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As an amateur student of armored warfare this has been bugging me for a very long time now.

The leman russ is possibly one of the worst designed AFV's I've ever seen.

Its incredibly high, meaning it would be quite difficult to go hull down in it. The sides are flat and huge, you would hardly bounce anyhting. Gun depression would be awful due to the location of the hull mount. The turret is tiny, barely looks like it would fit the commander. Tracks also are too thin, meaning poor cross country performance. To top it all off, there's too much "stuff" on the hull front, leading to shot traps.

So, how in gods name did anyone think this was a good design?

Welcome to 40k. It is a science-fiction hobby where realism was left at the door.

DarknessEternal wrote:Welcome to 40k. It is a science-fiction hobby where realism was left at the door.

*Points at*
-Elves in SPAAAAAAAAAACE
-Orcs in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
-Daemons in SPAAAAAAAAAACE
-The fact that swords are still considered viable in combat
-Space Marines that can't move in their armor
-Every single thing basically forever in 40k

And we get hung up on the Russ?

Leman Russ Battle Tank is protected by grimdark. That is all.

Warhammer 40k. The only place where there can be evil elves and demons and dare I say it...Squats? Running around and one thing we can't even fathom is the horrible design of the Leman Russ.

I fall guilty of worrying about something that doesn't make sense in the GRIMDARK sometimes too.

Warhammer 40,000: Where World War I tactics and vehicle designs reign supreme, despite being the worst tactics and vehicle designs ever. In the history of the planet Earth.

It's based on a real life tank.

The WW1 emhar mark 4...




...with a turret.

You'd think they might go with something a bit better than ww1 tech level in the 41st millennium, but like others have said you can't read into it too much. Even the likes of Jules Verne's science fiction falls apart under close scrutiny...and he actually tried.

I love when realism is discussed. Better as Tzeentch as I'm sure as God of Lore etc he'd know!

I'm not sure what you're using for a reference, a model? Actual text from a fluff source? A picture?

Fluff wise LR's outlast most of the other vehicles in whatever army/unit they happen to be in. So, worst AFV ever designed? Clearly not.

As for practical use? Seeing as how the engine can run off of wood if need be, it's point-defense weapons are small-rocket-launching machine guns, and it's capable of use a giant laser to kill other tanks...I can't really comment.

In comparison to say a Merkava or Abrams, or even a T-90 I can agree with you that the profile is odd. Then again, a LR is a jack of all trades. It has close-support variants in the Demolisher and Eradicator. Anti-armor with the standard LBRT and Vanquisher. Purely anti-personnel with the auto cannon variant and Punisher.

Also, check the new models for the LR's. They're flatter and wider. Much more akin to a modern day tank than it's previous incarnation.

Check the "digital sculpting blog" link in my sig for my take on what the leman russ should have looked like (WIP).

Frankenberry wrote:I'm not sure what you're using for a reference, a model? Actual text from a fluff source? A picture?

Fluff wise LR's outlast most of the other vehicles in whatever army/unit they happen to be in. So, worst AFV ever designed? Clearly not.

As for practical use? Seeing as how the engine can run off of wood if need be, it's point-defense weapons are small-rocket-launching machine guns, and it's capable of use a giant laser to kill other tanks...I can't really comment.

In comparison to say a Merkava or Abrams, or even a T-90 I can agree with you that the profile is odd. Then again, a LR is a jack of all trades. It has close-support variants in the Demolisher and Eradicator. Anti-armor with the standard LBRT and Vanquisher. Purely anti-personnel with the auto cannon variant and Punisher.

Also, check the new models for the LR's. They're flatter and wider. Much more akin to a modern day tank than it's previous incarnation.

He's commenting on how bad the design is, and that there is a reason that design is no longer used in modern day militaries. It sucks. Hard. Not because it looks wierd, but because of how flat and square it is.

Take a solid square of steel to a shooting range. Shoot it. The bullet will shatter against it, but notice how the plate took the brunt of the force. Every single ounce of energy went straight into the steel plate.

Now take another plate with the exact same thickness and other dimensions, but fold it into a V-shape. Set the V up so that the bottom sharp edge is facing you. Now shoot it. The bullet will either strike the sharp edge (splitting in half and doing no damage, dispersing energy along the edge of the V), or it will strike the top or bottom and be deflected up or down, with minimal energy striking the steel.

That is why the LR sucks and why the Imperium is dumb for having it, even if it is made of the best materials in existence. Yeah, it works, but it could be so muc better.

EmilCrane wrote:The turret is tiny, barely looks like it would fit the commander.

Let alone the breech, or gunner. The gun itself is too large to logically fit the turret (considering it is only supposed to be the size of a regular modern tank main gun (120mm or so).

The forces generated by recoil on that gun would shear the turret off the hull mount.

Out of all tank designs in the Imperium, the largest and most "famous" compared to the Russ is the Baneblade.

its the most "Modern Tank-Like" would of the Lot dispite its massive size and excess weapons, with independant suspension, large enough turret and all, but of course is as impractical as the russ due to its trade mark size, including its off center turret placement, granted its size and weight would be offset by a futuristic and powerful engine, its size means "shoot me" of course but has its futuristic armor composition to fall back on, but again there are things built to kill it and defeat that armor.

