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malfred wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

malfred wrote:
World War 2 with cheesecake anyone?

Dont get me started, I will put my horny lonely sculptor hat and this thread will be doomed

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying that a faithful re-enactment
will not include such models. Also no beefcake.

She looks faithful to me



Joking aside, everyone has its limits, mine is called wet nurse...

All this thread made me want to do is buy an Al-Hawwa model to paint, because it looks totally boss.

Fabricator-General Mike, please fix your quote tags. You've got stuff I didn't write appearing as quoted of me.

-Loki- wrote:All this thread made me want to do is buy an Al-Hawwa model to paint, because it looks totally boss.

I personally want a Hassassin Lasaqs (Male).

Dude looks like Gun Druid.

Cheese cake is really nice ....

I am not opposed to the cheesecake models in infinity, however I am not happy with the latest sculpts based on their lack of adequate poses. I feel some of the new aleph models appear to be more of a pinup photo shoot than a battle field. One of the three scultps from the new aleph is at least directing by pointing instead of is some silly pose. The overall aesthetics of the new models do fit the faction hey are in, I mean if you were a girl and had a choice of your looks: "hey you have a new body ready for your cube to be downloaded, you can choose from our line of sexy female cyborgs or from our line of people of walmart, if you are a dude, we have an Achilles body for you, or what we call the Homer Simpson..." Clearly the whole line is not scantily clad posing females, just as GW would not be represented proportionality if I post up old daemonettes or dark eldar models like Lilith. I guess even GW panders to a all sects of war gamers.

Korraz wrote:But calling them poor quality? I don't even have words for that.

An otherwise well crafted miniature of poor composition and posing isn't a very good miniature.

Bearing in mind that the quality of a pose may be a matter of subjective taste.

If the intent of the sculptor is to portray a realistic model in the middle of battle, many of these poses are poor quality.

If the intent of the sculptor is to evoke a scene out of an anime involving a scantly-clad woman on a battlefield, then the same pose may be of high quality.

Pretty much all of the complaints regarding 'cheesecake' are based purely on design choices, not poor composition and posing. The posing is quite deliberate, and it's mostly a matter of taste.

Nobody is saying Infinity minis are of poor quality.

*eyerolls at the whole thread*

Since when has cheesecake -not- been a part of SF/Fantasy art....

Kanluwen wrote:Cheesecake may have been a part of Infinity since the beginning, but it wasn't a defining feature then(and aside from the factions that Slarg mentioned) and it isn't a defining feature now.

Have you by chance ever opened the rule book and had a look inside?

JOHIRA wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Cheesecake may have been a part of Infinity since the beginning, but it wasn't a defining feature then(and aside from the factions that Slarg mentioned) and it isn't a defining feature now.

Have you by chance ever opened the rule book and had a look inside?

Yes, I have.


That's the inside front cover of mine, courtesy of the Corvus Belli guys. I've had it since January of 2009. It's currently off of my bookshelf, along with "The Human Sphere" while I use some of the art as references for painting my brother's Combined Army and my own ALEPH Naga/Dasyus.

And you know what? Unless we have very different copies, I've not seen too much in the way of cheesecake outside of the armies that Slarg mentioned. If you've got some page references though--I'd love them so I can have some more "proof".

Second Edition Revised:
13 (Pan O), 43 (Ariadna), 51 (Ariadna), 54 (Ariadna), 59 (Haqqislam (in the background)), 60 (Haqqislam), 61 (Haqqislam), 73 (Nomads), 77 (Nomads), 79 (Nomads), 81 (Nomads), 82 (Nomads), 85 (Nomads), 101 (Mercs), 107 (Unkown faction art), 124 (Aleph), 173 (Unsure, maybe Ariadna?), 176 (Ariadna), 185 (Nomads),

That's every page with an image depicting a female character with highlighted sexual features, including the very first image representing Aleph. And that's also every faction except for Yu Jing and Combined depicted with enhanced sexuality for female characters in the core rulebook (I'd argue that many males are also depicted with enhanced sexuality, only that in Infinity as in any forms of entertainment male sexuality is depicted in combat proficiency).

Face it, you're wrong. Cheesecake isn't out of place in Infinity- it's part of what Infinity is all about. The only faction with nothing along those lines I can think of is Yu Jing (site's down so I can't look at their catalog).

Now, you're welcome to dislike that aspect of Infinity. Just like anyone is welcome to dislike any aspect of any game. But when you say the sexy characters don't fit the game, you are flat out wrong. They are part of the game. The game and miniature designers aren't wrong, you just don't like something they did. Move on with your life.

