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Ronin-Sage wrote:Lasguns are based off of flashlight STCs. :p

It's not that, it's just that armor and weapons of everybody else in the universe are seriously overpowered.

as if flak armor and scraps of metal are ....

Brother Coa wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:Lasguns are based off of flashlight STCs. :p

It's not that, it's just that armor and weapons of everybody else in the universe are seriously overpowered.

Given that a race is not a chaos aligned.
1. Some xenos are way ancient beyond the mankind. they did fight wars since their bosses says so (Eldar VS Necrons). by the pre-slaaneshi Eldar. i believe they have weaker levy troops like what everyone believe IG is. but since after the fall. Eldar (and its dark brethren) became focused on combat quality. resulting in a basic troops wearing plate maile carapace armor.
2. Necrons simply have a very advanced science. simetimes far more advanced than Eldars and T'au.
3. Taus are caste-based society and might have fought Eldar before encountering humans. boths aren't so numerous compared to humans
4. Nids are simply built for kill.
5. Orks also ancient beyond human. but about them having terran tech. dunno if it is actually 'brainboyz' technology? but Ork folklore said that brainboyz are ancient beyond humans and had seen eldars fighting necrons before. however. it is said that Ork guns are wildly inaccurate and heavily unreliable.

But i don't know whether did the IG really modelled after ancient terra bureaucracy or is it a succcessor of 20th/21st century military powers?

Lone Cat wrote:
But i don't know whether did the IG really modelled after ancient terra bureaucracy or is it a succcessor of 20th/21st century military powers?

Imperial Guard is Human military in general. Strategies, uniforms, customs and all other things depends on the world in origin.

riplikash wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:So, is anyone going to answer my question about the malcador? If it's a tank from the ground up, or just a combine harvester with a howitzer glued onto it?

I answered you back on page 2.

We aren't told, but from the fluff it is an older, inferior design than the LR, heavier and with an unreliable engine.

So if i were to theorize...

My guess would be due to it's similarities to the LR and other STC tractor platforms it was pieced together from various existing STC tractor technologies and existing non-STC technologies by the Ad Mech. When the LR STC was discovered it was quickly phased out.

That's just guessing, obviously, since we are not told outright.

Aw damn. sorry, I didn't see your response there.
Thanks.

One thing I just realized, does anybody know if they've ever made a cut away diagram of the inside of a Leman Russ? For example, where the crew sits, where the engine is, how the ammo is stored, etc?

That might shed light into a lot of the things we've been debating in this thread. For example, maybe the tank is so tall and narrow because the engine is very tall and wouldn't fit in a lower built tank. Also, it might explain why the sides aren't sloped, the turret seems so small, why the tracks are laid out the way they are, and so on. Something we see as completely stupid might make a lot more sense if we can see why it was built a certain way.

For example, if you made the sides of the tanks sloped, it'd make it harder to fit sponsons onto it. It'd also throw in another problem in the fact of space inside the tank. You either keep the tank the same height it is, and then slope the armor out down to the tracks (which would effectively double the size of the tank, making it even easier to hit) or you keep it the same width, and slope the armor down to match it, which would make the tank appear tiny and extremely cramped. You could also try and find a balance in between, but you'd either be losing space inside the vehicle for ammo/crew/engine/etc, or you risk significantly enlarging the vehicle, which would make it harder to transport, as well as make it harder to use in an urban environment. And another thing would be that using sloped sides with the way the tracks are designed would be extremely difficult, since the tracks literally take up the whole side of the tank. You'd have maybe 2 feet of sloped armor before you reached the tracks, and unless you're going to try and angle out past the tracks, there isn't much you could do to mitigate that.

You'd basically have to completely redesign the vehicle in order to make even a couple of the suggestions people mentioned in this thread, and as we've already discussed, the AdMech aren't exactly keen on that sort of thing. Regardless of how "stupid" it is, this is just how the Imperium does things, and no matter how much we poke fun at it or hate it, I doubt its changing soon.

More on topic though, the Leman Russ to me seems like a fairly decent tank design, if only more for the "Jack of all trades, master of none" vibe that it has going on. Yeah, an Abrams or a t-90 might have a more sensible design to us with their specialized roles, but the Leman Russ literally has to be able to fight anything in the galaxy. One day you could be fighting tanks, the next fighting off a horde of space bugs, and the next trying to fight back the literal legions of hell. It may not be "The best" at any of those roles, but the fact it can fight all of these threats with minimal tweaks makes it more valuable to the IG than any specialist tank I'd imagine.

