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But it is still part of the background...

If you see demons, you get corrupted. People live in horrible conditions, and if they learn about demons, if they believe they do exist and can "help" you, they will become tainted. Cue massive demonic infestation as soon as a psyker gets corrupted.

This is the reason Grey Knights kill everyone when they are finished. And this is the reason the Inquisition kill billions to save humanity.

Repression -> Order, not Chaos.

 da001 wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


That's... nice. It doesn't change the fact that them being Desperate Allies to the sisters would make a player unable to recreate an actual BL publication (which is also "lore" in all definitions of the word, no matter how stupid some might see the book).

I don´t get why. In "Blood of Asaheim" the Sisters are not "allied" with the Wolves.

The Wolves look down upon the Sisters, insult them and treat them like cockroaches. They do not fight side by side, at any point, because the Sisters (like the PDF) are unworthy of it. They whine, cry for help, lose their faith, tremble in fear, smile meekly when insulted and keep their head down. One of them gets so infatuated with the manly wolves that betrays her Order to pass them information. And at the end they die horribly without accomplishing nothing. They do not fight together.

It is not a good book in any sense. It is bolter porn, and rather sexist. But even in you like it, it does not depict the Wolves as allies of the Sisters. They fight alone.

I get your "best-case" theory, but then it should be Battle Brothers to anyone. If you go by the fluff, Sisters and Astartes are wary of each other, as explained in Codex Sisters of Battle (the last one, second edition), page 50. It is long but, to put it short, Space Marines are heretics (seriously, they use the word heretic) and mutants, and prone to become traitors. But they are related to God, so it is complicated. So AoC sounds good to me. And the open war between Wolves and Sisters should push this into DA territory. The Ecclesiarchy ordered the Sisters to exterminate the Wolves, there is blood between them... and the Wolves are traitors in their eyes.

To the OP:
Also... Sisters and Tau? Sisters and Necrons? Being a zealot is part of the Sisters´ ethos: they will rather die. Recently we got Reasonable Marines everywhere, but the Sisters are still crazy. I like them that way.

Last thing: why not Chaos + Imperial guard = Lost and the Damned? Fallen Angels or Alpha Legion can be represented using Battle Brothers between the two armies.

Just my two cents. The rest of the chart looks fine to me.

However I would like to see Space Marines as Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines. Really. I can field a 100% loyalist chapter or a 100% traitor chapter. There should be something in the middle, a chapter that has recently turned traitor and has not yet exchanged the Land Speeders for Defilers.

Wait wait wait huh!? Is this seriously how the book portrayed Sisters of Battle!? My apologies, I really haven't read it, but huh?

Thing is... I like the Wolves. I think they're a fun faction...

.... but the writing about their actions post-Armageddon makes them idiots. Well-intentioned, noble idiots, but idiots all the same. We, the fairly-omniscient readers of 40K Codices and Fluff, *know* how sneaky and insidious Chaos is... and the Wolves, in their noble idiocy, played right into their/its hands.

It's a grimdark setting. Entire regiments of IG are executed, with full honors, following engagement with certain Xeno or Chaos forces. The Wolves, in their misguided noble nature (which... I dunno, they're Vikings. Nothing really that noble about the Vikings, as cool as they are.... they're pirates, brigands and reavers) tried to do something nice and end up causing all sorts of problems for themselves and the Imperium. This is, of course, grimdark as well (and, also, lives up to the cynical adage, "This is what you get for helping people...") but the main problem I have with it is that, provided the information we're given about the factions involved, the only reason the Space Wolves still exist to this day is because of their plot-armor. Any other Chapter, First Founding or not, would have been done away with. Either through Exterminatus or simple brute force of Battlefleets and other Marines coming in to either purge them or force them on a Penance Crusade.

To be fair, as per the fluff, the lowliest Space Wolf is more than a match for any other Space Marine. As per Prospero Burns.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
"Divided we stand" is an axiom within the Imperium.

The Wolves have flat-out denied that they violated the Edict of Nikea because they have Rune Priests, not Psykers or Librarians, and Rune Priests practice the "ancient nature magic of Fenris". This either makes them, A, liars (in direct opposition to the very words of the Emperor) or, B, sorcerers. Guess which one is a heretic?

The Wolves have directly opposed the explicit orders of the Inquisition, killed Grey Knights acting within their legal right to arrest and detain Logan Grimnar, and carried out protracted naval engagements against the GK and the Inquisition and killed an Inquisitor.

They're heretics. Not Chaos-aligned heretics, but heretics. They have directly opposed the legal orders of those who represent the Emperor's Will, and have (stupidly) allowed the taint of Chaos *massive* opportunities to spread throughout the Imperium.

How many of those refugees and soldiers departing from Armageddon carried within them the seeds of corruption? We'll never know. The Inquisition and the Grey Knights were right in ordering their deaths. The risk to countless trillions of other human lives was too great to risk allowing them to live.

The Space Wolves disagreed, and that is what kicked off all their problems, simply because they are too damn stupid to understand how insidious Chaos can be.

