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All I know is, now I want to try an executioner with sponson plasma cannons and a hull lascannon. I don't care if it's almost 250pts, that tank just makes me happy with the thought of all that AP 2 it'll put out.

And before you start crying "IT'LL GLANCE ITSELF TO DEATH A:LSFJ:SLDJF:SLDJF:L" It's only got a 1 in 2 chance of glancing itself every time it fires it's 5 plasma cannon shots. It also has a 1 in 2 shot of saving that glance. Meaning that only 1 out of 4 turns you'll glance yourself on average.

For that much AP 2 and firepower, it's really not that big of a deal. Plus, it just looks fun. I can't wait to try a bolter boat punisher now as well. But I will weep for Lumbering Behemoth. That was probably my favorite rule in the entire IG codex. It made your basic leman Russ an extremely flexible tank. Now, all you buy it for is the battlecannon, and some heavy bolters that *might* be useful...

So I realized something here. My last game I used a Demolisher with LC/MMs and 2 bolter boat Exterminators. I like the idea of putting the HBs on the Demolisher, for one, because sometimes you just want to kill the last guy in a unit, and also because weapon destroyed results are less likely to drop the turret gun. I thought to myself: "you could just switch turrets with one of the Exterminators." But then I thought: "But what will you do with this Lascannon/Multimelta hull, just rip the guns off? What are you going to do, put the Exterminator turret on it and get 4 TL S7 AP4, 1 S9 AP2, and 2 S8 AP1 shots that can all fire at full BS while moving...?"

And then my internal monologue shut up and basked in the glory of such a tank. 195 Seems like a decent deal for that volume of AT fire.

 Ailaros wrote:

The added points are for added flexibility. There are things that a single splatcannon can't handle as well as 9-shot S5 weapon, such as fliers, or MCs, or picking off stragglers, or shooting at displaced units.

Perhaps we should think of russes as bolter boats that come with a good secondary gun to handle their niches rather than a splatcannon with interesting fiddly bitz tacked on.

Or, likewise, a demolisher could be a multimelta tank with actual armor and a lascannon if you want it and a pie plate just in case you come across terminators.

The thing is though that there's already a lot of other good stuff out there that can still handle terminators. Really IG was probably hurt the least (excepting Nids) when it comes to the power weapon nerf. I mean, sure, powerblobs got hurt, but IG has no lack of places to take AP1/2.

I can see your argument for the splatcannon bolter boat, though it kind of goes against your "Guard need to specialize" philosophy. I just can't see a good case for your suggested demolisher variant.

IMO, don't start ripping models apart. Just look at what happened with the Tau FAQs: target locks were removed in the first FAQ, then put back in with the second FAQ, most likely because someone realized that they'd overlooked a problem. Instead, complain politely to GW, and maybe the next FAQ will restore the line that the turret doesn't restrict your other weapons.

And then my internal monologue shut up and basked in the glory of such a tank. 195 Seems like a decent deal for that volume of AT fire.

I like this guy.

Thats pretty much a transport killing LR. The turret will handle the lower value targets, while the multi meltas and lascannons can dent armor 13/14. The fact that its on an AV 14 chassis makes it for a good unit to send headlong towards the enemy. Even though it can only move 6" a turn, you can direct the enemy vehicles towards other units that can take them down.

So maybe its worth the cost of taking Multi Melta sponsons now?

My issue with the ruling is that it splits the ordnance tanks in half. Demolishers work best as a mobile weapons platform dishing out high str ap2 death, that has been removed.

A Stock LRBT isn't hurt as badly , but loses its ability to pierce AP12-13 with any regularity.

The heavy weapons tank are much better now. Executioners are the big winner IMO. 6 AP 2 shots upon the move is sick.

 McGibs wrote:
I figure this will be errated again sometime in the future. The iconic LRBT has bolter sponsons and a hull lascannon. All of those are now useless.
Heavy vehicles should ignore the ordinance snap fire rule.

Oh, fun fact regarding rough riders. Seeing as that new weapon profile replaces the entire second paragraph, they get an extra attack on the charge for having two hand weapons. The lance is not a specialist weapon, so it counts as a second close combat weapon. 3 S5 I5 attacks each on the charge aint so shabby. Maybe theyll actually be proper glass cannons now.

