that DA's were back in the game was the 18" range on the DA ShurikenCat and BladeStorm. They were more tactically useful and they got picked up over guardians. It was like night and day. You give guardians the 18 also without upping the DA's game...then you have made the DAs useless again. Because for the record it won't be the (BS) or the (Ld), or the (I) that people want to choose DAs for, it was the difference in weapon (DA ShurikenCat) and the rate of fire (BladeStorm). Because honestly people don't deck the Exarch out with the power weapon and Shimmershield, or the Diresword, people choose DAs because they're shooty. Eldar are a specialized army, we've got people for assault; HBs and SSs, we don't need DAs for assault.

So that's the reason DAs are going to suck again. You want to make them better, don't up the STR on their DA ShurikenCat. As DAaddict says it just craps all over the Tau. My advice make them Assault 3, same 18 range. Splinter Carbine to Splinter Rifle if you need a comparison.

So now onto the Guardian Squad size. I've made plenty of vaild points in my previous posts; they're solid and I stand by them. First I'm going to address Wooly's and Gorechilds hard 10 man cap with all the upgrades. Simply put do you not acknowledge that a MECH'd out 10 man squad with two heavy weaponsj and 1/2 special weapons that can disembark and fire on the same turn is HORRIBLY OVERPOWERED? Do you acknowledge it, yes or no? Because RAW heavy weapons don't take up space on a transport and no other army can MECH like that. Your proposed Guardian MECH is just too OP and that's why I have a problem with it. That's the whole reason I said 5 and 15 on the HWPs. I like everything else you've proposed.

Now I'm going to move onto 20 max squad size. And I'll preface this by saying I'd even accept 15 as a max although I think 20 is spot on. First having 20 as a max in no way prevents people from MECHing at 10 or using less than 20 to suit their personal tastes. Now I'm going to pull the age card for a moment, I realize that it doesn't alter the strength of my arguements. I've owned and played eldar since RT and thru all three of their codices. Guardians have always had a squad size bigger than the aspect warriors; in 2Ed it was 10 vs 7, in 3Ed and 4Ed it was 20 vs 10. The reason is that the Eldar community brings citiizens to the battlefield. It the only army in 40k that does so. Every eldar trains for war, that's why the artisans who don't take up aspects have a stat line like Imperial Guard. And then we have the warriors who have stat lines closer to Marines. But in every society there are more citizens than warriors, citizens and warriors are no where equal in numbers. That is why since the conception of Codices in 40k guardians have always had a bigger squad size than aspects. You say "but they're a dieing race, we don't want to kill our guardians!! 10 man squads!" I answer with yes, they are a dieing race, that's why you see citizens with a lower statline, who are unspecialized, protected by a member from the seer path. They have to take up arms too. That is the fluff backing the mechanics of the game since the conception of the Eldar as a 40K army. No need to change it now, it's embedded. And in no way does it prevent you from taking less than 20 (or 15) using them how you will.

Please see my previous posts for my contributions on the guardian entry as they concern mechanics. I stand by them.

-MightyG

Point accepted. I can see your reasoning.
Alternatively: Just rule that 2 HWPs/1 SW = no transport? Too bulky. But yeah, I see your point.

<sigh> Alright I will try my old suggestion on an "improvement" of the Guardian Defender emphasis on Defender.

Make their shuricats Rapid Fire 18". This leaves them with an improved range if they don't move and still gives them that lethal 2 shot punch if the target gets within 12". What are they giving up? Well the ability to fire and assault.
If you are going to point out that rapid fire sucks... really? Are you telling me you plan on assaulting with guardians?

Rapid fire shuricats is a big improvement for all the vehicles and while so-so for guardians I will point out that the title says it all DEFENDERS. So while 20 guardians can match the firepower of dire avengers they can't move and match.

The real beauty of this is that it leaves the Dire Avenger catapult alone and still leaves Dire Avengers a role while the ability to take 4 platforms in a 20-man guardian squad gives me reason to take it also. So @150 for DA putting out 20(30) S4 shots at BS4 or defenders putting out 16 S6 shots to 36" range and 20 S4 shots at 18" or 40 at 12" range for about the same price range. ( Assuming zero cost shurcannons and slightly less cost for scatter lasers.)

*scans through dex*
Aah, I missed something out. I was reading through your post thinking to myself "but we werent going to let you put them in transports", It looks like I completely forgot to out the description in though
You're right, as its worded, its OP.

We were discussing the idea that you'd not be able to take a transport if you had a heavy weapons platform (this was back when we were discussing Storm Guardians).

