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puma713 wrote:And that "area" has yet to be defined. Still waiting on a page number.

So HG goes off at an unspecified time as well, and that unspecified time, whenever it is, is simultaneous with CF as they have similar wording on when they are used.

This still does not negate the fact that HG stops attacks in the ENSUING combat.

CF does not go off in the ensuing combat, because it goes off before hand.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:And that "area" has yet to be defined. Still waiting on a page number.

So HG goes off at an unspecified time as well, and that unspecified time, whenever it is, is simultaneous with CF as they have similar wording on when they are used.

Apparently, you're having trouble with reading comprehension. My only regret is that I cannot write this in crayon.

They are both contingent on the fact that they are used before attacks. One is an attack. One is not. Therefore, the one that is not an attack must go before the one that is, since they are both contingent on going before attacks.

As I said in my last post, I can repeat myself as many times as you like. It is not going to change my argument, nor will it make you understand any better. Unfortunately, I cannot do the thinking for you.

Thanks for the insults, I guess civility goes out the window?

As you do not seem to realize that HG only stops attacks in the ensuing combat, which is after HG is used.

It is also after CF is used, so your argument is invalid. (CF is used before the ENSUING combat...)

I figured this would be sort of open and shut.

They both go off simultaneously, Crowe gets his flame but has to forgo any attacks made in initiative. Since Hypnotic Gaze apparently says that it affects attacks in the "ensuing combat" then that would mean it doesn't affect the flame. HG affects "ensuing" (after) attacks. CF activates simultaneously with Gaze, meaning it does not "ensue" or come after HG, which means its not negated.

DeathReaper wrote: your argument is invalid.

Yeah, I heard. You keep saying that, as if that makes it true.

Deathreaper wrote:As you do not seem to realize that HG only stops attacks in the ensuing combat, which is after HG is used.

When is the "ensuing close combat"? If it is not a part of "close combat" (even though every single part of CF points to it being a part of combat, including the words "wound caused by Cleansing Flame are counted has having been caused in close combat for all purposes), then when is it?

Here, I'll help:

Move Assaulting Unts
-----Pick a unit (Do you use Cleansing Flame here? Nope, you're simply picking a unit)
-----Declare which enemy unit it is going it assault (Here? nope.)
-----Move the assaulting unit. (Surely here, if not in the close combat. Still no.)
-----Pick another unit and repeat above until units have moved. (Here? No, still no.)

Defenders React
-----The opponent picks one of his units that have been assaulted. (Maybe here? No, I would say not.)
-----The opponent moves all of the models in the unit into base contact with the enemy, or at least into position to be engaged. (Surely here, you're in position now! No, you still must do a few more things.)
-----Pick another unit and repeat until all assaulted units have moved. (Nope, not here. You're not even focused on that unit.)

Resolve Combats
-----Pick a combat. (Here? Well, maybe, if you're picking that combat. Let's check. Are you going to pick that combat?)
-----Fight close combat (Ahh, here we go. This is it right? I can go now!?!)

Yes. After you pick a combat, your next step is to Fight Close Combat. There is no other choice in between. As soon as you pick the combat, the next step is to Fight Close Combat. Anything that happens after "pick close combat" is a part of "fight close combat".

But since I know you're having trouble understanding, I'll try to continue to spell it out for you:

Okay! It's time! We've picked our combat, now its time to Fight Close Combat! BUT - before "engaged models roll to hit and to wound in Initiative order", I have something that goes before that! Cleansing Flame!"

Well, before you can cast Cleansing Flame, I have something that must go off before any attacks.

Oh? What's that?!

Hypnotic Gaze. If I pass, it will stop all attacks in the ensuing close combat.

Hey! Wait a sec! I go before the "ensuing close combat"!

No, idiot. Do you know what ensuing means? It means, "directly after." It means, "immediately succeeding." It means "as soon as this is done, whatever is afterwards is 'ensuing'." Get it?

No, I still don't get it.

Okay. Here is a dictionary definition:



Ahhhh, okay, I get it. So, Hypnotic Gaze has to go before Cleansing Flame, because Cleansing Flame is an attack, and Hypnotic Gaze goes off before any attacks.

Correct.

And if you pass Hypnotic Gaze, I cannot make any attacks in the ensuing close combat, which means, the combat right after Hypnotic Gaze.

That is correct.

And it is a part of the "close combat" because after we "pick a combat", the assault rules go directly into "fight close combat".

Bingo, you got it.






Does that help at all? Or do I need to get the puppets?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

gpfunk wrote:I figured this would be sort of open and shut.