MrMoustaffa - Yes, they have: in FW IA 1. I think there's one of a Chimera in there too... Been a while since I've had a look though.

EDIT: Just checked; the cutaway is of a Vanquisher, possibly with a Mars Alpha hull, I can't tell...

riplikash wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I excluded super heavies due to rareity. When people see leman russes it is no big deal, if people see baneblades its the apocypse. Its because its not rare its the better tank then the super heavies.

I'm sorry, it just feels like you are trying to twist things to support your argument now. Now it is a better tank because it is more common? You must see you are in a circular logic loop now. Your original argument was it is common because it is the bast. Now you contend it is the best because it is common.

The AK-47 isn't the worlds best gun because it is the most common. Iron isn't a superior building material because it is more common. Conversly steel isn't a better building material than gold because it is more common. It is a better building material because it's better for that purpose.

The LR just has no claim on being 'the best tank in the galaxy'. It's good for it's purpose, and easy to produce, but there are certainly better tanks out there.

And again, apocalypse is a tabletop distinction and has nothing to do with rarity. Most battles in the Imperium are going to be significantly larger than anything ever reproduced in Apocolypse. It just doesn't make for a good miniature game.

While everyone says the Leman Russ is 'simple' nah it's still considerable complex compared to Ragnarok. which it's even more simpler.
I think it is the performance that judged its prolonged service in the Imperium. fairly adaptable (compact gasifier mounted directly to its diesel engine), sturdy, reliable and easy to maintain. the newer fluff said that Leman Russ has become more complex than what the early backstory says. but will you buy cheaply-made tanks that is later so expensive to maintain and difficult to operate?

i'd say that Leman Russ do have 'car style' steerings rather than tractor gears. the technology initially available to Tiger tank.

Lone Cat wrote:

ifStatement wrote:It's based on a real life tank.

The WW1 emhar mark 4...




...with a turret.

You'd think they might go with something a bit better than ww1 tech level in the 41st millennium, but like others have said you can't read into it too much. Even the likes of Jules Verne's science fiction falls apart under close scrutiny...and he actually tried.

while Rhomboid designs of Leman Russ is based on Brits Mk4
the actual design history was of that Leman Russ is modified from french Char B1 Bis which GW purchased a license much early on. modified to 'fit all kinda warfare'
the 'stocky' aesthetic means that it can traverse through a narrow alley. something bigger tanks like Baneblade can't.

Personally I DISLIKE Leman Russ design. the IA books cited that Leman Russ has coilspring suspension system. i believe it works with hydraulic control systems.
the new fluff says that Lenman Russ is more complex than the older ones. there's even more simpler tanks once used by Kriegsche. the Panzerkampfwagen Ragnarok.

http://homepage.mac.com/james.clay/iblog/B233824576/C1864165285/E1807570321/index.html hit the link to see closeups.

I see more similarities in the mark 4 than just the rhomboid shape to be honest. It's basically the entire design minus the turret.

Look! I've found this!



this is 'Female Mk4' with turret. the main gun might be either 37mm or 47mm cannon. surely made-up for Rise of Nations. but did the team really a fan of 40k?

The image is broken for me I can't see it.

same tank in the link you've said it's broken.


See? the turret itself is roughtly either Cromwell or Churchill.

Tibbsy wrote:MrMoustaffa - Yes, they have: in FW IA 1. I think there's one of a Chimera in there too... Been a while since I've had a look though.

EDIT: Just checked; the cutaway is of a Vanquisher, possibly with a Mars Alpha hull, I can't tell...

Yeah and 200+ mm diameter rounds. Remind me how they cram 40 of those into the hull again?

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Tibbsy wrote:MrMoustaffa - Yes, they have: in FW IA 1. I think there's one of a Chimera in there too... Been a while since I've had a look though.

EDIT: Just checked; the cutaway is of a Vanquisher, possibly with a Mars Alpha hull, I can't tell...

Yeah and 200+ mm diameter rounds. Remind me how they cram 40 of those into the hull again?

The answer is the model isn't correctly proportioned.

an actual true scale LRBT would be quite abit longer and wider with a larger turret. The weapons would remain the same size and appear to shrink alongside the model.

