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Vendettas are still better, but they're not far and away better. Fliers have rather limited movement, and with a 30" threat range, it's not going to be very difficult to catch a flier in it.

Another thing to consider with this setup is to just take a demolisher. It can't fire at fliers, but it's better than the vanquisher at everything else. Plus, the range of the guns match.

And yes, pask just became more useful, but he didn't become any less expensive...

I don't know, doesn't it say that if the tank doesn't move he gets crack shot? Even though he's piloting a heavy vehicle, I don't think that affects special abilities and what not.

Oh, you're right. It's only stationary for the purposes of figuring out which weapons can fire. Outside of this, it counts as moving like normal.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I don't know, doesn't it say that if the tank doesn't move he gets crack shot? Even though he's piloting a heavy vehicle, I don't think that affects special abilities and what not.

"Provided Pask's tanks remains stationary during the movement phase, all shots made by Pask's Leman Russ that turn benefit from the Crack Shot rule." p. 58 Imperial Guard Codex


You can see my confusion. Does that mean you wouldn't get the crack shot rule regardless of being heavy?

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh, you're right. It's only stationary for the purposes of figuring out which weapons can fire. Outside of this, it counts as moving like normal.

Ok that is what I thought.

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
I still think the Vendetta outshines the MM Russ at killing flyers.

Oh, of course it is. But the question is how many Vendettas (or other AA flyers) do you want to invest in? It's an awesome unit of course but unless you're expecting to face true flyerspam there's definitely diminishing returns on flyers. Having too high a percentage of your army off the table becomes a serious liability, so it's worth considering ground units which can kill flyers (in addition to their normal non-flyer targets) as a supplement to your Vendettas/Thunderbolts/whatevers.

 Ailaros wrote:
Another thing to consider with this setup is to just take a demolisher. It can't fire at fliers, but it's better than the vanquisher at everything else. Plus, the range of the guns match.

Yeah, but then you have the problem of ordnance = snap fire again. If they'd done the right thing (which I hope they still will) and made the tank heavy but kept the part where the turret is in addition to all normal shooting multimelta sponsons on a demolisher would be awesome. But when firing the main gun means wasting the points you spent on sponsons and the hull gun it makes it a lot less appealing.

The vanquisher, on the other hand, doesn't suffer from this problem and can always fire everything (two multimeltas, hull gun, main gun, coax gun, pintile gun!) at full BS, which is why I proposed it as the multimelta carrier. If you want to roll up to point blank range and melta something, you might as well add a vanquisher round while you're at it.

Right now, the 3 I am looking at are:

Classic LRBT, I do not might it sitting back fielding launching those pies forwards. It is a sturdy piece of av14. But right now I am thinking artillery might replace it later one.

The Demolisher with MM and LC. I am liking that it can move and destroy with the MM and LC or move and fire the big gun and snap fire all the rest.

And a punisher wth HB's all around. Lots of Str5 shots moving around the table. I have plenty of Str 7 with all of the autocannons in case I meet something tough.

Overall I am disappointed with the changes to the russ. The thing is supposed to move and fire everything, can we not get that gw? I feel like we will be getting this shortly. It took 2 months to get new FAQ's, hopefully we will get this slight, minor detail fixed in a few weeks. Until then, I know I will be looking at artillery options now to replace what my russes did along with more aggressive IS's

Peregrine wrote:It's an awesome unit of course but unless you're expecting to face true flyerspam there's definitely diminishing returns on flyers. Having too high a percentage of your army off the table becomes a serious liability, so it's worth considering ground units which can kill flyers (in addition to their normal non-flyer targets) as a supplement to your Vendettas/Thunderbolts/whatevers.

Also, another small note, the tanks have searchlights, so screw night fighting missions.

Peregrine wrote:Yeah, but then you have the problem of ordnance = snap fire again.

But the vanquisher cannon isn't doing much to fliers anyways. What does most of the lifting is the multimeltas.

I suppose a demolisher may not be the right choice. It would make sense to have a gun that is VERY different. Perhaps a MM punisher, or an MM LRBT. Something where the main gun really is a secondary weapon for those things that MMs aren't good against.

