Leman Russ- Worst tank design ever

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**Alexzandvar**

Grey Templar wrote:Exactly, and if they ever find one thats working evry single Xenos species is ed

Yep, as it's been explained it's GW ace in the hole if the Emprah ever died to keep the IoM afloat.

**Lone Cat**

Connor MacLeod wrote:Vehicle height is an advantage and a disadvantage because of line of sight. It makes you easier to spot by the enemy.. but they are also easier to spot. Also given that its been established in several novels (Honour Guard and Mercy Run short story from Planetkill) that auspex have detection ranges of 15-20 km on the ground (OVER the horizon, in other words) makes the ability to hide effectively more difficult (At least against other Imperial type targets.) Weapons which rely on line of sight (lascannon for example) can also be limited by this - cannon at least could indirect fire in theory.

You also cannot reduce your height or profile without making changes in other dimensions. Your tank becomes shorter.. it also becomes longer and wider, which means that from overhead its a MUCH bigger target. A bigger target is also easier to hit in other ways (fighters, orbital bombardment, etc.) If your enemy is capable of indirect firing and can damage you, he might also have an easier time hitting you from above (especially since overhead armor might be thinner than on the front or sides.)

The M1 Abrams can get away with much of this because it does not fight alone, and it often fights in terrain where the US has ground, air, and naval superiority and with a great deal of assets around to do detection fro them (satellites, scouts/spotters, recon vehicles, etc.) to compensate for any flaws in the tradeoffs it makes.

And as noted before, it has any number of tradeoffs. Again I was looking at the LR Demolisher thing from Inferno -

Interesting as well it mentions the Demolisher having 'passive night sight, Laser warning system, and laser range finder.' Demolisher cannon also has an automatic loader/ejection system. Engine is an 840 hp,V-12 (12 cylinder) air cooled multifuel engine that can run on Gasoline, Benzene, Kerosene, or 'other'

In this iteration it has an 250 km 'on road' range, and a 100 km 'off road' range. If we play that into the Defixio (which is off road) example you can get a 3,750 km range 'on road' It also mentions that with optional 100 litre tanks you get an extra 100 km range, which would imply a 1 km per litre fuel efficiency. An M1 Abrams by contrast carries some 1900 litres and has a range of 426 km, which means it expends 4.5 litres per km.

The Defixio Russ, btw, was a Exterminator run by (IIRC) the Salvar Chem Dogs.. so we're not exactly talking high end. It also shows how adaptable/modifiable the thing is (the Inferno demolisher is 68-70 tonnes loaded, incidentally.)

1. some other members say no Leman Russ or Demolishers uses autoloading systems since it's too complex.
2. the 'multifuel' engine is actually based on Rudolf Diesel's works. in fact. it is internal combustion engine linked with gassifier. ones that is small enough to fit in a bonnet, but still large enough to be functional.

**KingDeath**

Grey Templar wrote:Exactly, and if they ever find one thats working evry single Xenos species is ed

Except the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and the Necrons which will still have vastly superior technology.
In fact the entire STC = superawesome tech idea is somewhat flawed. The Imperium already posesses many advanced technologies from the Dark Age of Technology and while potent, they generaly lag somwhat behind those of the elder species ( that is, Necrons, Eldar and Dark Eldar ). Since ork tech is largely based on scavenging it is also unlikely that a more advanced technology will provide a lasting advantage against them.
Of course, with a fully intact STC one has to wonder if the Scions of Mars would still have a need for the Imperium, especialy since many of them don't even recognise the Carriongod as their Omnisiah...

**GentlemanGuy**

I like the german method of dispensing with the turret and mounting a bigger gun in the hull (stugs) the imperium have the destroyer tank hunter the vindicator and the thunderer siege gun :-) wouldnt it be great to see more of these kind of assault gun platforms

**Lone Cat**

KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Exactly, and if they ever find one thats working evry single Xenos species is ed

Except the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and the Necrons which will still have vastly superior technology.
In fact the entire STC = superawesome tech idea is somewhat flawed. The Imperium already posesses many advanced technologies from the Dark Age of Technology and while potent, they generaly lag somwhat behind those of the elder species ( that is, Necrons, Eldar and Dark Eldar ). Since ork tech is largely based on scavenging it is also unlikely that a more advanced technology will provide a lasting advantage against them.
Of course, with a fully intact STC one has to wonder if the Scions of Mars would still have a need for the Imperium, especialy since many of them don't even recognise the Carriongod as their Omnisiah...

