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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
oh...

Wait, you can cast prescience on TANKS!??!?!?!

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD!??!

Yep, and I'll 1 up the rune priest with a primaris casting it after an allied deamon princes lashes the unit out of cover, into the open, and into a group hug.

Yes, blessings are cast on target units (BRB pg. 68). So they are not specifically limited to infantry.

Another reason why Divination is OP.




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 schadenfreude wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
oh...

Wait, you can cast prescience on TANKS!??!?!?!

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD!??!

Yep, and I'll 1 up the rune priest with a primaris casting it after an allied deamon princes lashes the unit out of cover, into the open, and into a group hug.

Primaris Psykers do not have access to Divination.

He was talking about a Rune Priest (Space Wolf) that uses the Primaris Power from the Divination Discipline, not a Primaris Psyker from the Imperial Guard codex.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Even with almost a 3rd of the wounds saved, it made it's points back in a SINGLE SALVO. And it only got to shoot one turn.

Respectfully, isn't that statement a 4th edition mentality?

"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives. An example of this would be ork grots sitting on objectives. Another example would be fateweaver or eldrad -- who I have never seen 'kill their points back' in any game yet they are considered auto-take.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Turn 2, my opponent fired everything he had at it and got a lucky pen, killing it.

That's a 6th edition mentality! If one of your units manages to absorb one entire round of shooting before it dies, it took up to 20% of your opponents possible fire. (in a 5 turn game)

And that was a lucky shot! Stick that tank behind an aegis defense line and even an rail gun only has a 11% of killing it. Having a platform that resilient with a lot of damage potential is awesome. The fact that it has damage potential means your opponent has to deal with it. Being resilient means he can't just dedicate a small amount of firepower to dislodge it. He must focus a lot of his attention to dislodging it, which means that's less firepower the rest of your army is absorbing.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Respectfully, isn't that statement a 4th edition mentality?
"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives. An example of this would be ork grots sitting on objectives. Another example would be fateweaver or eldrad -- who I have never seen 'kill their points back' in any game yet they are considered auto-take.

Given the piss-poor damage output of infantry guard, russes need to make several times their points costs back

 labmouse42 wrote:
"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives. An example of this would be ork grots sitting on objectives. Another example would be fateweaver or eldrad -- who I have never seen 'kill their points back' in any game yet they are considered auto-take.

It's obsolete in the sense that it's not the ONLY standard a unit should be judged by. As you said, a unit that never makes its points back directly by killing enemy units can still be good if it fills a necessary support role, claims objectives, etc. However, it is still one of the ways in which a unit can justify its place in a list. Think about it this way: if we're playing a 2000 point game and my 200 point tank kills 250 points of your units before dying we're now playing a game with my 1800 points against your 1750. And let's say I make another of these trades. Now we're playing with my 1600 against your 1500. If I keep making equal or better trades eventually I'll be the only one with an army left and I'll easily claim all of the objectives for the win.

Now, obviously this is a rather simplified view of things, but a unit that can consistently remove its points or better from your opponent's army is probably going to be a successful unit.

 Testify wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Respectfully, isn't that statement a 4th edition mentality?
"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives. An example of this would be ork grots sitting on objectives. Another example would be fateweaver or eldrad -- who I have never seen 'kill their points back' in any game yet they are considered auto-take.

Given the piss-poor damage output of infantry guard, russes need to make several times their points costs back

Isn't that what vendettas are for
130 points for a flyer with that damage output makes most other armies cry themselves to sleep at night.


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 Peregrine wrote:
Now, obviously this is a rather simplified view of things, but a unit that can consistently remove its points or better from your opponent's army is probably going to be a successful unit.

There are units that are brought for damage output -- I agree with that. You can judge how good they are by an average of how many points worth of units they destroy in each game.

However, if you use that measuring stick as "They earned their points back" then its still a poor measuring stick. By the definition they are going to destroy good amounts of units and hopefully they will on average earn more then 'their points back'.

Your example also has a flaw. Lets say that I'm playing daemons and your playing IG. If my daemons kill 600 points of IG, and your army manages to kill fateweaver, your still up in that exchange -- even though its not points efficient.