Point taken. In that case it just depends on point level and what to expect. Though if that is the case then I would rather run the exterminator. More shots = more chances to hit. TL to top it off. Throw Pask in there, and you've got a pretty potent unit so long as you sit still. It kinda just boils down to the environment. If you know what to expect and you deployed well, then you shouldn't have to move every turn. Having 4 TL Str 8 shots + w/e else at a flier, tank, or MC I can see as pretty damaging. I'm just not sure how I feel about the vanquisher. It seems too much geared toward anti-vehicle. Yeah sure it is gonna mess things up, but what happens when you run into some hordes? I would want some large blasts in there somewhere, and our tanks are the best things for those exact situations. Maybe run 2-3 russes, 1 of them being the vanquisher? Still, I feel the devil dog would fit a similarly effective role towards ground targets and it is a bit cheaper albeit more lightly armored. You take the good, you take the bad I suppose.

But the vanquisher cannon isn't doing much to fliers anyways. What does most of the lifting is the multimeltas.

Not to flyers, to ground units. If you're going to take a tank as an AV 14 melta platform and be willing to get close to stuff, don't you want to fire everything and make sure it's dead? With the demolisher you have to choose, and you always have points sitting idle no matter which choice you make. IMO this means taking one of the tanks with a heavy weapon for the main gun. With the vanquisher your main gun has a lot of synergy with the multimeltas, so I think it beats the exterminator's anti-light-vehicle main gun in that role.

With the demolisher, I'd rather just run it with no upgrades and demolish stuff. I can't think of many situations where I wouldn't want to fire the demolisher cannon, and I can't really justify spending points on snap fire weapons for a unit that's going to draw every anti-tank weapon in my opponent's army until it dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
I'm just not sure how I feel about the vanquisher. It seems too much geared toward anti-vehicle. Yeah sure it is gonna mess things up, but what happens when you run into some hordes?

That's the risk of running dedicated anti-tank (just like the risk of taking Vendettas, for example). The solution is to make sure you have anti-horde firepower in other slots: Griffons/Manticores, Hellhounds, etc.

Still, I feel the devil dog would fit a similarly effective role towards ground targets and it is a bit cheaper albeit more lightly armored. You take the good, you take the bad I suppose.

The Devil Dog isn't bad, but, as you said, AV 12 is a weakness. AV 14 is awesome for making sure your tank will survive to do its job, or at least soak up a substantial amount of fire before it goes down. The Devil Dog seems like more of a one-shot suicide weapon, it's good while it lasts but don't expect it to be around for long. Just consider it like the difference between the Leman Russ and Basilisk: there are times when the cheaper pie plate is appealing, but there are also a lot of times when you're very happy to spend points on AV 14.

Agreed. I think it does just boil down to synergy. IG have a lot of scary things at their disposal. It's all about how you supplement those scary things, how well they play off each other, and forcing your opponent to either split his focus or target one thing at a time. I've actually had some great luck with the devil dog though. Had some poor grey knights deepstrike in to kill some troops, and I direct hit my blast to kill all but one. It was glorious. Just the amount of speed it has compared to the russ is another positive. But yes, you sacrifice durability for speed/maneuverability. I'd love to see how well an all ground list would do. Hellhound and Russ chasis. That would be a beautiful sight.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
All I know is, now I want to try an executioner with sponson plasma cannons and a hull lascannon. I don't care if it's almost 250pts, that tank just makes me happy with the thought of all that AP 2 it'll put out.

And before you start crying "IT'LL GLANCE ITSELF TO DEATH A:LSFJ:SLDJF:SLDJF:L" It's only got a 1 in 2 chance of glancing itself every time it fires it's 5 plasma cannon shots. It also has a 1 in 2 shot of saving that glance. Meaning that only 1 out of 4 turns you'll glance yourself on average.

For that much AP 2 and firepower, it's really not that big of a deal. Plus, it just looks fun. I can't wait to try a bolter boat punisher now as well. But I will weep for Lumbering Behemoth. That was probably my favorite rule in the entire IG codex. It made your basic leman Russ an extremely flexible tank. Now, all you buy it for is the battlecannon, and some heavy bolters that *might* be useful...

