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Wow. Never thought I'd see Sidstyler take dogma apart in a debate. Makes me wonder if D is just playing devil's advocate.

Mannahnin wrote:Never thought I'd see Sidstyler take dogma apart in a debate

Only when it comes to toys, I guess. If you bet on me when it comes to any other topic you're throwing your money away, lol.

Mannahnin wrote:Makes me wonder if D is just playing devil's advocate.

I just assumed he was. I have no idea what the penis thing is about, though. I haven't seen any models like that from GW or Infinity...maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, lol.

Personally I think the Infinity models are mostly of excellent, even exceptional, quality.

I think the issue, as we've touched on before, comes with conflicting hopes/expectations.

Some gamers apparently are hoping to use Infinity as a "hard sci-fi" alternative to GW. 40k is not really sci-fi, it's Space Opera. An epic-scale fantasy writ large across a future which is a GRIMDARK (tm) dystopian mix of future and past ideas. Many, really most, of the Infinity models, on the other hand, look much more credible and plausible as belonging to a sci-fi universe which might, conceivably, happen.

If one is inspired by the possibility of a "realistic" sci-fi/speculative fiction skirmish wargame, and one wants to use the models for that, the cheesecake models become a problem. They clash with that concept.

Which is okay, and not Infinity's fault, by any means, even if it does limit part of their audience. It's evident that they're not really looking to be the "hard sci-fi" game, they're looking to match that niche of anime which uses great and realistic and cool designs in part as a backdrop against which scantily-glad girls can POP, in greater contrast, from the battlefield and show to better advantage.

Delephont wrote:I don't know how people can still be saying "X miniature doesn't fit into the range / game"...

In infinity particular case they say that because they do not understand the style infinity miniatures are based in, if they do not understand the concept, what does and does not fit it's simply a sad hostage of personal random opinions...

Mannahnin wrote:Personally I think the Infinity models are mostly of excellent, even exceptional, quality.

I think the issue, as we've touched on before, comes with conflicting hopes/expectations.

Some gamers apparently are hoping to use Infinity as a "hard sci-fi" alternative to GW. 40k is not really sci-fi, it's Space Opera. An epic-scale fantasy writ large across a future which is a GRIMDARK (tm) dystopian mix of future and past ideas. Many, really most, of the Infinity models, on the other hand, look much more credible and plausible as belonging to a sci-fi universe which might, conceivably, happen.

If one is inspired by the possibility of a "realistic" sci-fi/speculative fiction skirmish wargame, and one wants to use the models for that, the cheesecake models become a problem. They clash with that concept.

Which is okay, and not Infinity's fault, by any means, even if it does limit part of their audience. It's evident that they're not really looking to be the "hard sci-fi" game, they're looking to match that niche of anime which uses great and realistic and cool designs in part as a backdrop against which scantily-glad girls can POP, in greater contrast, from the battlefield and show to better advantage.

I 100% agree with this.

Mannahnin wrote:
If one is inspired by the possibility of a "realistic" sci-fi/speculative fiction skirmish wargame, and one wants to use the models for that, the cheesecake models become a problem. They clash with that concept.
.

That concept you mention is only half of the deal, anime has 50% chance to pend to fantastic or to realism... its a very diverse concept and crosses a lot of areas but one thing you cannot say is that the sexy ladies dont fit in... not only they fit but they are like a big chunk of animes genetic codes, just like humor, weapon sizes, small mascots, perv old mans, outburst of feelings, atomic bombs etc

NAVARRO wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
If one is inspired by the possibility of a "realistic" sci-fi/speculative fiction skirmish wargame, and one wants to use the models for that, the cheesecake models become a problem. They clash with that concept.
.