That's... nice. It doesn't change the fact that them being Desperate Allies to the sisters would make a player unable to recreate an actual BL publication (which is also "lore" in all definitions of the word, no matter how stupid some might see the book). Again, if you want an allies matrix that doesn't allow one to recreate BL publications, then say so. It can be "lore friendly" to studio only lore. However, your settings of them as Desperate Allies certainly isn't lore friendly to BL lore, which the current GW allies matrix generally is.

Allies Matrix should go by Codex based fluff only, maybe Forgeworld as well seeing as they typically keep things within the universe, Black Library has things like C.S goto for reasons why we'd never used Black Library as true canon.

 StarTrotter wrote:


Wait wait wait huh!? Is this seriously how the book portrayed Sisters of Battle!? My apologies, I really haven't read it, but huh?

There is a link to Furyou Miko's review in page 5 of this thread. And I concur with her.

Or perhaps it is a matter of interpretation, I do not react well to bolter porn. Here is a quote from BoA. I think it brings light to the Wolves attitude towards the Imperium.


On the (off-topic) matter on how the Sisters are depicted, keep in mind that the Sisters get easily murdered and are unable to stop three Chaos Space Marines. And they openly recognize that. Here is a conversation when they see a single CSM:


De Chatelaine is a Canoness with access to Celestians in charge of the defense of a full world. The book is like that all the time. There is not a single point when a Sister does something right, and Wolves destroy thousands of soldiers, including tanks, with ease.

For the record, I like some of Chris Wraight´s books, and I love the Wolves. But the book is... just too much SW fanboyism, and (going on-topic again) the Wolves do not get along with the Sisters/Inquisition even in this book. This is part of their background, and should be represented in the Chart (IMO).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
To be fair, as per the fluff, the lowliest Space Wolf is more than a match for any other Space Marine. As per Prospero Burns.

True.
But then again, a single Ultramarine is worth 1000 Word Bearers, as per the fluff. And then we have Draigo.

I think most of the fluff should be considered propaganda.

Okay sorry for deviating us all from the original part of this lore friendly structure. I just... I dunno these quotes from this book... just scream of bolter port, not knowing even slightly about Sisters Of Battle, making Space Wolves seem like the perfect little dandies, and now the Space Wolf being more than any other Space Marine against their iconic rival and then the Ultramarine = 1000 Word Bearers.... I've really made this stuff deviate xD (and to an extent really made me dissapointed in the fluff xD)

Also it makes me want to read a good SoB book or even a Scholar Progenum/Inquisitor/Ecclesiary book if there are any that exist.

Anyways, as noted, it doesn't seem like the Wolves and SoB work that well together even in this novel. It seems more like they can work in the same zone but never back to back (something I could see Salamanders or BT doing quite well) with the wolves.

 da001 wrote:

But then again, a single Ultramarine is worth 1000 Word Bearers, as per the fluff.

As supported by Know No Fear, where Word Bearers are basically guardsmen.

Wait my apologies. So even in the first founding chapters you have worthless marines and good ones? Word Bearers are just as weak as your basic guardsmen and the largest chapter has more guys and is 1000x stronger then the second largest chapter but then you have Space Wolves that are more powerful than any Space Marine regardless of whether they are bionic or psyker as a commonality? This huh what I don't I mean huh?
And what of the Imperial Fist 100 soldiers for one marine or something? Wouldn't that be a good standardization but now there's 1000x and now being better than the best?

Okay anyways... what are some other parts besides the highly contentious SoBxBT, SoBxSW, and IGxCHAOS that might be possible "fluffy and lore friendly" edits

@da001
That stuff was very disappointing to read. Another BL book that gets the Sisters wrong. I'm saddened to think that, for some people, that will be their first impression of the Sisters.

I can only hope that the Sisters getting proper codex coverage once again will alleviate this in time, making their proper characterisation more well known.

 Mr Morden wrote:
A number of the Sisters die in the initial battle against the swarm but not as many as Cain expects and they achieve much more than he thought - in fact IIRC its the combination of the Sisters laying waste to synapse creatures and Cains headlong assault (ironically) with his vehicle and Jurgan that means they can all retreat safely - plus the Sister were the spearhead as they were leading fanatically devout PDf troops as well. They seem to have been making a successful tactical assault but an error on a strategic level - again not an unusual thing to happen to front line commanders

It still seems like a naive tactical blunder to me. Too naive, given the extensive military training of the Sisters. I like that they do have some level of competence when they fight, but that initial mistake still seems like too much of an error, to me.

 Mr Morden wrote:
IIRC Varen is able to take control over anyone he can see due to his Psyker abilities - I think that there are only five or six Sisters under direct control. [...] The point of having them here was to show the sheer power of Varens power - as you say Cain immediately dismisses the merest idea that the Sisters have turned

My issue with it is that, from what we're shown, he turns an entire Order. We never see or hear of any Sisters resisting his control. Sisters are known for having some of the strongest willpowers around, so it seems odd that he gets to go around turning them at his leisure.

TiamatRoar wrote:
It doesn't matter whether it'd necessarily be chaos or not. If the wolves were made Desperate Allies to the sisters, then anyone fielding an SoB + Wolves army against a Chaos army on the table top would be forced to use Desperate Allies rules, and that would be so ridiculously unfluffy that the Chaos player should be obligated to have his Chaos Lord laugh at how stupid those Imperial forces are. This is likely one of the reasons why the Allies matrix has to take the "best" circumstances into account

Ah, but I was never arguing what the practical effects on the tabletop would be. Just that there's a strong case for them being desperate allies, based upon the fluff.