Plus Mogul Kamir is now useful and should generally be taken with rough riders (rage and fearless for like 50 points (don't remember the exact value)) meaning they are getting an extra attack on the charge for 4 each, meaning about 41 str 5 initiative 5 AP3 attacks on the charge with Kamir. For extra lulz if you have Straken nearby you can boost their strength to 6.

Hmm might have to dust off my old rough rider project after all.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
All I know is, now I want to try an executioner with sponson plasma cannons and a hull lascannon. I don't care if it's almost 250pts, that tank just makes me happy with the thought of all that AP 2 it'll put out.

And before you start crying "IT'LL GLANCE ITSELF TO DEATH A:LSFJ:SLDJF:SLDJF:L" It's only got a 1 in 2 chance of glancing itself every time it fires it's 5 plasma cannon shots. It also has a 1 in 2 shot of saving that glance. Meaning that only 1 out of 4 turns you'll glance yourself on average.

For that much AP 2 and firepower, it's really not that big of a deal. Plus, it just looks fun. I can't wait to try a bolter boat punisher now as well. But I will weep for Lumbering Behemoth. That was probably my favorite rule in the entire IG codex. It made your basic leman Russ an extremely flexible tank. Now, all you buy it for is the battlecannon, and some heavy bolters that *might* be useful...

My main problem with that is that I would never need that much AP 2. I have never thought to myself "You know what I am missing? 5 Plasma cannon shots in a single AV 14 vehicle for >200 points." I might end up taking another two vanquishers because I like their look but never had justification to take them over my demolishers however.

Mogul Kamir already gives Furious Charge, so Straken is not really needed. The problem is the pretty substantial points per T3/5+ wound.

Biophysical wrote:
Mogul Kamir already gives Furious Charge, so Straken is not really needed. The problem is the pretty substantial points per T3/5+ wound.

Considering that he brings 5 rough riders to be on equal if not better footing than 10 rough riders for 10 points less than 5 more rough riders added to a base squad I consider it a great deal. Especially considering that a squad of 10 under Kamir can wipe out a squad of almost anything with a 3+ save or less in a single turn (40 or so attacks that hit most things on a 4+ and wound most things on a 2+ (about 17 AP3 wounds per turn)).

*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

 McGibs wrote:
*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

I believe they stack

 McGibs wrote:
*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

What if its D3+2 attacks?

Oh, can we get back to tanks now?

Can someone link this FAQ for me pls? I cant seem to find it.

TheMicah25 wrote:
Can someone link this FAQ for me pls? I cant seem to find it.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570044a_Imperial_Guard_v1.1.pdf

 Doomhunter wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

What if its D3+2 attacks?

Oh, can we get back to tanks now?

It would be 1d3+1 attacks on a charge. Cyber steed replaces the normal +1A on charge with a D3. Rage provides an extra +1 attack on the charge. 1d3+1

ah ok, that makes sense.

So getting back on topic from the rough riders, what setups do you guys see yourself taking for leman russes this edition, if you take them at all?

I'm looking at executioners, exterminators, and punishers now, as all seem like interesting ones to try out with the new changes. They can put out punishing amounts of fire while on the move now, especially the executioner and the punisher. Both can glance the heck out of lighter vehicles, which would allow me to focus on bringing my heavy antitank as lascannons for my infantry. Plus, all 3 of the tanks I mention annihilate most forms of infantry.

It's either that, or barebones russes with a bolter on them, because while I can see the appeal in a "2 weapon profile russ" I'd rather have a main battle cannon and secondary weapon that can take a hit from weapon destroyed. I want my lascannon, but I can think of almost no instance where I'd rather have 3 bolters to shoot instead. My russ should have something a battlecannon is good at shooting every turn, unlike bolters. Plus, other things in my army should be filling that role. I shouldn't have to buy some extra bolters on my russ when I should have so many autocannons it causes monstrous creatures to break out in hives.

My theories:

General Purpose MBT: Exterminator with 3x Heavy Bolterss (and a heavy stubber if I'm feeling fancy! They can shoot them again!)

Aggressive anti-hoard: Eradicator with 3x Heavy Flamers (gotta try it out. it might be too slow, or too hard to keep out of assaults to be useful)

Anti-Tank: Vanquisher -might- actually be somewhat useful, if you load it out with multimeltas and a lascannon. Drive it up to midfield, and with 3 'melta' shots and an LC, it should do all right as a dedicated tankhunter.