That concept you mention is only half of the deal, anime has 50% chance to pend to fantastic or to realism... its a very diverse concept and crosses a lot of areas but one thing you cannot say is that the sexy ladies dont fit in... not only they fit but they are like a big chunk of animes genetic codes, just like humor, weapon sizes, small mascots, perv old mans, outburst of feelings, atomic bombs etc

You are misunderstanding Navarro, its not that the sexy ladies don't fit the concept of anime, everyone knows that they are prevalent in that stylle, its that they don't fit the "serious" and "plausible" sci-fi setting that some people hoped Infinity to be, myself included. Obviously this was not what CB envisioned for their setting and as far as I go, I won't let that stop me from enjoying the game, I just won't use any miniatures that don't fit into my personal view of the setting.

The thread should really have been titled:

"Infinity, the game I wish it was".

Then I would have countered with:

"WH40K, WHFB, War-Machine, Anima Tactics, Malifaux.....the games I wish they were".

Or perhaps, "How to learn to say no to spending your money on the next "big" game to hit the shelves.....and then complaining about it"

CT GAMER wrote:

biccat wrote:

BobbaFett wrote:By the way. The "horrendous Daktaris" is a top 10 best selling miniature of the range. Who do you think CB will pay attention to, sales or forums?

You do realize that the Infinity models suffer from the particular design flaw of being "not Space Marines."

In many peoples' eyes, this makes them terrible miniatures. Dakka has a fair share of these types.

So it is impossible to not like a non-GW miniature/game without being a fanboy?

That is a weak defense...

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.

In fact, I've quoted my post above to make sure.

There are plenty of GW fanboys here who love anything GW makes because it's a GW product. They hate any other miniatures because they're not GW products.

You can tell because they're the ones who mail-order GW Green Stuff, GW Super Glue, and GW knife blades (for use with their Official Games Workshop Hobby Knife).

Delephont wrote:The thread should really have been titled:

"Infinity, the game I wish it was".

Then I would have countered with:

"WH40K, WHFB, War-Machine, Anima Tactics, Malifaux.....the games I wish they were".

Or perhaps, "How to learn to say no to spending your money on the next "big" game to hit the shelves.....and then complaining about it"

You are being way too confrontational and defensive for absolutely no reason.

People don't have to agree 100% with everything about a game to enjoy it. There isn't a single game from your "list" that I'm 100% behind every decision that their creators made and yet I activelly play and enjoy the majority of them.

PhantomViper wrote: its that they don't fit the "serious" and "plausible" sci-fi setting that some people hoped Infinity to be, myself included.

Serious and plausible are also features quite present in anime, just because the expression of something follows a particular code it does not mean the style lacks plausibility or seriousness... in Infinity debate IMO its like you walk into a bar and don't expect them to sell alcoholic drinks and say they don't fit... In your particular case you are saying you don't like martini but its still a serious drink and plausible to be sold on a bar. See my point?

Just because anime has sexy gals it doesn't discard the fact that it can be packed with very serious scifi universes/ themes/ subjects etc... Besides anime is popular by its extreme contrasts and the way they manage to balance between each others and create a much more plausible fantasy world.

Navarro, the problem is that it's not "like walking into a bar" that serves martinis.

For the models in question(which are not the Posthumans, except for the Mark 1 really), it's like walking into an establishment which bills itself as a bar...which only sells tap water and soda.

PhantomViper wrote:You are being way too confrontational and defensive for absolutely no reason.

People don't have to agree 100% with everything about a game to enjoy it. There isn't a single game from your "list" that I'm 100% behind every decision that their creators made and yet I activelly play and enjoy the majority of them.

I'm not being confrontational or defensive, that's just the way you interpret my post.

What I'm about to post is my final post on this thread. Nobody expects a gamer to support EVERY decision a company makes reagrding it's I.P. The issue I have with this thread, and indeed many threads like this, is that there is no real meaningful discussion taking place here. Both sides have dug in their heels and the "debate" rages back and forth with no real outcome possible.

What I have tried to "inject" at several points, is that the setting is what it is, accept it or reject it, but don't keep harping on about it.