An option could be to simply remove Guardians option to have a dedicated transport? That would lead to DA's being the troops for stealing enemy objectives, whilst the guardians sit back and defend. Either that or just state that the HWP's take up 2 transport capacity each, this would makeit ipossible for a full unit (10 guardians + Warock) to get in a transport with their weapons.

There is nothing wrong with DAs having S5 weapons. It doesn't "crap all over tau" because 1) tau are getting a re-write, and 2) they have a plethora of other ranged weapon systems which suffice to establish their superiority over the eldar in ranged combat.

Furthermore, the idea that a 10-man unit of guardians with 2 fusion guns and ... 2x EML hopping out of a wave serpent and shooting at something is "overpowered" is pretty absurd. At that point you're talking about 300 points of investment to get 4 bs 3 shots with heavy weapons. If you're attacking a MEQ squad, your heavy weapons will fry two marines, and you'll get whatever you do out of your shuricats. For 300 points. If you're attacking a tank, you get exactly what you get now, with 2 extra heavy weapon platforms. At BS3.

Do you know why its a terrible idea to take a guardian storm unit with 2 fusion guns as a poor-man's FD squad? You can do this, and it sucks. It sucks because it can't hit the broadside of a barn and it is overpriced. The only configuration that is worth it is the 2-flamer+destructor lock squad. No one complains about that, because it isn't broken. Its barely effective.

It isn't overpowered, its an improvement.

It shouldn't be allowed anyway. The current way the codex deals with embarkation and HWPs is stupid and janky. It should be very simple - HWP=no emarkation. However, if it were allowed, it wouldn't be overpowered.

Rapid Fire shuricats is a giant middle finger to guardians. It really is. They suffer this entire edition with weapons which completely suck, and for their "upgrade" they go from 12" assault 2 to 18" rapidfire. Do you all operate under some sort of xenos/eldar inferiority complex? Forcing guardians to close to that close of range isn't going to fix them. They will remain broken.

Guardians are really, really simple.
The Guardian Shuriken Catapult: S3 AP5 R24 Assault2
1 HWP or Special Weapon (fusion gun/flamer/power weapon) per 5, at cost
may exchange shuriken catapults for close combat weapon and shuriken pistols for free
max 10.
May take wave serpent as DT
a unit with a HWP may not embark on a transport.

No horde, they provide fire support, but need Doom to ever be anything close to "effective" (as they should). And the best thing is that, just like the Avenger Shuricat, their weapon is a different weapon from the stock Shuriken Catapult, so their change doesn't cross over to affect GJB, SS, vehicles, vypers, etc.

@ Guardians and Dire Avengers.
The big break for Dire Avengers weren't that they got +6" range, really. How often do you really use that range? The big difference was that Dire Avengers got proper Exarch power in Bladestorm, but more importantly that the meta game changed.
Going from 3rd to 4th edition there are two units that hasn't changed one iota in the Eldar codex - Fire Dragons (-1 ppm) and Wave Serpent (lost free Shurican). These are, currently in 5th edition with all the price discounts flung around like proverbial faeces from a monkey's hand, suddenly the two best units in the Eldar army. Fire Dragons were the red-headed step child in 3rd edition, I should add.
(Small anecdote: 3rd edition Fire Dragon exarch power "Burning Fist" - power weapon + re-roll to wound)

With Bladestorm remaining with the Dire Avengers, they will still keep their +60% shock troop kill performance, so their mechanization superiority will not change.
I do believe that something that's been lost is the long list of suggestions. Along with the suggestion for 5-10 Guardians with 2-3 heavy weapons in that squad size (yes, 1 HWP per 3 Guardians was suggested) was also the suggestion that HWPs should prevent you from taking a transport. In the end, the thing that was unanimously agreed on result was that SWP would prevent mechanization (regardless of which squad the weapons end up in), which I think the end-document lost.

However, I wish to bring up that the issue is not all between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers, but also with Guardian Jetbikes, and all the vehicle under-slung choices. As it stand, even offering Shuriken Catapults for the Wraithlord is making a noob-alarm, I should add.
Guardian Jetbikes are currently brilliant for tactical manoeuvres and last-turn contest/claim, however, their performance in everything combat-related is lacking. Jetbike lists simply win through tactical brilliance and Warlock death stars. One could be so evil as to say that a player who win often with an Eldar Jetbike list will be expected to massacre opposition with a Dark Eldar Jetbike list which can, in addition, also kill stuff.

In either case, I am restating a lot of things that Gwydion's already wrote, I see. The most ideal way to deal with it would be to give the Guardians a weapon called the Star Rifle <R24" S4 Ap3 Assault 1>; and let the Dire Avengers be the Troop choice dedicated to dealing with Hordes. Then you can have one, single, Shuriken Catapult with the Dire Avenger stats that doesn't interfere with the Guardians and can actually be worth a damned as a defensive weapon. As in, it can actually reach what you want to shoot at.