I still think Executioners are a bit overpriced, but I've honestly never used them much. Ditto for punisher (Got my freshly converted vulture for that).

LRBT and Demolisher.... man, iunno. I might have to put these on the backburner for now, and hope they FAQ something back in to fix them. I just loved those hull lascannons! They always did SOMETHING.

 McGibs wrote:
My theories:

General Purpose MBT: Exterminator with 3x Heavy Bolterss (and a heavy stubber if I'm feeling fancy! They can shoot them again!)

Aggressive anti-hoard: Eradicator with 3x Heavy Flamers (gotta try it out. it might be too slow, or too hard to keep out of assaults to be useful)

Anti-Tank: Vanquisher -might- actually be somewhat useful, if you load it out with multimeltas and a lascannon. Drive it up to midfield, and with 3 'melta' shots and an LC, it should do all right as a dedicated tankhunter.

I still think Executioners are a bit overpriced, but I've honestly never used them much. Ditto for punisher (Got my freshly converted vulture for that).

LRBT and Demolisher.... man, iunno. I might have to put these on the backburner for now, and hope they FAQ something back in to fix them. I just loved those hull lascannons! They always did SOMETHING.

Yep. I got to the point where I just started gluing them on, because I never wanted anything else. I pretty much considered Leman Russes 165pts, because I ALWAYS bought that lascannon.

I have a feeling they'll still be good, just no where near as awesome as they used to be, which is sad, because I love my Russes. They never let me down in 5th, or pre 1.1 6th.

I'm going to try 2 in a 1,000pts doubles list tomorrow and see what they do. If they can't wreck havoc in a low points game, there's no way they'll pull their weight at higher points where one would normally take them. If they don't work, I'll try exterminators and punishers, and see how they do. I have a feeling I'll just end up taking barebones russes in the end though...

You can now move 6" and fire both multimtlta sponsons at full BS. This is actually rather intriguing. Especially since with an 18" melta threat range a pair of tanks with MM sponsons really stand a decent chance at being serious anti-flier.

I agree with biophysical, I think - a MM exterminator does seem rather interesting now.

1 in 3 to get a melta shot, which is bound to wreck pretty much any flier it hits... which means any sane player will jink. But that means they can only snap fire next turn. I'd take those odds.

Yeah. Not fantastic anti-flier, but it's not THAT shabby either. Especially when the MM has a 30" threat range without melta (but is still S8, and most importantly, still Ap1).

It would at least make your opponent think twice with where the fliers went.

Furthermore, I'm starting to see the best way of taking down fliers is fishing for a vehicle destroyed result rather than hoping to glance it to death through massed fire. Extremely small, anecdotal data set, but both fliers I've killed so far in 6th ed have been taking down by a vehicle destroyed result on a pen, not by glancing it to death.

 Ailaros wrote:
You can now move 6" and fire both multimtlta sponsons at full BS.

Hm. That does make things interesting. But if you're going full anti-tank, maybe the vanquisher looks a bit more appealing? The main gun is heavy, not ordnance, so that's a pair of multimeltas, a lascannon and a TL vanquisher shot (assuming you buy the coax heavy stubber). That should get the job done against even heavy tanks or fortifications, and the main gun can still put holes in stuff from across the table if you need to.

It's just too bad the sponsons look so ugly or I'd be giving serious thought to an allied armored battlegroup with a MM/LC vanquisher HQ tank.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You can now move 6" and fire both multimtlta sponsons at full BS.

Hm. That does make things interesting. But if you're going full anti-tank, maybe the vanquisher looks a bit more appealing? The main gun is heavy, not ordnance, so that's a pair of multimeltas, a lascannon and a TL vanquisher shot (assuming you buy the coax heavy stubber). That should get the job done against even heavy tanks or fortifications, and the main gun can still put holes in stuff from across the table if you need to.

It's just too bad the sponsons look so ugly or I'd be giving serious thought to an allied armored battlegroup with a MM/LC vanquisher HQ tank.

My god, that tank would be the mother of all fire magnets though once your opponent figured out what it does.

Or, you play against greentide, and the ork player passes out from laughter.

Peregrine wrote:But if you're going full anti-tank, maybe the vanquisher looks a bit more appealing? The main gun is heavy, not ordnance, so that's a pair of multimeltas, a lascannon

Hmm. 200 points for a multimelta+lascannon vanquisher? I spent that much on a bolter boat punisher to take down fliers.