Kan kicked all of this off in the Infinity sub forum, and when (in general) the point was rejected by the majority that posted there, he felt a need to continue to press the point.....to what end I do not know. Perhaps he was hoping to sway the other posters to agree and also refuse to buy the offending miniatures, perhaps he thought the guys from CB would read the post and decide to completely rethink their setting and the miniatures they produce....truth be told, both of those outcomes were more unrealistic than high heels on power armour. Perhaps he simply thought that he needed to justify why he thought the miniatures were "silly", which he did again, and again, and again......

The end effect is this circular debate that really is on a one way trip to nowhere.

Enjoy the ride.

The end effect is that yourself and several others interpreted the original point wrong and proceeded from there, harping on some idea that it's all about some idea of "being a prude" rather than getting the point that it's silly for a company to alter a range's dynamic simply based upon the change from male to female.

If it were present in EVERY SINGLE RANGE they produce--you would have a point. But it's not. PanOceania is not full of models wearing cut-off shirts because they're female, or posing like they're on a photoshoot for a calendar. Yu-Jing and Haqqislam are not full of that either, despite Haqqislam having artwork(note: artwork) showing the same.

dogma wrote:Its probably been said before, but its not about realism, its about style.

What style?

Kanluwen wrote:You basically picked out, seemingly, almost every piece of art with a female.

Yes, I did. Because nearly every piece of art with a female in it in Infinity has enhanced sexuality. Even Joan of Arc has an enormous, unnecessarily form-fitting breast plate as she gives a sultry look over her shoulder and beckons you to follow.

What are you saying is "cheesecake" about the art on p101? They're all sitting inside a VTOL of some sort, and she's wearing armor like the rest of the squad.

Armour that unnecessarily follows the contours of her breasts exactly, complete with mold-lines running straight down the nipple line in case you needed help remembering where they are. And oh, gee, non of the men have nipple-finding mold lines on their armor. I'm sure it's just a coincidence. Maybe the added material of putting form-fitting boob-plates in the armor requires that armor to be cast in three pieces, eh? Then there's the fact that she is apparently wearing white spandex for pants, with the composition of the page arranged just so you can see her butt sticking out. I'm sure that's just a coincidence too.

You do realize though, that several of these were things that Slarg mentioned yeah?

Well, it's great that Slarg agrees with me then, but I don't really care. My point is that hyper-sexualized characters has been part of all Infinity ranges (apart from perhaps Yu Jing, though they do put high heels on the Hsien, and the Combined, though they've had Zerat with boobs for a while which is not too shocking as the Morat appear to be mammilian) from the get-go. It's absurd that you keep trying to pretend these figures don't fit. You are wrong. Get over it.

JOHIRA wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You basically picked out, seemingly, almost every piece of art with a female.

Yes, I did. Because nearly every piece of art with a female in it in Infinity has enhanced sexuality. Even Joan of Arc has an enormous, unnecessarily form-fitting breast plate as she gives a sultry look over her shoulder and beckons you to follow.

I'm not really getting a "sultry look" from that artwork, but okay. I'll give you the breastplate bit but I don't know exactly what kind of armor they're having these people wear. All I remember is she's supposed to be wearing some form of powered armor, but I highly doubt that it's going to be like Astartes plate where a "normal" human being is swallowed up within it.

What are you saying is "cheesecake" about the art on p101? They're all sitting inside a VTOL of some sort, and she's wearing armor like the rest of the squad.

Armour that unnecessarily follows the contours of her breasts exactly, complete with mold-lines running straight down the nipple line in case you needed help remembering where they are. And oh, gee, non of the men have nipple-finding mold lines on their armor. I'm sure it's just a coincidence. Maybe the added material of putting form-fitting boob-plates in the armor requires that armor to be cast in three pieces, eh? Then there's the fact that she is apparently wearing white spandex for pants, with the composition of the page arranged just so you can see her butt sticking out. I'm sure that's just a coincidence too.