On a related note, your example about Chaos laughing at the divided Imperials could so easily be applied to the BT-SoB ally rating.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Again, it's also a matter of being able to replicate fluff battles, like the Tau Marines battle brothers scenario. Maybe you and 95% of everyone else hates Blood of Asaheim. But clearly at least one person here likes it. Why should he hypothetically not be allowed to have his wolves and his sisters fight together like they do in an ACTUAL Black Library publicatoin (bad as it is or not) just because it doesn't agree with your idea of the lore? If I'm allowed to have my marines and Tau fight together as battle brothers just because they did so in one book, that should apply to the sisters and wolves as well. The allies matrix needs to confirm to a standard, and this seems to be one of those standards the GW one is confirming to.

As Psienesis said, I'd far rather that BL publications didn't have an influence on the allies matrix, thanks. Also, it doesn't get a pass because people like it. It's still quite deviant from the established lore. As I said earlier, should we accept the years of codex/studion fluff or a single novel written by a freelance author?

And didn't you yourself even agree that the SoB and Wolves just forgetting the incident was "hard to swallow" earlier in the thread? We don't have to just accept something simply because it's published by BL, you know. I can appreciate that there's a well-intentioned side to your argument here, trying to incorporate all the fluff that people may have read so as to not upset as many people, but that just doesn't work sometimes. We can either accept that the Sisters and Wolves are massively different in their mindset and have engaged in some pretty serious warfare, or that the two are willing to just forgive and forget an attempted purge. In this situation, I'd view going for the studio fluff as the more rational option.

TiamatRoar wrote:
GW wants players to have options. They've made this VERY clear when they said all lore is valid.

So a random BL can come along, write a faction completely out of character, and be accepted as canon? That's certainly not a situation that I would enjoy.

TiamatRoar wrote:
If you want an allies matrix that ignores the novels then say so. Don't go shoving it around a discussion involving GW's ally matrix, though

Having a different opinion is not shoving, bud. We've both been quite firm on our positions, so neither of us can really accuse the other of "shoving".

Orks and Imperial Guard should be battle brothers.

In the old Waaagh The Orks book, you could take imperial guard, human mercs, ogryn mercs and imperial vehicles in the Blood Axe army. You could lead human units with ork characters.

 da001 wrote:

But then again, a single Ultramarine is worth 1000 Word Bearers, as per the fluff. And then we have Draigo.

Mark of Calth ?You mean when 300 UM ambush 600 WB and not one UM dead ?

I think the main problem is sisters and SM, not sisters and wolves...


One thing puzzels me...Are BT worshipers or not ? There are lot of guys on B&C who think they are not....

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

But then again, a single Ultramarine is worth 1000 Word Bearers, as per the fluff.

As supported by Know No Fear, where Word Bearers are basically guardsmen.

I was thinking on Know No Fear and Battle for the Abyss... there is something in Ultramarines and Wolves that makes BL writers go crazy with testosterone overload. Haven´t read Mark of Calth yet, but I truly believe what DarthMarko said.

@StarTrotter: about half the BL books are bolter porn, but there are some really good books out there. And bolter porn can be enjoyable if it is about your favourite faction.

@Troike: yes I hope the new "codex" (update, big faq, whatever) gives us something good. However, hope is the first step... We will see for ourselves soon enough.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Orks and Imperial Guard should be battle brothers.

In the old Waaagh The Orks book, you could take imperial guard, human mercs, ogryn mercs and imperial vehicles in the Blood Axe army. You could lead human units with ork characters.

^This. Also, isn´t there something about Khorne + Orks? Old style Stormboyz?

 DarthMarko wrote:



One thing puzzels me...Are BT worshipers or not ? There are lot of guys on B&C who think they are not....

Not sure... their background recently changed .
At the risk of being stoned to death by BT players, I will ignore the BT line in the Allies Chart, and treat them like vanilla marines. If you think about it, Salamanders, Marines Malevolent, Carcharodons, Ultramarines and Iron Hands should have different entries in the Chart... but it will be too complicated. Let the BT be another part of the vanilla SM.

I always read and saw the BT as believers - more so than the other Chapters and this is confirmed in all regards in the latest Codex - although to me at least it was heavily suggested in previous editions and again confirmed in BL novels - esp Helsreach.

There is a issue with the current Allies Chart - even mroe than before - before it was just stupid and now it flat out contradicts the Codex text. Most people want to read it that the BT follow standard Codex Marines but there is an argument for the the older (and patently wrong) table being the RAW.

@ Troike

I guess we disagree about the Sisters tactics in that one - they seemed to have set tactical goals which they were achieving but at the expense of likely being wiped out as resistance increased.

re the Sisters being taken over - again that's the whole point - if he can do it to Sisters - no one is safe, unless you happen to have a Priah with you....... They are being held up as a pargons (even by the one person in the book who doesn't like them) to demonstrate the sheer power the Chaos Warmaster has.