Another example would be an army that only has 3 scoring troops in a 2000 point game in objective games. I would gladly trade point-for-point a 2 to 1 basis to kill those troop choices. Once I have removed those troops the best your opponent can do is tie you.

Again, there are high-damage units. You can use a measuring stick to see 'how much they kill', but measuring them on 'earning their points back' is an out of date mechanism.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Given the piss-poor damage output of infantry guard, russes need to make several times their points costs back

Isn't that what vendettas are for
130 points for a flyer with that damage output makes most other armies cry themselves to sleep at night.

 labmouse42 wrote:
There are units that are brought for damage output -- I agree with that. You can judge how good they are by an average of how many points worth of units they destroy in each game.

Exactly. And a LR Executioner is one of those units. You bring it because you want to remove heavy infantry, and a reasonable judge of its efficiency is whether it can remove ~200 points of heavy infantry in a game. If it can, it's killing efficiently. If it can't, it's probably not justifying its presence.

Your example also has a flaw. Lets say that I'm playing daemons and your playing IG. If my daemons kill 600 points of IG, and your army manages to kill fateweaver, your still up in that exchange -- even though its not points efficient.

That's not what "earning its points back" means. The important question in that scenario is whether the units I used to kill Fateweaver cost more or less than the demon. If they cost significantly less, my units are awesome. If they cost significantly more, it's probably a sign that my list isn't working very efficiently since the rest of the demon army will be killing my stuff without any interference.

Another example would be an army that only has 3 scoring troops in a 2000 point game in objective games. I would gladly trade point-for-point a 2 to 1 basis to kill those troop choices. Once I have removed those troops the best your opponent can do is tie you.

Actually 6th changed that, with first blood/linebreaker/kill the warlord. Throwing away units at a 2:1 ratio is probably going to weaken your army enough that they can kill YOUR scoring units and win on the tiebreaker points. And, if nothing else, there's always the traditional "table you to win" plan. If I'm killing your stuff at a 2:1 ratio and you're even being nice enough to focus on my troops instead of my big guns, well, I think I might go for that plan.

But even with that in mind, obviously sometimes you're going to be willing to throw away points at worse than a 1:1 ratio, but that's not the question here. The question is whether a unit is capable of earning its points back, on average, not whether you will choose to use it that way in every single game.

 Testify wrote:
Well Fateweaver is a T5 FMC with a re-rollable 3++. If you managed to take it down, it means you've concentrated an insane amount of firepower on him over one or two turns.

I've been playing daemons for ~2 months now, and I've learned that Fateweaver is not as durable as people think.

Fateweaver has 3 wounds, T5 with an 8/9 chance of making his save. However with every failed save, he has a 16.66% of leaving the game. This means you need ~22 wounds on him before he flees the board on average.

The trick is to use the right tool for the job.

Ground him so hes no longer swooping with your lasguns. Just keep making him make those grounding tests until he fails one -- which is 1/3 of the time.
Once he is down, use scatter lasers or a punisher with HB sponsons to throw a wounds on him. Throwing 22 wounds on a T5 target is not nearly as tough as one might think when you have plasma vets, chimeras, and a punisher.
If your playing someone who has Null Zone or rolls Misfortune, Fateweaver's survivability drops significantly.

In competitive games, I lose fateweaver 1/2 of the time. Good players know the right way to kill him. Poor players will try and rely upon 3 vendettas to take him down.

 Testify wrote:
In that time if the rest of my army has taken out 600 points of my enemy's army, I'd probably be pretty happy. The rest of my FMCs would be at your lines as well and about to wreck gak up, having been ignored by your shooting at the fateweaver.

You know, I've been putting less stock into the flying circus. I have gotten better results using more flamers, seeker chariots and bloodcrushers than 3 FMC DPs. I guess that's a topic for another thread though.

Speaking of getting on thread -- a punisher with HB sponons is an excellent example of a great use for a vehicle under the new rules. Moving 6" and being able to deliver that many STR 5 shots is a good advantage.