Well I'll be damned...

Cheescake
Informal. Also called leg art. photographs featuring scantily clothed attractive women.

You learn something every day. I thought this was going to be a thread about common gaming snacks...

As did I when I opened it.

JOHIRA wrote:Second Edition Revised:
13 (Pan O), 43 (Ariadna), 51 (Ariadna), 54 (Ariadna), 59 (Haqqislam (in the background)), 60 (Haqqislam), 61 (Haqqislam), 73 (Nomads), 77 (Nomads), 79 (Nomads), 81 (Nomads), 82 (Nomads), 85 (Nomads), 101 (Mercs), 107 (Unkown faction art), 124 (Aleph), 173 (Unsure, maybe Ariadna?), 176 (Ariadna), 185 (Nomads),

That's every page with an image depicting a female character with highlighted sexual features, including the very first image representing Aleph. And that's also every faction except for Yu Jing and Combined depicted with enhanced sexuality for female characters in the core rulebook (I'd argue that many males are also depicted with enhanced sexuality, only that in Infinity as in any forms of entertainment male sexuality is depicted in combat proficiency).

You basically picked out, seemingly, almost every piece of art with a female.
Page 13 is a generic shot of Joan of Arc, with the sun and a church behind her.
Page 43 isn't really questionable.
I agree on 51+54.
59 I disagree with. The entire piece makes it look like the force is moving--and she's caught in a snapshot.
60 I agree with, but that's just the bizarre posing.
61 I agree with, but the Kum Motorized Troops just have something "off" about them.
The Nomads I agree with, but p77 is of a Yu-Jing testing facility. I'd also say that 82 is okay except for the nipples poking through the body armor.
What are you saying is "cheesecake" about the art on p101? They're all sitting inside a VTOL of some sort, and she's wearing armor like the rest of the squad.
Again, what's going on with p107?
P124 I agree with.
The Scout with E/Mauler on 173 I'm iffy on.
176 I agree with.
185 I agree with.

You do realize though, that several of these were things that Slarg mentioned yeah?

Face it, you're wrong. Cheesecake isn't out of place in Infinity- it's part of what Infinity is all about. The only faction with nothing along those lines I can think of is Yu Jing (site's down so I can't look at their catalog).

Now, you're welcome to dislike that aspect of Infinity. Just like anyone is welcome to dislike any aspect of any game. But when you say the sexy characters don't fit the game, you are flat out wrong. They are part of the game. The game and miniature designers aren't wrong, you just don't like something they did. Move on with your life.

Yu Jing, PanOceania, Haqqislam, and Combined Army have practically nothing in the way of this. There's like one or two models at tops for each of these factions which fall under that category.

I've said nothing about them "not fitting the game". I've said they don't fit the ranges they've been put into.

Mannahnin wrote:Fabricator-General Mike, please fix your quote tags. You've got stuff I didn't write appearing as quoted of me.

Sorry about that, should be fixed =o]

Kanluwen wrote:I've said they don't fit the ranges they've been put into.

Or, to put it slightly differently:

You don't think they fit the ranges they've been put into.

No HBMC, they really just don't fit.
Unless you really are going to argue that this "fits" into the same range as this.
There's quite a few more within the Ariadna group alone which I could do these "comparisons" to, but when the range can make a fireman with a shotgun look like a professional soldier yet make a professional soldier look like pin-up art, something has gone awry.

Yeah... I've never looked at a model in 'that way' (ignoring the fact that I didn't know what 'Cheesecaking' was until today).

I mean, I never looked at any of my old Escher models and went "Gasp! This is to scandalous and doesn't fit at all!"

Nothing seems wrong to me. They're just models...

Absolutionis wrote:The posing is quite deliberate

Just because it's deliberate doesn't make it good.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah... I've never looked at a model in 'that way' (ignoring the fact that I didn't know what 'Cheesecaking' was until today).

I mean, I never looked at any of my old Escher models and went "Gasp! This is to scandalous and doesn't fit at all!"

Nothing seems wrong to me. They're just models...

And that's the point. They're just models, but for some reason rather than continue the aesthetics they put forth in the rest of the range--they disregard it for these pin-up style pieces.

If they want to do stuff like that, I'd rather they put it up in its own separate range and give an option to buy it or not. As it stands, the Dozer is an important part of an Ariadna list--yet it looks completely out of place in either Sectorial(which is saying a lot considering one of the Sectorials has troopers wearing kilts) armies and/or the "vanilla" Ariadna army.