Total numbers of Sisters taken over are never shown - but there are five or six, IIRC with the Warmaster and as they will be being shown off that might be all he has. Its likely a small outpost and the signficance overblown in the rumours and propoganda.......

I'll have a read through over the weekend and see if I can extract more specifics.

I thought the sisters that were controlled jumped off a cliff rather than let him keep controlling them? Been a while since I read that so maybe I'm thinking of a different incident, but the point of the control was that resistance was utterly impossible in all regards, but also that it was actual puppet control, unlike say, selling your soul to Slaanesh technically of your own free will because you fell in love with it.

 da001 wrote:

Spoiler:

Until I got here I thought you were all stuck-up bitches, wearing a pale mockery of our sacred armour and pretending to fight like we do. I thought you were pious and arrogant.’
Callia suppressed a smile. ‘Stuck-up bitches,’ she said, amused. ‘That’s… candid.’
Jorundur shrugged. ‘I try to be. And don’t be surprised – our memories are long. Fenris has been attacked by your kind more than once.’
‘Not in living memory.’
Jorundur snorted. ‘In our living memory. You may have forgotten, but we have not. We tell sagas of it. We sing of how we sent your priests home, their robes stripped from their backs and their warships breaking open around them.’
Callia sighed. ‘I’m sure you do,’ she said. ‘But then you are a warlike people. Fenris has been attacked by the Inquisition too. You make enemies easily, it seems.’
‘We make no enemies but Traitors and xenos. If others choose to get in our way, that’s their business’

.

Well, one point of the book that's valid is that the majority of the sisters are a "new generation" compared to the latest incident that happened to the wolves in the vast majority of cases. Sisters "only" live as long as a normal human. Depending on the level of rejuvenat they receive, maybe they live up to 200 years or so at most ( I imagine rejuvant is reserved for only the greatest sisters though, and most of them probably die in combat before then anyways). Rejuvenat is typically portrayed as only reserved for heros of utmost importance the Imperium, like the Cardinal of Vraks (before he eventually died of old age and Xaphan took over), so most sisters that don't die in battle probably only live up to 100 years old or so with Imperium medical technology. The Ecclesiarchy incident in the fluff took place 111 years before 999.

Also, it is a huge galaxy. To some sisters, the wolves and their stories would be more far off distant legends than anything else. If anything, perhaps it really is the wolves who would be more likely to have personal tensions due to the fact that for them, it really IS personal, while to the average battle sister out of the many MANY battle sisters in the galaxy, it is but a curiousity and hearsay (hearsay, not heresy, in this context). However, at least going by BoA (though I haven't really seen much case otherwise for the fluff in general), the wolves only really care about traitors and xenos. Again, the Imperium shooting itself is standard procedure.

...Space Wolves being better than everyone else is also standard procedure in Black Library books (and arguably in Studio Fluff considering the crap they get away with and things like Logan being elected leader. EVERYONE at GW and BL seem to have a hard-on for the wolves). It's like, oh hey, yet another publication made everyone suck compared to the wolves. And now for the weather! If anything, BoA would be contradicting everything else if it didn't have the wolves be better than the sisters, because according to everyone with affiliations to GW, the wolves are ten-thousand times better than everyone. Besides maybe Matt Ward's Ultramarines. One could argue that the Battle Sisters being desperate allies with the wolves isn't "lore friendly" because the lore practically demands everyone love the wolves in-universe due to their Mary Sue status no matter what they do. "The wolves are loved or at least tolerated by everyone no matter what they do, so it is more lore-friendly for them to be AoC with the sisters cause going by the lore, they can do no wrong." In this hypothetical case on these hypothetical grounds, ignoring other arguments about what's "logical" and what isn't for a moment, what you should argue for is that the chart should NOT be lore-friendly because the lore is stupid. But then that leads to the problem of having to be selective about lore instead of following a standard.

Actually, if memory serves me, few sisters even live up to 100 years. The mortallity rate, or so memory serves me, is extremely high within the sisters and many have joked that 30 is old for such a SoB.

Let's be honest. The boner isn't just for SW. It's for all LOYALIST SPEES MUHRINEZ! Just look at the fluff of Ultramarines compared to Word Bearers. Heck look at a book of SM versus CSM. Quite a few will have the loyalists just ripping through. Admittedly I'd love to see the Wolves put down (you don't know how much I was rooting for the revenge of Magnus to actually do something like screw up their land, make them lose lots of guys, and just cripple them). Also to be blunt BoA just seems like a terrible piece of fiction which cis relatively sexist, bolter pronish, and stupid where the SoB are absolute dunces, guardsmen fools, and only the SPEES MURHINES CAN DO ANYTHING! And as usual it's an undersized group of them.

Mr Morden wrote:I always read and saw the BT as believers - more so than the other Chapters and this is confirmed in all regards in the latest Codex - although to me at least it was heavily suggested in previous editions and again confirmed in BL novels - esp Helsreach.