I'd still like to keep the CW: Eldar model count low, regardless of build. By the way, with the basic weapon of that calibre, the Guardians could be just like Space Marines - take 10 and only then you get a free Shuriken Catapult.
This means that they'd be just about the only unit that actually encourages maxing their numbers.

P.S. I don't care about what an Eldar list does to a Tau army in terms of comparative armaments. Eldar are still meant to be technologically superior, arrogant like the sun rise to do their bidding (which it bloody well does), and over all quite shooty themselves (although at closer range). It's the Tau army's problem that their infantry weapons don't suit their army very well.

P.P.S. In 2nd editions, the Shuriken Catapult was bloody dangerous, deadlier than a Bolter, for example.

@Guardians

Gwydion said:

The Guardian Shuriken Catapult: S3 AP5 R24 Assault2
1 HWP or Special Weapon (fusion gun/flamer/power weapon) per 5, at cost
may exchange shuriken catapults for close combat weapon and shuriken pistols for free
max 10.
May take wave serpent as DT
a unit with a HWP may not embark on a transport.

I like the thought of comparing the range for the Dire Avenger and Guardian catapults and then simply reducing the strength on the guardian version. Keeps a difference between the two, but makes the weapons similar and allows the guardians to shoot twice and maybe even three times if they are lucky. I think that would increase their ability to survive quite a bit. AP 5 makes sense, the suggestion I just saw to make it AP 3 seems over powered. You would have a base squad that was marine killers.

An additional thought I had fluff wise. There are Eldar citizens who were aspect warriors, but then returned to life away from war. However they too would be drawn up for necessary combat, and likely sooner since they would have better training. Ex HB and SS would likely become storm guardians and Ex DA would make great guardians. Could there be a veteran status, whether as a troop leader, veteran squad that could be created out of that? Or am I just trying to interject a whole extra can of worms.

probably too much of a can of worms - though it could be possible to introduce Black Guardians ... but honestly, we have problems with Guardians almost stepping on DA's toes ... Black Guardians are better than regular guardians, but not as good as DAs..... thats a mess.

Also, my understanding is that eldar aspect warriors enter a trance-like ritualistic mental state, to insulate their psyche from war. I wouldn't think the skills and abilities available to them in that sort of state would be retained in civilian life.

@ The whole issue of stepping on Tau's foot.

I agree that Eldar, being what they are, should have access to some of, if not the most advanced technology in the game. Sure they might end up with weapons that seem to pwn the shooty army of Tau, but then you could just emphasise on Eldar having a low model count and let Tau have more models.

Lol at the strength 5 avenger catapults. Highly doubt thats happening.

Dire avengers are already one of the best shooting infantry choices point for point as it is.

Strength 5 avenger catapults = 15 points per dire avenger. You can have that for nigh marine cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually dire avengers should have strength 3 guns because they are fillthy xenos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the runes of nullification is a joke. Why would you have runes of warding and a copy of a psychic hood with unlimited range.

My guess is in the balance of things they will likely just keep RoW and reduce it to 24inches.

Eldar players should be quite content with the runes of warding buff from 3rd to 4th edition.

No! We are not satisfied with having the best psychic defence in the game! *Frownie face*
Well, I can see you point. I do, however, agree with Gorechild that the psychic supremacy of the Eldar should be shown, although without walking into Matt Ward territory.

Wooly wrote:No! We are not satisfied with having the best psychic defence in the game! *Frownie face*
Well, I can see you point. I do, however, agree with Gorechild that the psychic supremacy of the Eldar should be shown, although without walking into Matt Ward territory.

This could be shown in two ways - discounted farseers. To follow the trend - say 100 pts for a fully outfited farseer, +50 for the ability to cast 2 spells. ANY spells.

Some passive spells available - Perhaps some point cost abilities that are passive.
1. An option to fake out the enemy and delay a reinforcement.
2. Ala eldrad, the ability to see into the future and move D3 units post-deployment but pre-game.
3. An option to steal the initiative with a +1.
4. An option to force one opposing unit into reserve.

Spells that should basically be enhancers rather than direct damage.

1. Guide as is
2. Fortune as is
3. Eyes of the hawk 12" are grant one unit +1 BS
4. Lion claws 12" grant one unit +1 A or reroll to hit.
5. Mindwar no cover saves - please.
6. Doom as is
7. Eldritch storm - this needs to be boosted somehow. Perhaps an auto-glance on any vehicle touched and maybe a T save or take one wound for anything under it rather than a strength/wound/save situation. Perhaps make the next movement as if through dangerous terrain.