The scale works against the practicallity of the designs. the models of course can't fit their crew/passengers, i remember seeing a picture with a to scale Leman Russ with the tansk commander standing next to it. to say that the Russ was towering over him was an understatment. I don't want to imagine how big a Baneblade would be to proper scale.


But in the end, its sci-fi, its fiction. They are not supposed to be practical in design, only look cool and kick butt while looking cool. Not be so practical they would function in reality.

The Mammoth Tank from Tiberium or even the Scorpion Tank from Halo makes more sense then a Russ, but they both serve the same purpose. Look awesome while dishing out massive amount of punishment to targets that are as fictional as they are. (Ork in SPAAAAAAACE, or.... whatever in space)

personally the design of the Chernovan tank from "Warhawk" would be a good design for a Leman Russ, Room for a hullmounted Lascannon, sponsons, and large enough turret that it makes sense



dam... now i want to build a Chernovan tank in place of a Leman Russ.

It looks cool,

The turret is ridiculous.

I raised this once and it provoked nerd rage from someone citing a cutaway drawing that was obviously not to scale; it's possible to draw a tribar,

Fair enough. The LR is a stupid design.

Now for the obligatory...

"Orks in spaaaaaace!".

I've commented on the flaws in the predator's design as well (boxy sides, still tall, MASSIVE shot trap under the manlet)

But at least that workable, it looks like it can fit its crew, and like shells can at least bounce off the front, its very much like the ww2 panther

Don't stop with the Leman Russ
I want a detailed analysis of every 40k vehicle, Imperial or otherwise.
tia

40k, where realisticness dies a gory death.

I hate it when people do this.

Imperial tanks are in a period where humanity can't make new designs or even build certain war machines, 40k exists in a WW1 status where troops run at each other hoping for the best, not modern warfare.

But too be honest, you may be trolling if you do think Sci-fi involving Daemons, Orks, Elves, Squats, Space Marines, Necrons etc. needs to be realistic, you probably are.

I always interpreted the vehicle models as being caricatures of the actual tanks, much like heroic scale with the infantry. The leman russ probably has suspension, the model just doesn't so that it's easy to assemble. Rhinos can fit their passengers, the model is just small for playabilty.

I always thought the silliest thing about the Leman Russ design is that it uses riveted armor in the 41st millenium. For reference, most first-rate military powers started using welded steel in World War 2.

But, whatever, it's flavor, and like another poster mentioned, it's basically stylized after a World War I-era British tank. By contrast, the Baneblade looks much more modern, with its squatter frame and angled front glacis. It's just art. It doesn't have to make sense, I guess.

The greatest enemy of the Imperium of Man is not Chaos nor Xenos but its collective stupidity.

sure its not the most efficent design but remember most of them were just meant to be tractor units turned tanks (looking back at the old STC lore) that effectivly work in any enviroment of any fuel source cheap and easy to build with no mind for comfort or perticular saftey for the pilots and gunners, but like i said the most important part is there cheap and easy to produce and loosing 5 (with sponsons) personal each time a tanks destroyed out of billions doesnt really bother the imperium :3 bullet trap or not

As Clumpski said just above - what we now know as the Leman Russ was not designed from the ground up as an MBT. The STC the Russ is based upon was originally an all purpose tractor unit. (Possibly an incomplete STC? This is quite old fluff I believe, and I can't remember the source off the top of my head) Because the IoM doesn't like inventing things from scratch; they used this existing STC and modified it to create a mass-produced tank that could fill most of the roles required that would otherwise be fulfilled by a completely new vehicle.

As mentioned above; this is probably why the older Baneblade - which I believe was designed from the ground up as a tank - looks much more like a modern vehicle. It was designed as a tank with these thoughts in mind; and so makes a bit more sense ("more sense" is a relative term, obviously )

Another thing mentioned above as well; there is also the heroic scale of the models and vehicles to consider.

IMO WW1 style tanks look far more terrifying than modern tanks (in terms of the aesthetic, not the weaponry) and fit the grim dark setting of 40k better. One of the things which seperate 40k from other sci fi franchises is that they don't go along with the conventional image of the futuristic technology and instead take elements of it and mix it with gothic, baroque, medieval elements etc. With the exception of the tau that is, who are almost a cliche.

Yeah its a crappy design. But its better then the dumpsters that the space marines use. And if a rhino can carry 10 marines and a russ is bigger then it should be able to fit its weapons and crew. Also its still the best battle tank in the galaxy, so it has to be doing something right. But if it had proper designs it would be unstopable.

A leman russ isn't a tank, its a tractor with a turret. A baneblade is a tank.

The rivets protect them.

EmilCrane wrote:The sides are flat and huge, you would hardly bounce anyhting

Actually, sloped or curved sides would be a detriment when the opponent is firing down on the tank, such as an RPG wielder from as econd story windows.

Sure, a single leman russ on its own would likely get flanked. But when you have 10 of them, hurtling down a hill, side by side to cover each others side armor, good luck getting a hit off on it! Leman russ tanks are designed to be used together, rather than alone.