From what I've read, a lot of fans just did not want to see the Black Templars as believers in the God-Emperor, regardless of all the hints dropped in previous codices regarding their traditions. This included some freelance novel authors who either picked up on the idea from the community, or just interpreted it the same way. Unfortunately, given how "canon" is generally regarded in the community, this then led to a self-perpetuating conviction regarding this topic where opinions became "evidence".
All the new SM Codex did was having the BT "come out of the closet" and finally confirm what was being hinted at for so long. A number of the aforementioned fans don't like this development, however, and so they continue to argue against it, or at least decry this addition as a "change" when in fact it was merely addition or clarification.

TiamatRoar wrote:Well, one point of the book that's valid is that the majority of the sisters are a "new generation" compared to the latest incident that happened to the wolves in the vast majority of cases. [...] The Ecclesiarchy incident in the fluff took place 111 years before 999. [...] Also, it is a huge galaxy. To some sisters, the wolves and their stories would be more far off distant legends than anything else.

That wouldn't really change much. Conflicts such as these are certainly recorded in the Sisterhood's annals and their stories passed on from generation to generation, just like it happens in the Marine Chapters, and just like how the good relationship with the Black Templars came to be. The Sisterhood is much more networked like the Guard or the Astartes, with much transfer of personnel and knowledge between the convents. It is, for all intents and purposes, a single organisation with a single leader at the top, and the coordination of their many arms is what makes the Adepta Sororitas such a successful faction in terms of influencing Imperial policies.
To point at the Armageddon 3 website - if Canoness Carmina is aware that the Blood Angels Successors suffer from geneseed degradation because she knows of rumours within the Sororitas, I would assume she'd be aware of her own organisation having fought a War of Faith against some other Imperial faction.

TiamatRoar wrote:If anything, BoA would be contradicting everything else if it didn't have the wolves be better than the sisters, because according to everyone with affiliations to GW, the wolves are ten-thousand times better than everyone. Besides maybe Matt Ward's Ultramarines.

Not even the Ultras are remotely approaching the Space Wolves in this regard - I think it is chiefly the posterboy status of the Ultras, and again word of mouth within the community, that judges them unfairly compared to how the majority still seems to see the SW.
From what I've read, the Ultras are just really lucky, whereas the SW are plain better and can afford anything without fear of consequences, which is what made them so boring to me. For example, is there anything so silly in the Ultras' fluff as the Space Wolves managing to resist and throw back the armed might of the entire Segmentum Pacificus during the Age of Apostasy? We're talking roughly a fifth of the IoM here. And this isn't even novel fluff but was featured in - get this, irony over irony - the 2nd edition Codex: Sisters of Battle. trololol
Honestly, after reading that bit I just figured they should throw the Wolves into the Eye of Terror already. An army capable of pulling this off should have no problem eradicating the remaining CSM.

Also, was that really quotes from this Blood at Asaheim novel earlier? Wow, from Furyou's review I thought it was bad, but I didn't think it would be that bad. Saddening.

 Lynata wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:I always read and saw the BT as believers - more so than the other Chapters and this is confirmed in all regards in the latest Codex - although to me at least it was heavily suggested in previous editions and again confirmed in BL novels - esp Helsreach.

From what I've read, a lot of fans just did not want to see the Black Templars as believers in the God-Emperor, regardless of all the hints dropped in previous codices regarding their traditions. This included some freelance novel authors who either picked up on the idea from the community, or just interpreted it the same way. Unfortunately, given how "canon" is generally regarded in the community, this then led to a self-perpetuating conviction regarding this topic where opinions became "evidence".
All the new SM Codex did was having the BT "come out of the closet" and finally confirm what was being hinted at for so long. A number of the aforementioned fans don't like this development, however, and so they continue to argue against it, or at least decry this addition as a "change" when in fact it was merely addition or clarification.

No...
I can easilly pull up a selective memory card on that matter...Blind faith in the Emperor, leader of mankind =/= worshiping unconfirmed warp entity...

 Lynata wrote:
That wouldn't really change much. Conflicts such as these are certainly recorded in the Sisterhood's annals and their stories passed on from generation to generation, just like it happens in the Marine Chapters, and just like how the good relationship with the Black Templars came to be. The Sisterhood is much more networked like the Guard or the Astartes, with much transfer of personnel and knowledge between the convents. It is, for all intents and purposes, a single organisation with a single leader at the top, and the coordination of their many arms is what makes the Adepta Sororitas such a successful faction in terms of influencing Imperial policies.
To point at the Armageddon 3 website - if Canoness Carmina is aware that the Blood Angels Successors suffer from geneseed degradation because she knows of rumours within the Sororitas, I would assume she'd be aware of her own organisation having fought a War of Faith against some other Imperial faction.

And she's also not Desperate Allies with the Blood Angels nor does she show any personal distaste of them whatsoever (in fact, she's very lenient about the thing, saying "I've heard rumours of bad things" rather than "As we all know, they're vile but this is even more vile!"). The point is that to be Desperate Allies between two organizations that work ostensibly under the same umbrella (the Imperium/Emperor) would require a level of tension beyond just "stories passed down the annals".