Kanluwen wrote:No HBMC, they really just don't fit.
Unless you really are going to argue that this "fits" into the same range as this.
There's quite a few more within the Ariadna group alone which I could do these "comparisons" to, but when the range can make a fireman with a shotgun look like a professional soldier yet make a professional soldier look like pin-up art, something has gone awry.

Are the Wyches out of place? Are the Space Marines?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
If they want to do stuff like that, I'd rather they put it up in its own separate range and give an option to buy it or not. As it stands, the Dozer is an important part of an Ariadna list--yet it looks completely out of place in either Sectorial(which is saying a lot considering one of the Sectorials has troopers wearing kilts) armies and/or the "vanilla" Ariadna army.

Its probably been said before, but its not about realism, its about style. The "seductively intimidating" trope has been used for years in order to denote exceptional skill in the violent arts. The idea being that everyone else has to run for cover, but this man/woman can just do what she wants.

I don't think that's really fair, dogma. I'd say if you were going to do a fair comparison it would be more like mixing wyches with the Space Marines (if there were female Space Marines, anyway), so the males would be bulky and look like actual soldiers, but all the women are running around nearly naked for reasons never explained: stats and rules are the same, the background never mentions it, etc. The DE wyches belong to a different army and were given reasons for why they dress like that (reasons that some people might find sketchy but a reason nonetheless...also not sure why you linked the old models, the new ones don't look anywhere near as bad, proving [to me at least] that GW acknowledged that the old ones looked stupid even in context and tried to "fix" them...guess it helps the argument more though to use examples which are outdated and no longer applicable). Female Infinity models are meant to be variants of the males and be identical in every way, but are "sexed up" for no real reason, and it's made apparent in the side-by-sides you sometimes see in the gallery on their website: the males look like regular soldiers, whereas the females seem more interested in accentuating their tits and asses and "posing" with their guns rather than actually using them.

Fair enough if that's their "style", but I'm not a big fan of it. The few times they do a female model "right" I think it looks awesome (the female Hassassin Lasiq is my favorite Infinity model, and one of the few who isn't just posing with her fething gun and sticking her tits out, she's actually aiming the damn rifle like she intends to use it and is covered up like one would expect a soldier to be), but those models are few and far between, their interest clearly lies elsewhere.

Sidstyler wrote:The DE wyches belong to a different army and were given reasons for why they dress like that (reasons that some people might find sketchy but a reason nonetheless...

Why are the reasons provided less "sketchy" (I really hate that term.) than "We though people would like to look at attractive human bodies with minimal clothing."?

Sidstyler wrote:
...also not sure why you linked the old models, the new ones don't look anywhere near as bad, proving [to me at least] that GW acknowledged that the old ones looked stupid even in context and tried to "fix" them...guess it helps the argument more though to use examples which are outdated and no longer applicable).

The argument was that game X included model Y, and model Z, and that either model Y or model Z must be considered as exceptional in order for the position being argued against to be tenable. This is an argument which does not turn on proximity to the current date.

Putting that aside, one of the new models has a tentacle penis.

Sidstyler wrote:Female Infinity models are meant to be variants of the males and be identical in every way, but are "sexed up" for no real reason, and it's made apparent in the side-by-sides you sometimes see in the gallery on their website: the males look like regular soldiers, whereas the females seem more interested in accentuating their tits and asses and "posing" with their guns rather than actually using them.

Well, not identical, they are female after all.

I mean, do you object to women wearing skirts, while men in the same socioeconomic position wear pants?

dogma wrote:**Picture of Space Marines**

**Picture of Dark Eldar**

Are the Wyches out of place? Are the Space Marines?.

Kanluwen's examples are across the same army and the same era.
The time difference between the Loup-Garous and the Dozer is four months, and the Garous alone came out last month.
The difference between those Assault Marines and Wyches is measured in years.

Plus, Kan's example is from the same army/faction.

Absolutionis wrote:Kanluwen's examples are across the same army and the same era.

The army objection I can understand, though I disagree with it*, the era argument (as presented) is just nonsense though.

How many times has GW depicted a Space Marine wearing a thong?





*As it basically entails the argument "Cheesecake is fine in game X, so long as game X includes armies with no cheesecake." which has blatant problems.

I don't know how people can still be saying "X miniature doesn't fit into the range / game".....you're just a player, you own no part of the I.P. and have absolutely no creative input into the system or the setting. The I.P. belongs to the creative minds at Corvus Belli, what fits or doesn't fit is their decision.