They both go off simultaneously, Crowe gets his flame but has to forgo any attacks made in initiative. Since Hypnotic Gaze apparently says that it affects attacks in the "ensuing combat" then that would mean it doesn't affect the flame. HG affects "ensuing" (after) attacks. CF activates simultaneously with Gaze, meaning it does not "ensue" or come after HG, which means its not negated.

So, just to clarify: You can make a close combat attack, while simultaneously using something that must go before attacks?

The ensuing combat, as shown earlier, is when the initiative starts rolling and the Initiative attacks are made.

Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order, that is why HG does not have any effect on CF.

Keep up the insults though, it does nothing more that paint you in a certain light.

puma713 wrote:Well, before you can cast Cleansing Flame, I have something that must go off before any attacks.

Cleansing Flame is a Psychic power that is used at the same time as HG...

DeathReaper wrote:The ensuing combat, as shown earlier, is when the initiative starts rolling and the Initiative attacks are made.

As I said earlier, I didn't expect you to understand. If you cannot comprehend what "to ensue" means, then we cannot discuss what "ensuing" means.

DeathReaper wrote:Keep up the insults though, it does nothing more that paint you in a certain light.

If you weren't acting obtuse, I wouldn't have to treat you as if you were.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:Well, before you can cast Cleansing Flame, I have something that must go off before any attacks.

Cleansing Flame is a Psychic power that is used at the same time as HG...

It is also a close combat attack. But, since you're ignoring the FAQs, I don't expect you to acknowledge this.

It does not matter that it is a CC attack, as Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order, that is why HG does not have any effect on CF.

The ensuing combat is close combat attacks made in Init Order.

You are the one misinterpreting the rules.

Though you may want to adhere to Dakka's rule #1, Since I have.

DeathReaper wrote:It does not matter that it is a CC attack, as Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order, that is why HG does not have any effect on CF.

Where, between Defenders React and Fighting a Close Combat does this happen? I'm on page 34. Unless you have a different rulebook than I do. If it is not happening as a part of Fighting a Close Combat, then it must be a part of Defenders React. You see, there is nothing in between.

DeathReaper wrote:Though you may want to adhere to Dakka's rule #1, Since I have.

I am being polite.

No you're not. Please don't make personal attacks on other Dakkanauts.
Reds8n

puma713 wrote:
Apparently, you're having trouble with reading comprehension. My only regret is that I cannot write this in crayon..

Comments like this don't help.

If you've come to an impasse then it's best you just step back and agree to disagree for the moment. perhaps things will sort themselves out later.

Forget whether CF is a psychic attack, a close combat attack, or both. Just follow the written rule on how to play it. If it's a close combat attack that has rules description saying it follows the psychic power rules, we all know how to play psychic powers. That's not important.

What is important and what we can agree:
1. it is an attack
2. it happens before other "blow" attacks.

Hypnotic Gaze goes before all attacks in the ensuing combat.

Therefore they don't go at the same time, Hypnotic Gaze goes first. So Hypnotic Gaze can prevent Cleansing Flame attacks.

ND- except youre ignoring the rules, shich define precisely wyat combat is- attacks made in init order.

CF is not an attack in init order, so it is not part of thr ensuing combat that HG talks about.

The two occur at the same time, as one does not block the other and both have triggers in the same point space. To impose an ordering where none is required results in a race condition, qs has been pointed out and puma ivnores

Puma- please calm down, no need to throw insults

Nos - Cleansing Flame wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes. Codex overrides rules in this case. For the purpose of timing, the wounds count has being caused during combat.

Let's say we don't care about when each goes off and just accept that one player does HG and the other does CF.

We agree: HG prevents all attacks during combat.

Now to find common ground lets assume CF does happen at the same time.

HG prevents:
1. blows in CC
2. CF attacks/wounds that count as being caused in close combat.

Lets say CF even goes first, but the effect is counted as happening during combat. HG prevents CF if the attacks count has being caused during combat.

It may not make sense to roll - consider the effect, and then count that effect as happening later in order and then have it retroactively prevented, but this is what is RAW.

RAW says that CF wounds, after the psychic test is passed, and the wounds are created on a 4+ (no attacks have been made yet) you now allocate the wounds, once you have gotten a unit to fail a wound it becomes a unsaved wound. at this point that wound counts as it it was caused by a CCA...That is RAW.

Now the FAQ really dosent change anything since its stating from the two choices if its ranged or close...so in the end HG only stops attacks...CF is a psychic ability that causes wounds that only count as CCA wounds...not needing to attack HG does not stop CF.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Therefore it isn't, by your and pumas interpretation.

No. Don't attempt to put words into my mouth. I think that is fully capable of being a psychic power and a close combat attack. Just like Paroxysm is a Shooting attack and a psychic power. Just like Mind War is a shooting attack and a psychic power. What you mean is your understanding of my interpretation.