Not even the Ultras are remotely approaching the Space Wolves in this regard - I think it is chiefly the posterboy status of the Ultras, and again word of mouth within the community, that judges them unfairly compared to how the majority still seems to see the SW.
From what I've read, the Ultras are just really lucky, whereas the SW are plain better and can afford anything without fear of consequences, which is what made them so boring to me. For example, is there anything so silly in the Ultras' fluff as the Space Wolves managing to resist and throw back the armed might of the entire Segmentum Pacificus during the Age of Apostasy? We're talking roughly a fifth of the IoM here. And this isn't even novel fluff but was featured in - get this, irony over irony - the 2nd edition Codex: Sisters of Battle. trololol

Yea. Ultramarines could be just mostly propaganda with the words of the codex. Fluff-wise they're similar to other Space Marines. Better than every non-Marine but still not reaching wolf levels.

As an aside, I actually referred to that event earlier (at least, I think I did) as one of the reasons why even the sisters should be smart enough to know that, no matter how much the wolves bare their fangs at the ecclesiarchy, they can at least be relied on to fight enemies of the Imperium. Any sister that knows her history would be VERY aware of Cardinal Bucharis' plague of unbelief (as if it being in the 2E SoB codex didn't make that obvious enough). Again, as far as we know, there isn't a single time in the Wolves' 10,000 years of history where, in the middle of battle with allied Imperial forces, they went and shot them in the back. Yea, I wouldn't be too surprised if it did happen sometime or another in 10,000 years since 10,000 years is a long friggin' time, but no more than any other Imperial organization (and likely less often than Blood Angels and probably Dark Angels, though the latter might have successfully covered up all the times it happened). The wolves' 10,000 years of history of combatting enemies of the Imperium is NOT a secret. If they weren't reliable regarding THAT, they would have officially been declared heretics long ago. The fact that they aren't, and the fact that it's bloody obvious to anyone why they haven't been, including all but the most blind of sisters I imagine, should be enough to allow a sister to at least maintain focus when fighting allied to a wolf.

Again, if the wolves fired on the Ecclesiarchy WITHOUT a warning, then that'd definitely be a case for Desperate Allies. Assuming they did give a warning though (we don't know either way due to how vague that quote is, but just hypothetically assuming), however, and presumably have always done so in the past, it's silly to keep One Eye Open against someone who you KNOW won't shoot you in the back in the middle of battle, while there are baby-eating merciless murderors in front of you (not just Chaos, but Orks and Dark Eldar, too). Sisters and Wolves are trained to value duty above all else. This isn't the real world where we could have selfish people who let personal pride affect their military duty. Both Sisters and Wolves have been trained almost since birth (literally in many sisters' case) to always follow their duty to the Emperor first and foremost above everything else. Again, if a sister had to explain to her cannoness that she missed the shot because she was worried about the wolf behind her, that canoness should give that sister a good Blaming. Furthermore,, sisters are human beings capable of forethought. Such as what to say to the Emperor if they fail in their duty and die. I'm sure more than one sister, if she really hated the wolves that much that she couldn't concentrate in battle, would also stop to consider what the meeting would be like if she had to explain to the Emperor that she failed to take the shot because she was too busy worrying about one of his astartes that was her ally.

That hypothetical scenario of a wolf + SoB desperate allies tabletop army allied against a chaos, ork, Dark Elf army just gets hilarious when you imagine the look on the Chaos/DE/Ork player's face if the SoB + Wolf player fails a One Eye Open roll at a critical moment. Hell, a Tau or Eldar player would also be justified in having a little IC roleplay of having their character be amused (or amazed) by the stupidity of the army against them.

Also, come to think about it, your counter argument to their duty against Chaos, "They see Wolves and Chaos as one and the same" , makes no sense because if THAT was the case, the sisters wouldn't be allying with the wolves AT ALL in the first place.

Honestly, after reading that bit I just figured they should throw the Wolves into the Eye of Terror already. An army capable of pulling this off should have no problem eradicating the remaining CSM.

They did. 13th Company, remember? 10,000 years of being in the Eye of Terror and still kicking Chaos butt.

Again, if the wolves fired on the Ecclesiarchy WITHOUT a warning, then that'd definitely be a case for Desperate Allies.

They did.

The Ecc entered the Fenris system to investigate the claims of heresy, the SW fired on them without warning. The Ecc left, went and got the battle-group, the war started.

This is in C:SW, 5th Ed.

 Psienesis wrote:

Again, if the wolves fired on the Ecclesiarchy WITHOUT a warning, then that'd definitely be a case for Desperate Allies.

They did.

The Ecc entered the Fenris system to investigate the claims of heresy, the SW fired on them without warning. The Ecc left, went and got the battle-group, the war started.

I saw the quote. It doesn't say that.

Well, what *does* it say then?

That the Ecclesiarchy opened fire on the Space Wolves? That they were told to leave and refused to leave (hint: that means the SW are guilty of heresy)? That there was an orbital "weapons malfunction" that the Ecc simply did not accept as an excuse?

Sorry, given the actions of the Space Wolves over their history (and, specifically, the past decade or so in studio publications), you're not going to convince me that Ecclesiarchal or Inquisition forces are going to do more than go into battle with the Wolves only if there is, literally, no other option.

And I can *definitely* see certain Inquisitorial factions using the opportunity to ensure that the Wolves present "fight well, with honor... but, sadly, suffer 100% casualties to the fire of the enemy".