BeRzErKeR wrote:[Actually, my argument about the Leman Russ is just a wee bit more complex. As it stands, the Leman Russ does a BUNCH of things pretty well; it strikes a compromise between maneuverability and durability which is weighted towards maneuverability. With the high tracks, it can probably traverse much steeper slopes than modern MBTs can; the design seems to indicate that it is amphibious, which would open up a lot of tactical options in usage, and because it's relatively narrow it can maneuver effectively in tighter spaces.

But the most important bit isn't actually tactical, it's logistical. Logistics are the real limiting factor for the Imperium; yes, they've got ludicrous amounts of resources, but they have to get all those resources to the battlefield after they've been turned into tanks and fuel and ammo, and the transport stage is where the crunch hits them. The Leman Russ is, essentially, a partial solution to the massive problem of conducting armored warfare across interstellar distances. If the Imperium altered the design of the Leman Russ to be a low-slung, slope-armored, purpose-built modern-style MBT, that would make it unable to traverse hills and trenches, remove its swimming ability, and sharply limit maneuverability in close quarters. That would mean that they'd need two or three more, different purpose-built vehicles - specialist AAVs, specialist trench-crossing vehicles, specialist high-altitude combat vehicles, etc - to fulfill the roles that the Leman Russ fulfills now.

More politics than logistics. One reason we see more high tech stuff in the Heresy era vs modern is that there was someone higher up on the pole to force the AdMech (and others) to actually give troops decent gear. Without the emperor or the Primarchs or the Sigilite around there is almost noone who can force the AdMech to go against what they want - that isn't to say the AdMech is in control, but that there is a balance of power and everyone is about evenly matched (even the Inquisition is limited by this.) Bureacracy is another factor, the way the Munitorum is handled and operates dictates a great deal of the logistics as well (which hedges both towards conservatism and pessimism.) again noone around to force them to do otherwise means they'll follow their own ideas, which creates problems as it filters down. again politics. If not for that they might actually have more AG vehicles (At least iwht the higher tier forces.)

That said, the lack of standardization is what forces (and contributes) to all the official and unofficial modifications to vehicle chassis. They're endlessly modifying or remodifying vheicles to create new ones, toc reate stopgaps, or whatever. Look at all the Macharius/Malcaodr variants, or the wya they stick titan weapons on baneblade hulls as Shadowsword stopgaps and so on. It's not just that they prefer 'lower tech' solutions to simplify their lgoistical and maintenance needs (or optimize for efficiency - again remember Leman Russes have something like 3x the operational range of an Abrams, despite being half the speed typically.) they also favor versatility. The hull that one day was a Vanquisher that got destroyed might be converted to mount two lascannons, or a battle cannon, or twin autocannons in another iteration. Or if they need it to fill another role.

There's also the Forge World Trojans which are a prime example of 'adaptability' of hulls.

Another factor at play is the same one that prevents the Imperium from standardizing troop training ot any degree (EG millions of worlds each with their own traditions and military doctrine) also dictates the sheer versatility of the Russ - each world is going to outfit or design their tanks to operate their own ways. The Krieg or Baran Siegemasters don't operate their battle tanks the way the Narmenian, Cadian, or Pardus tank regiments do, so they'll be equipped, armed, and operate differently. So you can have tanks that move faster and are much more mobile (and better at tank killing) than the ones other regiments might do. Whether they can maintain it that way is another story. (If they stay within the vicinity of their home sector/subsector I suspect its not a problem. If they send them to another segmentum logistics becomes a problem.) The same is true of most other IG equipment including lasguns really.

I would also note there's a Gav Thorpe short story that shows you can illegally modify a Russ to be much faster (I figure its like the souped-up engines for the Salamanders. Funny enough the old Chapter Approved vehicle design rules allowed for that sort of thing I think...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Tibbsy wrote:MrMoustaffa - Yes, they have: in FW IA 1. I think there's one of a Chimera in there too... Been a while since I've had a look though.

EDIT: Just checked; the cutaway is of a Vanquisher, possibly with a Mars Alpha hull, I can't tell...

Yeah and 200+ mm diameter rounds. Remind me how they cram 40 of those into the hull again?

The answer is the model isn't correctly proportioned.

an actual true scale LRBT would be quite abit longer and wider with a larger turret. The weapons would remain the same size and appear to shrink alongside the model.

Yeah I know. Its even omre hialrious in that the artwork isn't even quite consistent with each other. I've scaled the barrels and such to different diameters (some of which as I said are big enough I could crawl inside the barrel.)