I'm sorry? The FAQ says it is a Close Combat attack. We are not allowed to interpret that statement and must take it as written, according to you.
Does the FAQ say it's a PCCA?
Does the FAQ say anything about it being a psychic power?

Becayse Paroxysm and Mind War say they're PSAs.

What you'll say next is, well there is no such thing as a PCCA. Which I think is funny, since you're more than eager to create sub-phases of phases that aren't outlined in the rulebook at all - not mentioned anywhere - but you insist that they exist, since these psychic powers must function in this "limbo". However, you'll swear by the fact that there is no PCCA. So, you want powers to function in this limbo state (that is not supported in the rules), but you won't acknowledge the existence of PCCA's (which are not supported in the rules).

Wow. No.
There is no such thing as a PCCA.
There are periods of time that the rules do not delineate. Such as before movement, the end of the assault phase, the beginning of the shooting phase, etc. This is one of those periods of time. I'm not making up a sub-phase any more than any power in the game.

Must be nice to create rules that conveniently match your argument.

Way to attack the person and not the argument.

Cleansing Flame is an attack (no matter the implications. Sorry, I didn't write the FAQ, GW did).

Great. I'll be sure to make sure every GK player out there knows they just got a pretty massive buff.

What I have been given in return is assumptions, fabricated rules and complete ignorance of hard-and-fast evidence.

False. Please apologize.

Finally, I was told "sorry, if you want to use it, you have to call it out first", resorting to playschool tactics to win an argument, knowing full-well that that sort of defense is flimsy and not at all supported by HYWPI.

So you go from "People that are discussing how something works and want to understand the rules" to "HYWPI". That's interesting.

And you can say, "Well, we're not discussing HYWPI, we're discussing RAW." But isn't there a point where RAW gets ridiculous and HYWPI is the only method of recourse? We can't discuss Rage, because Rage is broken. So, do we just simply not discuss it? No, we discuss HYWPI.

That's interesting - there was a very recent thread covering Rage, so obviously it can be discussed.

No one is ever going to restrict their opponent from using powers entitled to them by purchasing them from their codex because they started rolling their dice first. That is a ridiculous argument from a struggling line of defense. It is grasping for straws - looking for a lifeline. Every defense has been rebutted. Every angle has been countered. Now we are simply going back and forth.

False. You're simply ignoring every other thing I've stated.

I can repeat myself as many times as you like. My argument (unlike yours) will not change.

And mine hasn't changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It does not matter that it is a CC attack, as Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order, that is why HG does not have any effect on CF.

Where, between Defenders React and Fighting a Close Combat does this happen? I'm on page 34. Unless you have a different rulebook than I do. If it is not happening as a part of Fighting a Close Combat, then it must be a part of Defenders React. You see, there is nothing in between.

So when does HG happen?

You know if the FAQ overwrites the codex, and CF is changed to a CCA rather then a psychic ability. then a 10 man purifier squad can cast it 10 times...HG only blocking one of then in this case since it has been changed to an attack...LET THE TABLING BEGIN.

And we know the FAQ can change rules, i.e. SitW and embarked Psykers, Spre Cloud, certain PSA's not requiring a To Hit roll, etc.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Nos - Cleansing Flame wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes. Codex overrides rules in this case. For the purpose of timing, the wounds count has being caused during combat.

aaaaaand stop right there. Notice how you have switched from "attacks" to "wounds" in this discussion?

The two are nto the same. HG prevents attacks in tghe ensuing combat, it does not prevent wounds.

CF is before combat, due to the definition of combat, and ONLY any resulting wounds count as having occurred IN combat.

Again, please actually read and understand the rules carefully, and avoid conflating two such disparate terms as "attack" and "wound", as they really do cause your arguments to fail, and fail hard

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Nos - Cleansing Flame wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes. Codex overrides rules in this case. For the purpose of timing, the wounds count has being caused during combat.

aaaaaand stop right there. Notice how you have switched from "attacks" to "wounds" in this discussion?

The two are nto the same. HG prevents attacks in tghe ensuing combat, it does not prevent wounds.

CF is before combat, due to the definition of combat, and ONLY any resulting wounds count as having occurred IN combat.

Again, please actually read and understand the rules carefully, and avoid conflating two such disparate terms as "attack" and "wound", as they really do cause your arguments to fail, and fail hard

I see your point. But does it make any sense that the attack happens before combat and the wounds happen during combat?

CF doesn't just say the wounds happen in combat - it says "count as having been caused". So they are caused - by the attack. I agree the wording is a bit convoluted. Bear with me. But if they are caused by the attack and count as having been caused during combat - that means the attack counts as having been caused in combat.