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 Peregrine wrote:
The question is whether a unit is capable of earning its points back, on average, not whether you will choose to use it that way in every single game.

Peregrine, it sounds like we are talking about nearly the same thing, and we are agreeing on most points. I have a feeling that we have a different definition for "Earning its points back" What is yours?

Your comment here leads to another excellent point that I've been debating lately.

I have been shifting the focus of my troop selections to multi-purpose units. The best example of this is the new flamer released with the WD Daemons update. These models are exceptional at killing vehicles, light infantry and heavy infantry. Bringing multi-purpose units means that your less likely to be caught in a situation where your units cannot do any good.

LRBTs can nicely fit into this role. An executioner can be utilized vs light armor, heavy infantry or light infantry with equal effect. A bare bones LRBT can be used vs MEQ or anti-vehicle.

Can you think of other ways to maximize the IGs mutli-purpose unit roles?

This is the reason I don't play in tournaments. The Uber competative nature take all the fun out of the game. I like to build an army, play and have a few beers while catching up with friends. Don't get me wrong I like to win but obessing about whether my Russ' are worth the points takes away the whole point of playing the game to have fun. If its not fun then why play? Call me a grumpy old man but I play simply for the comradery and fun of the hobby.

Holy crap, say one thing about a tank making it's points back and the thread explodes

What I meant by it was that even the tank costs almost as much as a landraider, it can still pull its weight. It costs almost as much as 2 barebones russes, it better be doing almost 2x the damage per turn as well. You buy your heavy support to kill things usually, and thats what an executioner with plasma sponsons and a lascannon does. Yes it draws fire like no other, but if I wanted to eat AT I would take barebones russes as they spread their firepower out more. However, I'm kind of hesitant to take vanilla russes now when usually 30 to 40 points can get you a much scarier tank now. The punisher, exterminator, and the vanquisher can all become nasty now when you throw a couple upgrades on them. Plus, they tend to have redncdancy built in. If I lose the turret on a LRMBT then it's pretty much useless. But if I lose the turret on a lascannon/multimelta vanquisher, big whoop, I've stil got three nasty AT weapons that can fire on the move. My range has been reduced yes, but the tank can still do damage and pull it's weight on the battlefield and still attract fire, which a russ with only the hull bolter left could never do.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Even with almost a 3rd of the wounds saved, it made it's points back in a SINGLE SALVO. And it only got to shoot one turn.

Respectfully, isn't that statement a 4th edition mentality?

"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives.

Agreed, but It's not a worthless measuring stick. There is nothing wrong with using "killyness" as evidence of a units superiority.

 McGibs wrote:
Conqueror doesnt have lumbering behemoth, therefore does not have heavy.

So it has to remain stationary to make use of anything, otherwise it's snap firing. Even the coaxial bolter.

Sad but true. However I imagine this will be fixed soom. The Conqueror has always been the shoot on the move LRBT, and I'll bet the next FAQ from FW will have that roll restored. My question is will it drop back down to a str7 ap4 shot like it was in the past?

Pretty depressed about the changes TBH. LC LRBTs were a staple for me for what seems like forever. But now, its almost like reverting back to the dark days when Russes could only fire the boom-gun at the stand-still. The upsetting part is I have 5 Russ hulls with the LC permanently affixed... Luckily I still have enough bolter equipped hulls for most games.

The LC is still an ok choice. But it does hurt to be stuck with a particular load out. At least the new kits you can get away without glueing.

True, I've managed to get 3 of the newer model tanks, but I just prefer the look of the older kits. Luckily I have about a dozen old tanks with different guns and modified in various ways, so it's easy enough to just grab a different tank.

I just need to find a way to magnetize sponsons without cracking open the sides of the tank, and I'd be set!

Played my first game tonight with the new FAQ against a GK army, the executioner with PC sponsons is beast. I was able to put 12 plasma wounds and 3 HB wounds on a sqauds of termies. Even with gets hot that tank can rack up unbelievable amounts of kills. Hordes, termies, some light vehicles. This tank can do it all. Although Im finding having it shoot at light vehicles is a waste. The HB on the front needs to stay though, to keep the cost down as well as offer the opportunity to waste lower priority targets in front to get to the good stuff in the back.