It's exact phrasing is "Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns". Apart from that, the rest of what Psienesis says is definetely true, the Ecclesiarchy is there to investigate the Wolves for paganism, and they did call in the Sisters a year later.

No mention of any warnings being given, and it's described as "amazing" that the Wolves opened fire, which itself implies that the Wolves did not issue any warnings. So yeah, the Wolves are the ones who got aggressive first, and likely without giving warning.

 Psienesis wrote:
And I can *definitely* see certain Inquisitorial factions using the opportunity to ensure that the Wolves present "fight well, with honor... but, sadly, suffer 100% casualties to the fire of the enemy".

It needn't be that. Ork snipers can appear so suddenly and inflict such brutal casualties, you know.

Those Orkish Kommandos. They're so kunning. It is just like those vile Xenos to develop weapons with the *exact* ballistic parameters of a Vindicare's rifle...

And the shooter was probably wearing blue clothes because he just shot the Space Wolf leader, who was suspicious in the eyes of the Inquisition.

TiamatRoar wrote:The point is that to be Desperate Allies between two organizations that work ostensibly under the same umbrella (the Imperium/Emperor) would require a level of tension beyond just "stories passed down the annals".

Like open warfare?

Really, you make it sound as if the Sisters would just "forgive and forget", when they're one of the most paranoid and fanatical organisations in existence. The case with the SW is beyond mere suspicion or rumours or even "stories", it's a logged event from their records about sanctioned warfare following the murder of Ecclesiarchal investigators who wanted to check them for signs of heresy. This isn't just hearsay - as an organisation this is first hand experience. Apart from that the Sisters would even take "stories passed down in annals" quite seriously.

TiamatRoar wrote:As an aside, I actually referred to that event earlier (at least, I think I did) as one of the reasons why even the sisters should be smart enough to know that, no matter how much the wolves bare their fangs at the ecclesiarchy, they can at least be relied on to fight enemies of the Imperium. Any sister that knows her history would be VERY aware of Cardinal Bucharis' plague of unbelief (as if it being in the 2E SoB codex didn't make that obvious enough). Again, as far as we know, there isn't a single time in the Wolves' 10,000 years of history where, in the middle of battle with allied Imperial forces, they went and shot them in the back.

The Plague of Unbelief does not change the Space Wolves' reputation at all - they merely defended their world. In fact, their inaction following this attack could very well be condemned as carelessness. Why didn't the Wolves help liberate the oppressed people?

Also, this event happened way, way earlier, before the Sisterhood was even founded. Yet suddenly they are supposed to believe in those stories? You're argueing against your own point with this one.

TiamatRoar wrote:Assuming they did give a warning though (we don't know either way due to how vague that quote is, but just hypothetically assuming), however, and presumably have always done so in the past, it's silly to keep One Eye Open against someone who you KNOW won't shoot you in the back in the middle of battle, while there are baby-eating merciless murderors in front of you (not just Chaos, but Orks and Dark Eldar, too).

I do not agree. Considering the stories about Space Marines propagated by the Ecclesiarchy, and the fact of armed warfare between the two parties, and the murder of a priestly delegation - I for one would definitively keep an eye on those guys. They don't have to have a "history" of shooting people in the back, merely be under suspicion of doing so in the future. And considering historical events as well as the "hearsay" about the SW within the ranks of the Ministorum, I remain convinced that this is the case. After all, why would they have shot those priests if they were pure of body and soul? And if they are not pure, what are they, then...? Try to think like a Sister would.

TiamatRoar wrote:Again, if a sister had to explain to her cannoness that she missed the shot because she was worried about the wolf behind her, that canoness should give that sister a good Blaming.

You're missing that with the Sisters, scepticism and wariness against corruption is part of their duty, and failing to recognise it would mean failing the Emperor.

TiamatRoar wrote:Also, come to think about it, your counter argument to their duty against Chaos, "They see Wolves and Chaos as one and the same" , makes no sense because if THAT was the case, the sisters wouldn't be allying with the wolves AT ALL in the first place.

Can you please STOP misquoting me? This is the second time you are acting as if I ever said that. If they saw SW and Chaos as one and the same, I would be argueing for Come the Apocalypse, not Desperate Allies. Desperate Allies is the justified but unconfirmed suspicion that they are close to falling, or perhaps already are corrupted and just biding their time.

TiamatRoar wrote:They did. 13th Company, remember? 10,000 years of being in the Eye of Terror and still kicking Chaos butt.

Yeah, but they haven't slain a single Chaos Primarch yet. What gives?!

Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition are two different things. I suspect many sisters would be appalled if they were asked to be snipers tasked with shooting their own allies in the middle of battle. That's what the Official Assassinorium is for.

The Plague of Unbelief does not change the Space Wolves' reputation at all - they merely defended their world. In fact, their inaction following this attack could very well be condemned as carelessness. Why didn't the Wolves help liberate the oppressed people?

Also, this event happened way, way earlier, before the Sisterhood was even founded. Yet suddenly they are supposed to believe in those stories? You're argueing against your own point with this one.

The point is that story is just as valid to a sister who's never met a Space Wolf person as the stories of Space Wolves openly resisting various Imperial factions as well, along with many other stories and legends of Space Wolves fighting for the Imperium.