That you think their choices are less then optimal is just your opinion as a customer, as I've said before, it carries no weight.

If I create a fantasy story / setting, and decide to have 12ft Androids being love slaves for 2 inch fairies then that's may call, you may think it's a great idea or you may hate it, but how can you say "it doesn't fit"? It fit's because it's my fantasy and I want it that way, don't like it....go seek your fix somewhere else.

dogma wrote:Why are the reasons provided less "sketchy" (I really hate that term.) than "We though people would like to look at attractive human bodies with minimal clothing."?

Because Infinity is more blatantly sexist. That's what bothers me the most about them, they objectify the gak out of women and act so shameless about it. It tells me that their idea of women is that they aren't meant to be combatants, that they exist only as "pretty bodies" and little else.

I concede that "We want them to look that way" is a good enough reason for them to make them like that, but I don't think it's wrong to criticize them for making that choice. I personally don't think they look good, I think they're pandering by doing stuff like this, and honestly I'm not going to be convinced otherwise. All that really means is I won't be playing Infinity or I'll only be buying the "good" models (like the Hassassin Lasiq I mentioned before), I don't really care if Infinity keeps making cheesecake or if other people like it, it's just not my thing and I don't expect them to change on my behalf.

dogma wrote:Putting that aside, one of the new models has a tentacle penis.

...wait, what? Can you elaborate please, which new model are you talking about?

dogma wrote:Well, not identical, they are female after all.

I mean, do you object to women wearing skirts, while men in the same socioeconomic position wear pants?

I was talking less about the obvious physical differences between men and women and more about game stats and equipment, where I imagine men and women probably don't differ too much to make a difference. In every game I've played, both on the tabletop or PC/console, gender doesn't make any difference in game terms and is purely cosmetic. Hence I assumed male and female models in Infinity would be no different and would simply be variants for the same unit, so that you wouldn't have a bunch of models in the exact same pose.

I don't object because women are free to choose to wear whatever they want: they aren't being "forced" to wear skirts or expose any more skin than they want to. But in my experience women usually have a little bit of dignity and use common sense when deciding what to wear before they go out. They don't have problems looking sexy and wearing clothes that accentuate that, but probably aren't going to be a fan of anything that blatantly puts them on display: pants that make their ass look good is one thing, walking around with a little strip of red cloth that barely covers their underwear and exposes half of their ass when they bend over slightly is something else. I've seen women wear cropped shirts that expose their midriff, but not many that wear a "shirt" so small it's only slightly larger than a bikini top and stops about right underneath their breasts. Based on all that I'd expect a woman going into a warzone would be less concerned with looking sexy and more with giving herself adequate protection and not being a walking target.

Ultimately it's all just my opinion. I'm not saying Infinity needs to be more realistic or that they need to change. I'll fully admit that Infinity probably isn't my game, although it's disappointing because there are a lot of good models, but a lot of cheesecake stuff sprinkled everywhere that I'm not fond of (for that matter I'm not even fond of DE wyches...the warrior models are so much better, the wyches would have to be considerably better than they are for me to feel like using them). I'm kind of limited on what factions I can play if I want a "super serious" army that doesn't have some token pin-up girl in it that's just there to look pretty while the men do all the work...I think Yu Jing and Haqqislam are probably the only two, and that's assuming that the cheesecake models aren't "auto-includes" that are vastly better than everything else (I wouldn't be surprised honestly, lol).

dogma wrote:*As it basically entails the argument "Cheesecake is fine in game X, so long as game X includes armies with no cheesecake." which has blatant problems.

I'm not saying that. I object to you labeling the DE wyches "cheesecake" in the first place, because if it is it's not very good cheesecake...the models are so ugly, even the new ones apparently, that many people have actually been put off doing an army of them because they aren't "sexy" enough, whereas Infinity's cheesecake models are apparently their best sellers (IIRC the Daktari is the highest selling figure isn't it?). There's also the fact that the kit is made up of almost as many male wyches as females and that they're all dressed the same, so it's not objectifying one more than the other: female wyches aren't wearing inexplicably less clothing just because they're female. They're also all posed so that they're running forwards with weapons brandished, not really in a pin-up style. Pretty much the only thing cheesecake about them is that some of them have exposed midriffs.

This thread might as well be "Cheescake: is it ever suitable?"

Or "Is sex-symbolism ever suitable in any situation ever?"

separating "Wargaming" from "anything and everything else," makes it seem as if it is something different and somehow "special/weird/odd/unique/whatever."

it is not, but continuing to treat it as such will only reinforce the image that wargaming is not "normal."