The Exterminator with the MM and LC was not as effective as I had hoped. I am leaning towards replacing it with another Executioner and removing majority of the plasma from my list other than them. Leaving only 1 or 2 SWS with PG's and the CCS with pg's as well.

The 2 basilisks behind the ADL with a few LC's worked out unbelievably well also. What I feel I need now are units that can charge forward and put the pressure on the opponent along with providing some mobility. Some thoughts for this would be SM allies with bikes or the classic vet squads, in 5th I would run a handful to support the platoons where needed, might try out the same thing here in 6th.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
oh...

Wait, you can cast prescience on TANKS!??!?!?!

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD!??!

Yep, and I'll 1 up the rune priest with a primaris casting it after an allied deamon princes lashes the unit out of cover, into the open, and into a group hug.

Offtopic, but you can also cast prescience on zooming flyers.

I've finally got a chance to run a bit of IG fun with LR parking lots

Essentially had Exterminator (HB sponsons, HB turret, and a heavy stubber) - this thing is really really fun to shoot with, pretty much everything has range at 36' (well technically 34' since the sponsons are a bit backwards) The AP 4 does suck a bit but luckily I was shooting at alot of necron warriors so it essentially destroyed everything. Probably would suck vs SM's though 12 shots of str 5, and 4 shots of TL str 7 did really better than I thought as an Anti-air platform that I was still very impressed

I mixed in an eradicator with also bolters all around - the unit didn't really have much cohesion other than 36' effective range all around. I had some terrible scatters so I didn't get to do much with the nova cannon though I'm hoping to give it some more tries. There's another guard player with blob squads behind the aegis that always goes to ground and then orders them back up, it was mostly for that guy. Also effective vs Tau and eldar/GK henchmen lists so I'm really hoping to see it do better. Maybe run a squad of 2 of them?

I've yet to try out the legendary pask punisher as mine got killed before I got in range of anything useful. GG doomscythe...
Not sure if it was a good idea or not but I put a demolisher in with the punisher as a squadron. I'm thinking this was a poor choice. In either case, the doomscythe took them both out in one round so I didn't get to really test if the LC + demolisher still did anything. Heck of a fire magnet though.

Vendettas now ful fill most of my anti-armor needs. Now I actually have 3 of them. Had to strip some chimeras from my vets but I still really like vets with plasma/meltas. Now they ride in valks instead of chimeras cause I blew all the rest of the points on AV 14 lol

hopefully next week I'll get to try the much lauded plasmacutioner everyone's talking about or maybe divination bolter punisher. Locally, I may have to take 2 of them just to see if anything survive to actually get to shoot. Freaking necrons in my area are so cheese with doomscythes/nightfighting/lucky lightning rolls. At least they aren't using as many scarabs and spiders anymore... plenty O-wraiths though which btw, the exterminator did really well against with just pure wound saturation.

I recently took the Pask-punisher as well. For me it performed admirably. I think it just depends on what you're up against. I was facing orks and it just chewed threw ork walkers. The 29 str6 shots at BS4 is really amazing in the right places. Next time you might want to just consider taking two vanilla ones as Pask doesn't add much to a list facing crons. You'd really only be getting BS4 for the points as Str6 means nothing to necron vehicles with shields still up.

I tried the X5 Plasma Combo, and it worked decently. The thing soaked up a ton of firepower with that awesome AV 14, took out a squad of marine bikers, finished off a monstrous creature, and wrecked a transport; however, the thing whiffed completely when it came to taking out a clumped-together squad, which was disappointing. It's very versatile. I'm liking versatility more and more, especially in 6th. It's kinda weird, I find myself leaving anti-infantry to my tanks, and anti-tank to my infantry. I think two tanks, the pask-punisher and the plasma-tank are going to be in the go-to heavy support for my lists from now on, mostly because they can engage a wide variety of targets effectively and put out a high volume of fire.