As an aside, I've been researching into Studio Fluff a bit more and Space Wolves are listed as being a possible ally to Witch Hunters back in the Witch Hunters Codex. Perhaps you may have all your ideas of how sisters of battle and wolves interact, but GW seems to be consistently disagreeing with you all. Of course, without interviewing them, I can't say WHY they seem to be disagreeing with you, but I'm going to assume they know their own fluff and how their sisters and wolves would react on such things better than you all do.

Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...

Also no matter how you put them, they hold no authority over SM (unlike "I" which is on another level )...

P.S. I think Lynata cheered for Bucharis


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TiamatRoar wrote:
Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition are two different things. I suspect many sisters would be appalled if they were asked to be snipers tasked with shooting their own allies in the middle of battle. That's what the Official Assassinorium is for.

The Plague of Unbelief does not change the Space Wolves' reputation at all - they merely defended their world. In fact, their inaction following this attack could very well be condemned as carelessness. Why didn't the Wolves help liberate the oppressed people?

Also, this event happened way, way earlier, before the Sisterhood was even founded. Yet suddenly they are supposed to believe in those stories? You're argueing against your own point with this one.

The point is that story is just as valid to a sister who's never met a Space Wolf person as the stories of Space Wolves openly resisting various Imperial factions as well, along with many other stories and legends of Space Wolves fighting for the Imperium.

As an aside, I've been researching into Studio Fluff a bit more and Space Wolves are listed as being a possible ally to Witch Hunters back in the Witch Hunters Codex. Perhaps you may have all your ideas of how sisters of battle and wolves interact, but GW seems to be consistently disagreeing with you all. Of course, without interviewing them, I can't say WHY they seem to be disagreeing with you, but I'm going to assume they know their own fluff and how their sisters and wolves would react on such things better than you all do.

You sir deserve an exalt

This is too much to read but has it be suggested that maybe a roll off is done before the game to determine the status of the relationship? Like dark angels and space wolves. Both are astartes so they can and will work together as needed but on a roll of 4-6 they are battle brothers and a roll of 1-3 they are convenience susggesting the rivalry is strained.

TiamatRoar wrote:The point is that story is just as valid to a sister who's never met a Space Wolf person as the stories of Space Wolves openly resisting various Imperial factions as well, along with many other stories and legends of Space Wolves fighting for the Imperium.

No, it's not. We do not even know if this is known to the wider Imperium, considering that this event was limited to a section of space cut off from Terra and the rest by a huge Warp Storm, and that everyone who was sent to Fenris is dead.
It is also an event that happened several millennia earlier, and did not involve either the Thorian Ecclesiarchy nor the Sisters of Battle, who would have their own records about the battles they themselves fought, and the investigations they themselves carried out.

You first argueing that they'd forget about Fenris because it happened 100 years ago, but then claiming that stories about an event that happened 4.000 years earlier should be relevant (otherwise you would not have brought it up), is quite simply a contradiction.

TiamatRoar wrote:As an aside, I've been researching into Studio Fluff a bit more and Space Wolves are listed as being a possible ally to Witch Hunters back in the Witch Hunters Codex.

And as I said earlier, I am in favour of making them Desperate Allies - how does this contradict GW? Whose writers are apparently quite fine with creating serious conflict between the Ecclesiarchy and the Wolves up to and including planetary invasion?

DarthMarko wrote:Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...

It doesn't get any more true regardless of how often you repeat it. As per Codex fluff, the Ecclesiarchy was founded by Fatidicus and is built upon his teachings, as well as those of Sebastian Thor. Just because you feel like goading Ecclesiarchy players with this little theory of yours does not make this supposed link any more abstract. Contrary to what you are trying to tell us, "Lorgar came up with a cult" does not mean that every single cult that followed over the millennia of history afterwards must absolutely be related to him or his weird book. You'd have to wait until some writer actually makes that connection, but I don't see this happening in studio fluff, given how little of the Horus Heresy ideas GW has adopted into the rulebooks (null?).

It's also worth pointing out that, in studio fluff, the Emperor gives a rat's ass about religion. In the Index Astartes article, the only reason provided as to why he was angry at the Word Bearers was that they were wasting time they should've spent conquering more planets.

If you're placing the freelancer novels above the codices, fine - this is a valid option, given how fluff works in 40k. You can even believe in this link between Lorgar and the Ecclesiarchy if it makes you happy. But please stop trying to sell this as an irrevocable fact - somebody might actually end up believing it.

DarthMarko wrote:Also no matter how you put them, they hold no authority over SM (unlike "I" which is on another level )...

The High Lords, of which the Ecclesiarch is part of, on the other hand do.

DarthMarko wrote:P.S. I think Lynata cheered for Bucharis

How did you get this idea?

namiel wrote:This is too much to read but has it be suggested that maybe a roll off is done before the game to determine the status of the relationship? Like dark angels and space wolves. Both are astartes so they can and will work together as needed but on a roll of 4-6 they are battle brothers and a roll of 1-3 they are convenience susggesting the rivalry is strained.

Hmm, it's an interesting idea, but wouldn't this mess with people's personal fluff about their armies if relations change at random?