Do it. I have. After a few games with it you'll suddenly start getting a 2+ dead-zone around it

Although, you may not need a Vendetta depending on how many Chimeras/HWS you already have.

What bugs me about the fact is I sincerely think GW was trying to make the tank better. I mean, they're letting us fire EVERYTHING at normal BS now, that could not have been an intentional nerf. I wonder if they'll bring it back for the LRMBT and the Demolisher. Then all the tanks would be really hard to pick from (except the eradicator of course ) I mean, you'd have a good reason to take any tank on the variants list then. They would all have a strong role, and it would've been awesome.

I just don't think they gave a thought about why Lumbering Behemoth is there for. We could care less about the movement rules. What we cared about was being able to fire a second weapon on the ordnance russes. AKA my precious lascannons.

I'm going to be trying a few of the non ordnance russes and we'll see how they do. Not really sure to expect since the rules for the tank have changed so much...

Well, time to put pask in a heavy bolter boat and give him that punisher cannon. It will be interesting, to say the least, and It'll give me an excuse to try the non-ordinance russes.

Still, that 15 point lasconnon has helped a lot, from stuff as little as putting another glance on a vehicle to letting the tank engage terminators and other 2+ elite infantry when there was nothing else to shoot at. I suppose this gives the vanquisher new life, but I'd honestly rather have lumbering behemoth back.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So getting back on topic from the rough riders, what setups do you guys see yourself taking for leman russes this edition, if you take them at all?

I'm looking at executioners, exterminators, and punishers now, as all seem like interesting ones to try out with the new changes. They can put out punishing amounts of fire while on the move now, especially the executioner and the punisher. Both can glance the heck out of lighter vehicles, which would allow me to focus on bringing my heavy antitank as lascannons for my infantry. Plus, all 3 of the tanks I mention annihilate most forms of infantry.

It's either that, or barebones russes with a bolter on them, because while I can see the appeal in a "2 weapon profile russ" I'd rather have a main battle cannon and secondary weapon that can take a hit from weapon destroyed. I want my lascannon, but I can think of almost no instance where I'd rather have 3 bolters to shoot instead. My russ should have something a battlecannon is good at shooting every turn, unlike bolters. Plus, other things in my army should be filling that role. I shouldn't have to buy some extra bolters on my russ when I should have so many autocannons it causes monstrous creatures to break out in hives.

Honestly I see myself abandoning demolishers in favour of cheaper Vanquishers for AT purposes, might slap a lascannon on them and make them 5 points more expensive, but they fill a useful role of long-range anti-vehicle work. Besides, it isn't as if I don't have enough AP 2 already, I have like 16 plasma guns and a good number of plasma pistols at 2000 points. Every squad has at least one plasma weapon. Not to mention that I run 2 full sized storm trooper squads as mechanized squads to molest the enemy as they advance (whether or not you consider their AP 3 guns useful, they are a good way to draw fire) and have a few meltaguns. I think long range tank killing is far more useful for me than some AP 2 pie plates.

The Exterminator and Executioner both got very significant buffs. I've never been a fan of pie plate Russes anyway really, they're too unreliable for my tastes.

Buttons wrote:

Honestly I see myself abandoning demolishers in favour of cheaper Vanquishers for AT purposes, might slap a lascannon on them and make them 5 points more expensive, but they fill a useful role of long-range anti-vehicle work. Besides, it isn't as if I don't have enough AP 2 already, I have like 16 plasma guns and a good number of plasma pistols at 2000 points. Every squad has at least one plasma weapon. Not to mention that I run 2 full sized storm trooper squads as mechanized squads to molest the enemy as they advance (whether or not you consider their AP 3 guns useful, they are a good way to draw fire) and have a few meltaguns. I think long range tank killing is far more useful for me than some AP 2 pie plates.