The second thing is the FAQ - stating CF is a close combat attack. Forget all the nonsense about it no longer being a psychic attack, ignoring psychic hoods and all of that ridiculousness. But if its a close combat attack then even at the same time HG stops CF.

Two powers going off at the same time, one committing an action and the other stopping that action - the result should be a stopped action. Only the action preceding the prevention would be successful.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Two powers going off at the same time, one committing an action and the other stopping that action - the result should be a stopped action. Only the action preceding the prevention would be successful.

Interesting statement - how do you feel about FNP vs ES?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/437941.page#4064719
(Note that there is a very close similarity here)

simultaneously means simultaneously...
I cannot retroactively stop an action that is already initiated (except for some rare cases in assault movements but this is clearly defined in the rules).

And who has the absurd idea, that cleansing flame is an "attack"? What is the definition of "attack" given by the rules? It is either a unit characteristic or a certain close combat action that is made in initiative order.

Cleansing flame is a psychic power that has a certain effect. So it is treated exactly the same as hypnotic gaze. So what happens when 2 hypnotic gaze broodlords make their hypnotic gaze-"attack" simultaneously? Do they both cancel their attacks out, which would mean, that they hadnt made them at all, which would mean that they can strike normally and use hypnotic gaze normally which results in a game crash?

-Nazdreg- wrote:And who has the absurd idea, that cleansing flame is an "attack"?

The GW FAQ.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Two powers going off at the same time, one committing an action and the other stopping that action - the result should be a stopped action. Only the action preceding the prevention would be successful.

Interesting statement - how do you feel about FNP vs ES?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/437941.page#4064719
(Note that there is a very close similarity here)

Not at all the same. FNP occurs after an unsaved wound.

Here I don't believe anyone is arguing that CF happens before HG. At best they happen at the same time. There are many indications in RAW and the FAQ that they should be considered as HG happening first.

This is how I play it:

both a basically treated at I11 so they both go at the same time....

all this arguing is like saying "My I1 chainsword gets to go before you powerfist because swords are faster!!!"

BewareOfTom wrote:This is how I play it:

both a basically treated at I11 so they both go at the same time....

all this arguing is like saying "My I1 chainsword gets to go before you powerfist because swords are faster!!!"

Convenient. So you just ignore the whole "Cleansing Flame wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"?

why does that matter? it happens at the same time.... they count as close combat attacks that happen the same time as the gaze......

Nemesor Dave wrote:Convenient. So you just ignore the whole "Cleansing Flame wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"?

However that is only "Once the effects of CF have been resolved (And any casualties removed), blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by CF are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes." (P.31 GK Codex)

So it is not until after the power is cast, wounds are caused, and casualty removal are the Unsaved wounds caused by CF counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes.

Not before this.

DK wrote:You know if the FAQ overwrites the codex, and CF is changed to a CCA rather then a psychic ability. then a 10 man purifier squad can cast it 10 times...HG only blocking one of then in this case since it has been changed to an attack...LET THE TABLING BEGIN.

however that purifier squad still has a mastery level and CF is still a psychic power and you cannot cast it that many times.

blaktoof wrote:

DK wrote:You know if the FAQ overwrites the codex, and CF is changed to a CCA rather then a psychic ability. then a 10 man purifier squad can cast it 10 times...HG only blocking one of then in this case since it has been changed to an attack...LET THE TABLING BEGIN.

however that purifier squad still has a mastery level and CF is still a psychic power and you cannot cast it that many times.

you missed the point of CF being an CCA based on the FAQ, the FAQ is not listed at a psychic ability and a CCA, each Purifier has the CF CCA, so with the argument that HG would stop CF because its a CCA, then using that line of logic CF replaces the Purifier's attack. In turn you could use it the # of models you have in your squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would love to see 30 Genes get hit with 10 CF, thats 300 dice rolls of 4+. looking at 150 wounds on 30 models.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Two powers going off at the same time, one committing an action and the other stopping that action - the result should be a stopped action. Only the action preceding the prevention would be successful.

Interesting statement - how do you feel about FNP vs ES?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/437941.page#4064719
(Note that there is a very close similarity here)

Not at all the same. FNP occurs after an unsaved wound.

As does ES. And FNP tells you to ignore that wound. So applying your logic from this thread, the action would be stopped.
Except that's not what you said in the FNP thread - you actually said the timing doesn't matter.

Here I don't believe anyone is arguing that CF happens before HG. At best they happen at the same time. There are many indications in RAW and the FAQ that they should be considered as HG happening first.

There actually aren't any saying that HG happens first, but okay. And I still don't understand how, if they happen at the same time one precludes the other from working.