Against a vendetta (assuming melta range, which isn't that terribly difficult to get), it would be throwing it out of the sky a bit shy of 1 in 5 times you shot it, with an average of .5 glances per turn.

Against an AV11 flier (because let's be honest, doomscythes), it blows it out of the sky halfway between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 for an average of roughly .66 glances a turn. Meanwhile, for the same price, the punisher throws down .8 glances per turn.

Hmm, the vanquisher definitely does better for the points. Of course, the main gun still really suffers from the lack of Ap1, which make it so that the multimeltas are really what do the killing here. It's almost enough to make me consider an exterminator or LRBT still (because the main gun isn't doing much anyways). It also seriously makes me reconsider the hull lascannon. 15 points for something that throws an AV11 flier down only once in every 28 times you shoot it. Seems like a hull heavy flamer so that it can do SOMETHING against hordes would be more useful.

180 or 185 points, though, isn't the worst way to bring a couple of multimeltas around. Russ chassis are so durable now that it might be worthwhile to take just this for anti-tank. I'd also note that against an AV11 flier, the vendetta is only twice as good, and against ground targets, it's even less distinct. They do get to fly around, but russes get AV14 and get to start the game on the board.

I might start actually considering this. If a pair of multimelta tanks can take down a flier every other turn, and do heavy lifting against other vehicular targets... Hmmm...

Don't forget fortifications. Nothing says "goodbye bastion" like driving a MM/LC vanquisher (preferably a BS 4 company command tank) up to point blank range and still getting to shoot all four guns at full BS.

And of course, like MrMoustaffa said, it seems like this would have the same psychological impact as the demolisher, especially if it blows away a vehicle to make its presence known. There are worse ideas than shoving an AV 14 bullet sponge down your opponent's throat and saying "stop it or die".

 McGibs wrote:
Eradicator with 3 heavy flamers. Hilarious anti-hoard flame tank?

I like the way this man thinks! I'd love to see this! haha

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:But if you're going full anti-tank, maybe the vanquisher looks a bit more appealing? The main gun is heavy, not ordnance, so that's a pair of multimeltas, a lascannon

Hmm. 200 points for a multimelta+lascannon vanquisher? I spent that much on a bolter boat punisher to take down fliers.

Against a vendetta (assuming melta range, which isn't that terribly difficult to get), it would be throwing it out of the sky a bit shy of 1 in 5 times you shot it, with an average of .5 glances per turn.

Against an AV11 flier (because let's be honest, doomscythes), it blows it out of the sky halfway between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 for an average of roughly .66 glances a turn. Meanwhile, for the same price, the punisher throws down .8 glances per turn.

Hmm, the vanquisher definitely does better for the points. Of course, the main gun still really suffers from the lack of Ap1, which make it so that the multimeltas are really what do the killing here. It's almost enough to make me consider an exterminator or LRBT still (because the main gun isn't doing much anyways). It also seriously makes me reconsider the hull lascannon. 15 points for something that throws an AV11 flier down only once in every 28 times you shoot it. Seems like a hull heavy flamer so that it can do SOMETHING against hordes would be more useful.

180 or 185 points, though, isn't the worst way to bring a couple of multimeltas around. Russ chassis are so durable now that it might be worthwhile to take just this for anti-tank. I'd also note that against an AV11 flier, the vendetta is only twice as good, and against ground targets, it's even less distinct. They do get to fly around, but russes get AV14 and get to start the game on the board.

I might start actually considering this. If a pair of multimelta tanks can take down a flier every other turn, and do heavy lifting against other vehicular targets... Hmmm...

I dunno. I still think the Vendetta outshines the MM Russ at killing flyers. At only 24in range, it is possible for your opponent to out maneuver your tanks and stay out of range for the most part. As for ground targets and the vendetta I have been thinking: grav chute some vets in from your zooming vendetta onto the field. Being able to grave chute from a flyer means you can cover a lot of ground and still shoot your vendetta. I really think grav chute now has a much better place here in 6th. Dangerous terrain tests aren't so bad anymore and the only way the unit is completely destroyed is if you mishap. I would keep the Russes to being a bolter boat and then take a devil dog with hull MM. That would cover your bases pretty nicely me thinks.

Also, does Pasks crack shot rule still work even when you move now that tanks are heavy?