Then I think you need a Medusa with ECC and BBS. It is a much better long range AT selection. The Vanquisher is only good for the "the LR is Heavy YAY!" topic as it can also benefit from it. But as a dedicated long-range AT weapon, it is still forgettable.

But the Medusa has a shorter range and depending on the size of the target vehicle, could miss completely. Plus it isn't as well armoured as the Vanquisher....

This hasn't changed my use of LRBT's at all. Two vanilla and one demolisher.

Blast templates are brilliant in 6ed, shooting is more common, foot is more common and backfields can be deeper. Plus I need str10 pies and a demolisher just shines here.

Cheap, cheerful - my points go elsewhere. I never bought the tanks for their hull weaponry, I've only ever used them for their primary's.

Glocknall wrote:

 Doomhunter wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

What if its D3+2 attacks?

Oh, can we get back to tanks now?

It would be 1d3+1 attacks on a charge. Cyber steed replaces the normal +1A on charge with a D3. Rage provides an extra +1 attack on the charge. 1d3+1

Sorry to go a little off topic (again).
Ragnar Blackmain has the exact same thing, +D3 charge bonus and a +2 charge bonus. These don't stack, but give a +D3 bonus with a minimum of 2

Q: How does Ragnar Blackmane’s Insane Bravado bonus interact with Berserk Charge? (p55)
A: The unit would gain +D3 Attacks when it charges, with a minimum of +2 (as this is the minimum bonus conferred by the Berserk Charge special rule) – these effects do not stack.

 The Crusader wrote:
But the Medusa has a shorter range and depending on the size of the target vehicle, could miss completely. Plus it isn't as well armoured as the Vanquisher....

But it is faster (so it can position itself better), has a much stronger main weapon, smaller in size (easier cover) and can hit multiple targets (making it a decent MEQ/TEQ hunter too). And it can instagib T5 stuff too. And the Vanquisher can also miss completely even more so than the Medusa.

i think it doesnt ruin the pie plates, as much as i think it forces versatility into the heavy slot. Im thinking of running 2 units of 2 Russes. One naked demolisher and one LC/HB Exterminatorin each group, that way whatever target i hit will be utterly annihilated, making it good for anti infantry and anti-tank (the demo doing the heavy work and the exterminator shaving off hull points). The only problem i can think of is that the Demo is going to be a bit wasted if i fire at a flyer.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 The Crusader wrote:
But the Medusa has a shorter range and depending on the size of the target vehicle, could miss completely. Plus it isn't as well armoured as the Vanquisher....

But it is faster (so it can position itself better), has a much stronger main weapon, smaller in size (easier cover) and can hit multiple targets (making it a decent MEQ/TEQ hunter too). And it can instagib T5 stuff too. And the Vanquisher can also miss completely even more so than the Medusa.

Ah, but the Vanquisher has 4 (5 if you take a HK) weapons that can all be fired at once. Plus it has a smaller chance of loosing it's main armament. And even if it does, it is still a reasonably fearsome threat to armour. The Medusa can only lose 1 weapon before it is no longer a threat.

 The Crusader wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 The Crusader wrote:
But the Medusa has a shorter range and depending on the size of the target vehicle, could miss completely. Plus it isn't as well armoured as the Vanquisher....

But it is faster (so it can position itself better), has a much stronger main weapon, smaller in size (easier cover) and can hit multiple targets (making it a decent MEQ/TEQ hunter too). And it can instagib T5 stuff too. And the Vanquisher can also miss completely even more so than the Medusa.

Ah, but the Vanquisher has 4 (5 if you take a HK) weapons that can all be fired at once. Plus it has a smaller chance of loosing it's main armament. And even if it does, it is still a reasonably fearsome threat to armour. The Medusa can only lose 1 weapon before it is no longer a threat.

I try not to worry about weapon destroyed as much as i used to, because more often than not for me a tank is dead from glances long before it ever had a chance to lose its weapon, and even when it did whatever popped a weapon off was close enough to finish the job

Yeah, so the executioner with plasma sponsons and a lascannon is just as hilarious as I thought it would be. I got unlucky and lost one first turn, but I'll definitely be playing with them some more. They're just brutal against anything but heavy armor.