I just chalk it up to the veresatility thing. There probably are Russes with that huge of guns for some reason (Demolisher stopgap maybe, or maybe its meant to fire a really big shaped charge or some rocket assited ammo like the M551 Sheridan. The Barrel does look like some Leman Russ barrels, after all.... I think the Russians had a rocket propelled anti tank round fired from the gun as well.

The only problem i had with the leman russ is its high profile. Now in some cases this has annoyed me especially when you have pictures of leman russes hidden in ambush lile in spearhead. You cant hide a tank that high in ambush it doesnt work. Everything else about it i do like about it it reminds me of a mobile fortress.

Its the baneblade i do have a problem with for the fact it has to many guns to my likeing. If we went with hostory tanks designed like land dreadnoughts look good on paper but in battle are absolutely useless. Look at a T-28 or T-35 that the russians came up with. They looked good but they couldnt carry all that ammo

Of course when the landscape around you is full of huge pieces of terrain that easily dwarfs your vehicles then you will probably have plenty of cover for even the LRBT.

Hab spires and such will provide plenty of cover, especially if they have been damaged by a bombardment.

Thick forests will provide you cover from ground level easily enough. The air will be a vulnerability, but thats what the Imperial Navy is for. Achieve air superiority and your vertical visability isn't as important.



and again, Baneblades are victims of proportional error. Make them larger and keep the weapons the same size and you will have a more managable storage capacity.

and the Baneblades that have energy weapons will simply draw from the reactor and not have storage issues for that weapons ammo. And Baneblades would probably get resupplied quite frequently. Just drive to a secure landing zone, drop some ammo by Valk and get rolling again. It could possably be even as simple as opening a hatch on the top of the tank and have the Valk just drop the ammo right into the magazine, no getting out or anything.


I believe a true scale baneblade would be around 2 ft long and almost as wide.

Grey Templar wrote:I believe a true scale baneblade would be around 2 ft long and almost as wide.

Quick, correct that before someone quotes it. ...oh wait.

What?

Oh you actually meant 2ft? Dude that's almost this sort of scale... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_288 It takes a weeks planning to move.

Vehicle height is an advantage and a disadvantage because of line of sight. It makes you easier to spot by the enemy.. but they are also easier to spot. Also given that its been established in several novels (Honour Guard and Mercy Run short story from Planetkill) that auspex have detection ranges of 15-20 km on the ground (OVER the horizon, in other words) makes the ability to hide effectively more difficult (At least against other Imperial type targets.) Weapons which rely on line of sight (lascannon for example) can also be limited by this - cannon at least could indirect fire in theory.

You also cannot reduce your height or profile without making changes in other dimensions. Your tank becomes shorter.. it also becomes longer and wider, which means that from overhead its a MUCH bigger target. A bigger target is also easier to hit in other ways (fighters, orbital bombardment, etc.) If your enemy is capable of indirect firing and can damage you, he might also have an easier time hitting you from above (especially since overhead armor might be thinner than on the front or sides.)

The M1 Abrams can get away with much of this because it does not fight alone, and it often fights in terrain where the US has ground, air, and naval superiority and with a great deal of assets around to do detection fro them (satellites, scouts/spotters, recon vehicles, etc.) to compensate for any flaws in the tradeoffs it makes.

And as noted before, it has any number of tradeoffs. Again I was looking at the LR Demolisher thing from Inferno -


Interesting as well it mentions the Demolisher having 'passive night sight, Laser warning system, and laser range finder.' Demolisher cannon also has an automatic loader/ejection system. Engine is an 840 hp,V-12 (12 cylinder) air cooled multifuel engine that can run on Gasoline, Benzene, Kerosene, or 'other'

In this iteration it has an 250 km 'on road' range, and a 100 km 'off road' range. If we play that into the Defixio (which is off road) example you can get a 3,750 km range 'on road' It also mentions that with optional 100 litre tanks you get an extra 100 km range, which would imply a 1 km per litre fuel efficiency. An M1 Abrams by contrast carries some 1900 litres and has a range of 426 km, which means it expends 4.5 litres per km.

The Defixio Russ, btw, was a Exterminator run by (IIRC) the Salvar Chem Dogs.. so we're not exactly talking high end. It also shows how adaptable/modifiable the thing is (the Inferno demolisher is 68-70 tonnes loaded, incidentally.)

ifStatement wrote:Oh you actually meant 2ft? Dude that's almost this sort of scale... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_288 It takes a weeks planning to move.

Just compare my estimate to an actual Guardsmen. Its big, but not as big as that thing you just showed.