Out of those squadmates:
One is wearing what appears to be modified Nomad gear, specifically that of a Bakunin Zero with some kind of comms aerial attached to it.
One is wearing a tunic and what looks like leather or faux leather pants.
The other two are wearing the same style of armor plate as the female and the same kind of pants. They're white on the front with a dark blue or black on the underside. You can see it on the guy sitting in the foreground.

I think that's kind of causing it to look like "her butt sticking out". But I don't know for certain.

You do realize though, that several of these were things that Slarg mentioned yeah?

Well, it's great that Slarg agrees with me then, but I don't really care. My point is that hyper-sexualized characters has been part of all Infinity ranges (apart from perhaps Yu Jing, though they do put high heels on the Hsien, and the Combined, though they've had Zerat with boobs for a while which is not too shocking as the Morat appear to be mammilian) from the get-go. It's absurd that you keep trying to pretend these figures don't fit. You are wrong. Get over it.

Except I'm not saying the figures don't fit in the game.
I'm saying they don't fit in the ranges they are put into nor do they fit when put into comparison with females from the other armies.

Kanluwen wrote:If it were present in EVERY SINGLE RANGE they produce--you would have a point. But it's not. PanOceania is not full of models wearing cut-off shirts because they're female, or posing like they're on a photoshoot for a calendar.

But they do have Acontecimento Regulars with bare midriffs and the Kamau certainly is in a stick-out-her-butt pose, but I'm sure that's just the most efficient position to hack from.

Haqqislam are not full of that either, despite Haqqislam having artwork(note: artwork) showing the same.

Perhaps you've not looked at the Kum Motorized troops, Ghulam Infantry, the Odalisques, Hassassin Muyibs, Hassassin Fiday, or the other Odalisque.

Now you're just reaching.

Of those, only the Kum Motorized Troop and the Kamau are really "objectifying" the person. The rest are certainly not combat poses, but they're not exactly something you'd see for a pinup calendar either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should also add that most of the Hackers(male and female) have silly poses.

Hello all, as a neutral on the subject (old enough to not care if I encounter cheesecake, but not old enough to have kids that encounter it), I find the arguements bland an redacted.

1. Arguing plausibility of a fantasy is silly and redundant, as plausibility is a subjective concept within the artists framework. (I find it plausible that there might be a few people in the vast universe that want to dress sexy in the future, rules be damned)
2. This is a fantasy setting, in a real war everyone would look roughly the same and be wearing helmets (have you ever seen a 'feminine' soldier?)... Thus the only differance would be hair... Which would probably be cut down to fit in the helmet... So boom, all your male models now double as female. Now if there is a desire for distinctly female models we arrive at an impasse...
3. No one gives a hoot that all men have huge bulging arms (an overtly masculine feature), or chiseled abs (also a feature that is considered 'sexy'). Why should only women be criticized for overdone features?
4. Much like modern times weapons outevolve armor... That's why we have flak jackets, or bullet proof vests... You protect the most vital organs, while admitting it is impractical or flat out impossible to make the bearer impervious to harm. Once someone is aclimated to the dangers around them they often cut corners in regards to personal safety.
5. It's fiction. If you arnt a fan, and you have every right not to be, then don't consume. Learn to model, learn to greenstuff over the things you don't enjoy, paint them in a way to take the emphasis off parts you don't like, proxy from another range. Anything past this makes one seem like a hater who is too lazy to do anything past complain, which again everyone is entitled to, but should at least have the awareness of self to realize it is happening.

Kiwidru wrote:as plausibility is a subjective concept within the artists framework

It's the artist's/writer's/director's job to make the framework actually work.

Kiwidru wrote:Hello all, as a neutral on the subject (old enough to not care if I encounter cheesecake, but not old enough to have kids that encounter it), I find the arguements bland an redacted.

