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 Kovnik Obama wrote:
That's clearly not how he is caracterised, tho. He is an elitist, so he has plenty of empathy, just not for everyone. It might change with time, I haven't red the entire crapola that is the HH, but in the first novel in which he appears he is clearly concerned by the wellfare of his men, and of the future of his planet.

Later on, when he was contemplating siding with Guilliman, or trying to make a move for himself, he clearly stated that there would be no Empire without the Emperor at it's head. Which should be proof enough of his loyalty...

And as far as traitorous... well... He isn't a traitor, right?

Only at the end of Descent of Angels, it is made painfully clear how utterly lacking he is of empathy, when he cuts his legion in half because the others fell out of favor with him (For what reason I honestly can't say, though he also seems to dislike psykers since IIRC every Librarian was sent) and sent them back to Caliban, and beyond that, he apparently was aware that Caliban is the way it is because it houses a powerful Greater Daemon. Yet he sent those without his favor (Including Luther and protagonist Zathariel) there anyway, seemingly to die. Oh, and for someone who cared oh so much about his world and its people, he didn't do gak to stop the industrialization and soiling of it, which numerous people in his legion alone disliked.

He also began conspiring to have himself placed as the future Warmaster over anything else, the moment the Heresy began he tried to butter up Perturabo to support his bid to Warmaster with siege weapons (Only for buddy Perturabo to make him look like a colossal tool).

That isn't proof of loyalty. He just didn't believe that the Imperium would survive without the Emperor heading it. Though admittedly, if there is one other person he has loyalty to besides himself, it would be the Emperor.

That last part is suspect, and we will have to wait for the Dark Angels subplot to unfold in full to be sure on whether Jonson really was loyal to the core, or if he was just waiting to see who the victor is.

The Lion is a plotting, conniving snake, treating people as tools to be used and discarded.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Only at the end of Descent of Angels, it is made painfully clear how utterly lacking he is of empathy, when he cuts his legion in half because the others fell out of favor with him (For what reason I honestly can't say, though he also seems to dislike psykers since IIRC every Librarian was sent)

Making a reserve out of your less favored troops isn't lacking empathy, and isn't sociopathic. It's being a good general.

he apparently was aware that Caliban is the way it is because it houses a powerful Greater Daemon.

That's implied, let's remember no one knew about Chaos pre-Heresy.

Yet he sent those without his favor (Including Luther and protagonist Zathariel) there anyway, seemingly to die.

That's completely backward. He sent back his reserve to their homeworld.

Oh, and for someone who cared oh so much about his world and its people, he didn't do gak to stop the industrialization and soiling of it, which numerous people in his legion alone disliked.

Lot's of them also disliked waging a war against all the monsters, and yet it was still warranted. A lot of Calibanese (sp?) were stupidly attached to their romantic vision of a warlike life-style.

He also began conspiring to have himself placed as the future Warmaster over anything else, the moment the Heresy began he tried to butter up Perturabo to support his bid to Warmaster with siege weapons (Only for buddy Perturabo to make him look like a colossal tool).

I still don't get why it would make him a douche. He refused to acknowledge another unknown general as his superior, and decided he would be better at the job. He had ambition. In the end he was perfectly vindicated.

That isn't proof of loyalty. He just didn't believe that the Imperium would survive without the Emperor heading it. Though admittedly, if there is one other person he has loyalty to besides himself, it would be the Emperor.

And yet here you are calling him a conniving snake... In comparison to about 50% if not more of the other primarch, he was certainly a much better person than you give him credit for.

Yes, the Lion loves his planet and his legion. That's why he allowed the Imperium to turn his planet into an industrial hell-hole where natives were second-class citizens, and later bombed it into oblivion, and why he condemned his closest warriors to ignominious garrison duty after a single campaign.

The Lion acknowledges no one above himself except the Emperor, and cares only for his own aggrandizement and station. He is no traitor; if he wouldn't acknowledge Horus as the Warmaster, he wouldn't accept him as a King.

And killing that librarian just for following Emp's decree +his paranoia over his brothers (not helping iron hands,negotiating with traitors) and the whole "fallen" thingy....