1. Orks being scavengers yes. but some other members cited that the Orks did also inherit their very own technology from the ancient ancestral (and now extinct) race they called Brainboyz (ork folklore says that brainboyz taught orks the technology of the 20th-21st centuries ... if they don't already have such knowhow, how do the Orks get cannons, shootas and sluggas... all weapons that uses smokeless powder as its propellant and chemistry to make explosives? how do the orks create percussion caps, ammunition cartridges and automatic firearms? how do the orks create and operate automotives that have rubber wheels and powered by combustion engine? ... if those orks fought early human settlers with pre-gunpowder weapons. ork problems will sure to be dealth with long before the Horus Heresy.
2. IS there any books saying that the Emperor himself was once worked for the creation of STC? the backstory only says that a man who's now known as The Emperor was once (or many times) scientists, engineers, inventers. or even a lowly crew to those men of sciences.
3. if that happens. The Admech will blackmail the Imperium even harder. they will sure to replace the not-so poppular Administratum civil servants, and the repressive Ecclessiarchy.
by then the early Imperial governments are in need of warp drives. remember that by then, everyone in the Terra almost forgot how to. only martians (which by then worshipped the Omnisshiah) have (and used) this technology by the time of Arkhan Land's expedition.

**Viersche**

Well as long as it fits into the WH40k universe and looks gromdark, i doubt they'd care if the design was combat effective or not

**Grey Templar**

KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Exactly, and if they ever find one thats working evry single Xenos species is ed

Except the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and the Necrons which will still have vastly superior technology.
In fact the entire STC = superawesome tech idea is somewhat flawed. The Imperium already posesses many advanced technologies from the Dark Age of Technology and while potent, they generaly lag somwhat behind those of the elder species ( that is, Necrons, Eldar and Dark Eldar ). Since ork tech is largely based on scavenging it is also unlikely that a more advanced technology will provide a lasting advantage against them.
Of course, with a fully intact STC one has to wonder if the Scions of Mars would still have a need for the Imperium, especialy since many of them don't even recognise the Carriongod as their Omnisiah...

The vast majority of the Ad Mech does venerate the Emperor as the Omnissiah. And those that don't still recognise that they need the Imperium.

And Mankinds technology at its height did rival the Eldar, who were only superior in psychic abilities.

Only the Necrons havn't ever been rivaled.

**mullet_steve**

I don't want to push this topic any further from the original track but. The technology the IoM uses is fauling apart because they still haven't figured out how to fix stuff or build new stuff. A functioning STC would be able to tech them how to build a machine to tech them how to build and or fix everything.

Space marines would rather have their techs paint a symbol on the side of a tank than weld a crack in the armour plates.... and they are well educated and actualy know stuff imagine the superstition and nonsense the rest of the IoM believe

**Grey Templar**

That is a severly overexaggerated depiction.

They would weld the crack back together, or more likely drag the tank back and strip it for parts and melt down what wasn't repairable.

**mullet_steve**

I pulled that example form one of the original inquisitor novels actualy, the squat is traveling around with some space marines and points out to a terminator that the armour is cracked on his land raider and offers to weld it and gets told to paint a rune of protection on it...

here they are republished by black libraries it has to be concidered GW canon?
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/Search-Results.html?filter_type=6&filter_Action=0&filter_name=SearchTerm&submit=GO&filter_value=draco

**Grey Templar**

Considering there is a squat in it, that would make it no longer valid canon.

**mullet_steve**

they're still selling it.