That thing also isn't potentially nuclear powered.

heh. I forgot about that. They have nuclear powered chimeras, so they could have some nuclear powered Russes. They can also stick MIUs, powered cannon (of some kind.. battle cannon at that) and some fairly sophisticated targeting on board.

Funny enough if you look through the IA1 stats for Leman Russ hull variants you get some that are remarkably fast. For example the Mars pattern hull used in the Destroyer tank Hunter is 52 tonnes (to the regular Russes' 60 tonnes) but is a 50 kph on road and 36 kph off road (to 35 kph and 21 kph). With a souped up engine you could get vastly different performance. (the Executioner plasma weapon was 18 kph off road in IA1, while in Honour guard it was 30 kph off road)

Same thing for Basilisks. In IA1 the Basiliks was 40 tons and pulled 35 kph on road and 21 kph off road, whilst in the Inferno entry for the Basilisk (open topped) it pulled 60 kph on road and 45 kph on road. It also had a multi-fuel engine that could run on "Gasoline, Kerosene, alcohol, charcoal, vegetative matter, other."

And of course there was the 70 kph Leman Russ from 2nd edition.

I havn't heard of nuclear powered Chimeras, although its possable.


Thats the beauty of the STC system. You can actually tell it what fuel sources you have avaliable and it will give you instructions for different engines depending on your needs.

Most non-super heavies will use Multi-fuel(Biofuels/synthetic fuels/alcohol...) or Promethium(Petroleum) while Super heavies will use Fusion reactors. Landraiders and Dreadnoughts use small scale fusion reactors not avaliable for anything else.

Since we are talking about STCs, what are they exactly? Are they like mini-factories, or just really sophisticated software?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Since we are talking about STCs, what are they exactly? Are they like mini-factories, or just really sophisticated software?

Ancient archaic blueprint/machines from the dark age of technology. The AdMech sees them as holy and is highest heresy to alter the designs.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Since we are talking about STCs, what are they exactly? Are they like mini-factories, or just really sophisticated software?

Ancient archaic blueprint/machines from the dark age of technology. The AdMech sees them as holy and is highest heresy to alter the designs.

Yes, I know that, but what do they look like? Do they come on a DvD, floppy disk, what?
And how are they used? How does one get it to construct whatever it is meant to construct?

A little bit of both.


The actual STC itself is just a computer holding every single bit of technology mankind has ever created, from battletanks to silverware to fusion generators. They were placed aboard human colony ships(when they were multi-generational crafts traveling at sub-light speeds) to give a new colony access to all the technology they could ever possably need.

You would tell it what you need and what resources you have and it would print out how to make something that would do what you need. You could say "I need a tractor, but it needs to be Nuclear powered because we don't have any Hydrocarbons for fuel" and the STC would print something out for you.

Many STCs were however hooked up to Nano-replicators which could produce the items you needed on the spot.


over time, the STCs were neglected/fell into disrepair because mankind essentially forgot how stuff worked(because they didn't need to know how, the STC just did everything for them)

Many STC computers had their memories corrupted so they have incomplete data or are stuck printing out whatever the last blueprint they were tasked to make.

In the modern time period, STC can mean both the actual computer and the blueprints it makes. The Ad Mech's holy grail would be to find an STC computer that is still completely functional. it would give back everything mankind has lost over the millenia.

Grey Templar wrote:A little bit of both.


The actual STC itself is just a computer holding every single bit of technology mankind has ever created, from battletanks to silverware to fusion generators. They were placed aboard human colony ships(when they were multi-generational crafts traveling at sub-light speeds) to give a new colony access to all the technology they could ever possably need.

You would tell it what you need and what resources you have and it would print out how to make something that would do what you need. You could say "I need a tractor, but it needs to be Nuclear powered because we don't have any Hydrocarbons for fuel" and the STC would print something out for you.

Many STCs were however hooked up to Nano-replicators which could produce the items you needed on the spot.


over time, the STCs were neglected/fell into disrepair because mankind essentially forgot how stuff worked(because they didn't need to know how, the STC just did everything for them)

Many STC computers had their memories corrupted so they have incomplete data or are stuck printing out whatever the last blueprint they were tasked to make.

In the modern time period, STC can mean both the actual computer and the blueprints it makes. The Ad Mech's holy grail would be to find an STC computer that is still completely functional. it would give back everything mankind has lost over the millenia.

Oh...so its like a very cool laptop crossed with a GECK, that could be glued to a 3d printer?

Exactly, and if they ever find one thats working evry single Xenos species is ed