Other than that, exterminators are about to get a try again, although I'm unsure how I'm going to kit them out at the moment.

I think for this monday I'm going to replace my hydras and primaris with a pair of exterminators. No hull lascannon - I'm wanting the points for try #2 of harker (this time with outflank sauce), but were I to drop the special character, they'd definitely get them.

Apart from the turret and hull heavy bolter, I'm going to try out the sponson multimeltas. Yeah, the hydras put down 7 more S7 hits, but the exterminator puts down 2/3ds of a S8 Melta Ap1 hit. Not THAT much worse against AV11 fliers (and especially not AV12), while also being able to do, well, anything when fliers aren't present.

We'll see how it goes, though.

I was planning on running two LRBT with HF and a bolter boat paskterminator for adepticon. Not sure if I will still run those LRBTs...

I second the executioner with plasma sponsons. MEQs run rampant at my FLGS and the executioner helps me bring enough plasma to poop on their parade

I tired out the punisher with bolters and pask in a 2000 point game against a swarmy tyranid army. It made up its expensive point cost in gaunts. Yeah, Pask mowed down at least 255 points of gaunts. Even if he hadn't made his points back, I still would run him again. Pask is excellent at supplementing the gunline. He kept the swarms off my gunline so my heavy weapons and other units could fire at what they were most effective against longer, instead of getting charged turn 3 or 4 and loosing in close combat. 29 str 5 shots is nothing to sneeze at. A normal battlecannon, could only take out 9 or so guants a turn under the template (and much, much less if my opponent spread them out), whereas punisher Pask wiped a 30 'nid gaunt squad turn after consecutive turn.

The next game was against eldar, and it wasn't nearly as useful. It mopped up some infantry squads and took out few AV 10 scatterlaser walkers thingys. The extra firepower while moving was nice. It allowed it to get in range a few times, but it wasn't supported by enough infantry and died soon enough. It did keep the heat off of my more valuable units, such as the CCS or my other few chimeras.


I think the punisher was worith it, although I've yet to try it on any MEQ armies.

I used the Executioner yesterday and got great results with it. It placed horrendous amounts of Plasma down on some GKs. By turn 4 they were actively avoiding it, best part was I could move to follow with the new heavy change.

I think IG on the whole got stronger with this change. You can still get your demolisher cannons and battle cannon shot through artillery tanks at a cheaper cost and your russes can support assaults much more effectively.

I'm happy with the change. I do acknowledge the side affects as well. This is how I'd run each Russ. Keep in mind I've retired from tourney play. I'm not sure any Russ is WAAC, but these are my fun and effective patterns

Battle tank is probably going to be hull HB. By keeping it cheap I am pretty vulnerable to a weapon destroyed, I can absolutely see running sponson heavy bolters for that reason.

Demolisher hull lascannon. If you can't go flat out with a heavy vehicle than you might as well have a reasonable weapon to fire when the big gun is out of range. This was a tough one, this tank was probably hit hardest by the change

Exterminator. I think hull and sponson heavy bolters. Now that transports aren't a real problem anymore, I'm much more interested in matching AP than strength. I used to love the plasma sponsons on this one though.

Executioner. How good is this one now? Plasma sponsons and hull lascannon for sure. I think this version made out like a bandit in the change.

Vanquisher. Hull lascannon sponson multimeltas. This change essentially added 6" range to multimeltas. If you want cheap long range tank kill, don't take a Russ.

Punisher hull and sponson heavy bolters... This should be no surprise.

Eradicator. This guy just has to be hull and sponson heavy flamers. I don't know if I'd ever build this, because you can get a couple of really good cover-busting tanks in fast attack. But that is sheer comedy on light infantry.


I really like the discussion so far, particularly about the idea of not always being so locked into firing ordnance. There is a good chance that you guys could convince me to add multimeltas to the demolisher. Weapon destroyed, proximity to friendlies, and just adding the snapshots to my firepower. To me the Russ isn't about efficiency, the fun way to play it is as a very survivable brick with many devastating guns on it.