**Randomonioum**

-snip-

**Zakiriel**

Stug = Ork Lungbursta

There was also some epic 40k (?) campaign game way back in the day that was basically the eastern front with the map upside down.
The IG was the Wehrmacht and the marines where the Waffen SS and the Orks were the Russians as far as positions on the map went.

**Soladrin**

Grey Templar wrote:Considering there is a squat in it, that would make it no longer valid canon.

Wasn't it actually edited for the re-release? I remember hearing something like that.

edit: just read the extract, apparently not.

**Vaktathi**

Grey Templar wrote:Considering there is a squat in it, that would make it no longer valid canon.

Normally I'd agree, but...

mullet_steve wrote:they're still selling it.

This. It's still a book on active sale and circulation, unlike just about anything else from it's era or earlier. That implies at least something...

**Psienesis**

It's Black Library, they're not adverse to money.

Also, there's no canon in Warhammer. There's also no Squats.

**KamikazeCanuck**

In that book they often mention that Squats are just abhumans. Abhumans obviously do exist still and a squatish breed of abhumans in 40K is actually more likely than not. For me, the presense of a short guy with a beard does not invalidate The Inquisition War.

**Connor MacLeod**

mullet_steve wrote:I pulled that example form one of the original inquisitor novels actualy, the squat is traveling around with some space marines and points out to a terminator that the armour is cracked on his land raider and offers to weld it and gets told to paint a rune of protection on it...

here they are republished by black libraries it has to be concidered GW canon?
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/Search-Results.html?filter_type=6&filter_Action=0&filter_name=SearchTerm&submit=GO&filter_value=draco

You're actually thinking of the 'Warped Stars' short story by Ian Watson. Notable for a Space Marine Chapter who does not appear to use any bolters. It was included because it had Grimm the Squat in it, but I should note that in my copy of the 'Deathwing' Analogy they apparently changed it so he's a techpriest named Grill. :lol: Who befirends an Ogryn. I preferred it the original way, really.

**mullet_steve**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
mullet_steve wrote:I pulled that example form one of the original inquisitor novels actualy, the squat is traveling around with some space marines and points out to a terminator that the armour is cracked on his land raider and offers to weld it and gets told to paint a rune of protection on it...

here they are republished by black libraries it has to be concidered GW canon?
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/Search-Results.html?filter_type=6&filter_Action=0&filter_name=SearchTerm&submit=GO&filter_value=draco

You're actually thinking of the 'Warped Stars' short story by Ian Watson. Notable for a Space Marine Chapter who does not appear to use any bolters. It was included because it had Grimm the Squat in it, but I should note that in my copy of the 'Deathwing' Analogy they apparently changed it so he's a techpriest named Grill. :lol: Who befirends an Ogryn. I preferred it the original way, really.

it was ages ago but I thought the reference came from those books....

**chyron**

Zakiriel wrote:Stug = Ork Lungbursta

Well, why mention StuG if original design for Stugs was soviet AT-1 (1935)?

And french designs of WWI is much more ORKISH anyway

**Lone Cat**

Zakiriel wrote:Stug = Ork Lungbursta

There was also some epic 40k (?) campaign game way back in the day that was basically the eastern front with the map upside down.
The IG was the Wehrmacht and the marines where the Waffen SS and the Orks were the Russians as far as positions on the map went.

is it 2nd War of Armageddon? by then it was I.G. commanded by Commissar Yarrick (not sure if GW named them 'Steel Legion' yet? but in the 1st release of the 2nd war of Armageddon . no Steel Legions miniatures released YET! but Yarrick had already been released!) and Marines (led by Dante, the oldest living Space Marines) VS ORKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKS! led by Ghazkull Mc. Uruk Traka.

Got it! is this the GW campaigns you're referring to?

**Shenloanne**

infinite_array wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Welcome to 40k. It is a science-fiction hobby where realism was left at the door.

*Points at*
-Elves in SPAAAAAAAAAACE
-Orcs in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
-Daemons in SPAAAAAAAAAACE
-The fact that swords are still considered viable in combat
-Space Marines that can't move in their armor
-Every single thing basically forever in 40k

And we get hung up on the Russ?