1. Arguing plausibility of a fantasy is silly and redundant, as plausibility is a subjective concept within the artists framework. (I find it plausible that there might be a few people in the vast universe that want to dress sexy in the future, rules be damned)
2. This is a fantasy setting, in a real war everyone would look roughly the same and be wearing helmets (have you ever seen a 'feminine' soldier?)... Thus the only differance would be hair... Which would probably be cut down to fit in the helmet... So boom, all your male models now double as female. Now if there is a desire for distinctly female models we arrive at an impasse...
3. No one gives a hoot that all men have huge bulging arms (an overtly masculine feature), or chiseled abs (also a feature that is considered 'sexy'). Why should only women be criticized for overdone features?
4. Much like modern times weapons outevolve armor... That's why we have flak jackets, or bullet proof vests... You protect the most vital organs, while admitting it is impractical or flat out impossible to make the bearer impervious to harm. Once someone is aclimated to the dangers around them they often cut corners in regards to personal safety.
5. It's fiction. If you arnt a fan, and you have every right not to be, then don't consume. Learn to model, learn to greenstuff over the things you don't enjoy, paint them in a way to take the emphasis off parts you don't like, proxy from another range. Anything past this makes one seem like a hater who is too lazy to do anything past complain, which again everyone is entitled to, but should at least have the awareness of self to realize it is happening.

I said I wasn't going to post again, but this post ^^ makes me happy inside! Finally someone who get's it.

Best post of the thread if you ask me!

I'm wondering exactly how sexually repressed the first person to use the term cheesecake in relation to minis really is.

NAVARRO wrote:
Joking aside, everyone has its limits, mine is called wet nurse...

Ill agree with that. It takes a lot to make me "ugh" at a miniature...and that one did it.

However, I dont care if its made/sold, and its presence on a board would not make me leave the game...but all in all its a bit too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Now you're just reaching.

Of those, only the Kum Motorized Troop and the Kamau are really "objectifying" the person.

IMO the Kamau is far too mechanical to be sexual. The curves/lines arent smooth (broken by panels/gaps), the face is quite alien looking, etc. If thats enough to get someones soldier at attention then perhaps it is time to leave the gaming and date a bit.

Kanluwen wrote:Navarro, the problem is that it's not "like walking into a bar" that serves martinis.

For the models in question(which are not the Posthumans, except for the Mark 1 really), it's like walking into an establishment which bills itself as a bar...which only sells tap water and soda.

hehe... that would only be the case if corvus belli introduced space marines in infinity.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything being brought up here.

Kanluwen wrote:That has absolutely nothing to do with anything being brought up here.

Ah glad to see that relaxed chat is not appreciated, you do seem a bit to inclined to judge what fits and does not fit both within infinity and also on this chat... glad the world is not only your playground and in this case you don't even own the ball so...

Kanluwen wrote:Now you're just reaching.

Of those, only the Kum Motorized Troop and the Kamau are really "objectifying" the person.

We're not talking about objectification. If we are, then it is only because you are shifting the goal posts to avoid admitting you were wrong when you claimed sexualized female minis don't fit Infinity.

Every one of those minis I posted shows a sexualized female component, be it a bare midriff on an otherwise armored mini, a pose adopted for sex appeal rather than battle-field practicality, or unnecessarily form-fitting armor. Every one. Don't start trying to make this subjective by slipping in unquantifiable aspects of sexuality that you personally judge "acceptable". Sexualized female minis are a valid part of Infinity. Fact. Quit trying to pretend that you know the game's aesthetic better than the people who freaking made the game. You don't like like the sexualized aspects of Infinity. That's fine. That doesn't make them invalid.

warboss wrote:So is this fruitcake? (the equivalent for female gamers) We've got ripped abs and armor pecs complete with nipples a plenty while the catachans do their best village people/male stripper impressions while flexing their beefy arms.



While I agree that female models generally fill the brunt of this subgenre, it does cross the chromosomal line.

I don't mean to derail this thread, but why do people dislike the bare torso armour? This is intended to be romanticised and angelic. If this is sexualised, could the same be said of the renaissance paintings and sculptures that are widely respected and admired today?

After reading through 7 pages of this discussion/argument one thing has struck me.

I really, really want a piece of cheesecake now...