And you forgot Mr Curze....space BATMAN!

**Castiel**

The Leman Russ has the strongest armour known to man: plot armour.

**Zakiriel**

Yes I think that was the one.

**GentlemanGuy**

Yay stug pictures XD stugs, jagdpanzers, jagdpanthers and jagdtigers look awesome to me and i reckon they're a better alternate way to make anti tank vehicles (the russians did the same while the americans just mounted guns in open turrets onto sherman chassis). This is why i like imperial guard self propelled guns like the destroyer and the basilisk they look good to me :-)

Back on topic the Leman Russ is allright it's like the sherman with it's high sillourette (is that right?) combined with a british mk v tank from ww1 with its sponson and shape..........hang on a second i think i figured out what its based on. The tank from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusades. Thats a ww1 tank thats had a turret added to it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yay stug pictures XD stugs, jagdpanzers, jagdpanthers and jagdtigers look awesome to me and i reckon they're a better alternate way to make anti tank vehicles (the russians did the same while the americans just mounted guns in open turrets onto sherman chassis). This is why i like imperial guard self propelled guns like the destroyer and the basilisk they look good to me :-)

Back on topic the Leman Russ is allright it's like the sherman with it's high sillourette (is that right?) combined with a british mk v tank from ww1 with its sponson and shape..........hang on a second i think i figured out what its based on. The tank from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusades. Thats a ww1 tank thats had a turret added to it.

**Ribon Fox**

GentlemanGuy wrote:Yay stug pictures XD stugs, jagdpanzers, jagdpanthers and jagdtigers look awesome to me and i reckon they're a better alternate way to make anti tank vehicles (the russians did the same while the americans just mounted guns in open turrets onto sherman chassis). This is why i like imperial guard self propelled guns like the destroyer and the basilisk they look good to me :-)

Back on topic the Leman Russ is allright it's like the sherman with it's high sillourette (is that right?) combined with a british mk v tank from ww1 with its sponson and shape..........hang on a second i think i figured out what its based on. The tank from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusades. Thats a ww1 tank thats had a turret added to it.

I get to post this

Spoiler:

Would make a good LRBT table setpiece

Spoiler:

**Grey Templar**

I believe there were 2 kinds of MkIVs

Female tanks with a bunch of MGs and Males with some Artillery pieces in Sponsons.n I don't find any mentions of Turrets in the Male version.

The one with MGs is what is known about generally because thats what got air time. That and there were very few enemy tanks as the Germans only built like 20.

**Lone Cat**

Grey Templar wrote:I believe there were 2 kinds of MkIVs

Female tanks with a bunch of MGs and Males with some Artillery pieces in Sponsons.n I don't find any mentions of Turrets in the Male version.

The one with MGs is what is known about generally because thats what got air time. That and there were very few enemy tanks as the Germans only built like 20.

place a 75mm turret on top of Female mark four and mount an MG in a bow. at the shotgun seat. and improve suspensions. and you've got Leman Russ.

**deotrims 16th**

Firstly, its a trench warfare tank and so it has to be tall with tracks in that shape to go over trenches, they could have made it a bit longer, instead of taller, but that would mean slower turning. Try traversing trenches with a modern day MBT, it doesn't work.

When a tank has to be tall there isn't much you can do to slope the sides, no modern tank does that as it would involve making the tank heavier.

The turret is that size because don't make a turret bigger than you have to, and that's what they did. It has an auto loader, why imperial battleships don't I don't know, but that's another question. Look at T-72, much smaller turrets than other tanks because they have an autoloader.

If you think those are skinny tracks look at al WWII tanks excluding German, KV and late T-34 and then the Leman Russ' look massive.

The stuff on the front, to have a hull mounted weapon the mini turret thing is needed, but you are right about the other stuff at the front.

Lastly, Its not an AFV, those are things like the Abrams 2 Armoured troop carriers, with a meh gun, or in 40k a chimera, whereas an IFV is a troop carrier, with a machine gun on top at best, like a rhino. A Leman Russ is an MBT, a main battle tank like the GLORIOUS challenger 2.