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 Sir Arun wrote:
GK and SoB have a special relationship

Ha!

I have another one:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Perhaps. However, the Ecclesiarchy "let sleeping dogs lie". So that matter's settled.

Settled, but I would hardly think forgotten. The Ecclesiarchy and Sisters are not the sort to forgive and forget, after all.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Again, burden of proof that it isn't doesn't lie on my shoulders, becaues the allies matrix right now agrees with me.

The matrix ain't exactly perfect, though. This is the same thing that had the SoB and BT as desperate allies, when they'd co-operated in the fluff before. They got along worse than the SoB and SW, who had actively fought in the fluff.

I'm confused. How am I suppose to run my Corsair raiding force when Eldar/DEldar are not BB?

Furthermore (and someone else can bring up the pic), shouldn't BA and Necrons at least be AoC?

It's nice that GW paid more attention to the fluff than most people gave them credit for. Things like remembering (apparently) Ork Mercenaries and Eldar corsairs when they devised the allies chart that hilariously have people crying "Foul!". Even the Tau Battle Brothers case actually happened.

Really, the only outstanding issues are "fought side by side with the marines" and renegade guard. Well, some of the desperate allies are kinda wird but those are desperate allies, which, like I said, was probably meant to give you an outlet for the wierd (which, according to GW, the SoB and Space Wolves are apparently not).

TiamatRoar wrote:They're accused of heresy. They've yet to be convicted of it, and we've yet to see any fluff that it's specifically the sisters of battle that accused them of it. Maybe the accusations just come from ecclesiarchs or the Inquisition, with the sisters having a neutral stance on the matter, like was the case with the Grey Knights during the months of shame. We don't know.

If you really do want to discuss this further ...
When the accused opens fire on the investigator, I'm sure that this would generally be regarded as an admission of guilt - even today, in our not-quite-as-paranoid society, this would be common sense. And arguably it was enough to send a force of Battle Sisters to censure the Wolves.
As for these "Months of Shame" - even if you adopt this novel fluff into your perception of the setting (which I think would be a mistake as it'd make the Inquisition look even less serious if they just disregard the murder of one of their number "haha, it was the Wolves, they do that from time to time ... gotta understand that!"), then the Sisters would not be aware of this and thus would have no opinion at all.

TiamatRoar wrote:Well, at any rate, like I said, GW's current allies matrix agrees with my interpretation by all indications. So I'll stick to that. You're welcome to take an interpretation that contradicts the allies matrix as it is though if you'd like.

Given that the Allies matrix also tried to tell me that the SoB are Desperate Allies with BT, of course I will.

The relationship of SW+SoB on that chart was hardly the only thing I and others deemed strange at the time it was released...

 Lynata wrote:
If you really do want to discuss this further ...
When the accused opens fire on the investigator, I'm sure that this would generally be regarded as an admission of guilt - even today, in our not-quite-as-paranoid society, this would be common sense. And arguably it was enough to send a force of Battle Sisters to censure the Wolves.

You can look at what you think would be "common sense" or not all you want, but the established RESULTS speak for themselves. The wolves today are not officially branded as heretics (far from it, if the 13th Black Crusade election of Logan as Space Marine leader is any indication) , so apparently, for whatever reason, regardless of what you interpret would have been the sensible reaction of the Imperium, the Imperium decided differently. You can speculate why that's the case (my own speculation: Because the Imperium firing on itself is standard procedure), but you can't speculate on the end results.

As for these "Months of Shame" - even if you adopt this novel fluff into your perception of the setting (which I think would be a mistake as it'd make the Inquisition look even less serious if they just disregard the murder of one of their number "haha, it was the Wolves, they do that from time to time ... gotta understand that!"), then the Sisters would not be aware of this and thus would have no opinion at all.

As an example of how standard procedure the Imperium shooting itself is, if one hypothetically includes this novel as part of their canon, many other members of the inquisition in this novel were thinking of their own ways to dispose of Kysnos as well. Again, the Imperium is constantly shooting itself. It's standard procedure. What's not standard procedure and generally not depicted in most (if any) fluff sources, however, is Imperial forces worried about such an event (being shot by their own Imperium allies) in the middle of battle when fighting alongside other Imperial forces (Celestial Lions don't count because they weren't fighting alongside any other Imperial forces at the time).

TiamatRoar wrote:Well, at any rate, like I said, GW's current allies matrix agrees with my interpretation by all indications. So I'll stick to that. You're welcome to take an interpretation that contradicts the allies matrix as it is though if you'd like.

Given that the Allies matrix also tried to tell me that the SoB are Desperate Allies with BT, of course I will.

I like to think GW made a mistake with that as well as realized their mistake, and it's corrected with C: SM 6th Edition. Although a FAQ on that would be nice. But then they'd have to like, actually say something about the allies matrix, and they seem averse to that.

You really need to read Blood of Asahaim, there is too much of "your version" Lynata...Don't blow this out of proportion, please.....

Anyway, so what if SW did eat some sisters ? You are forgeting "smear my armor with holy blood thingy and butchering by the FT ??? " ...And don't forget to SW sisters are bloody heretics...God Emperor and landing with their filthy feet on sacred Fenris to preach Lorgars words ???...sheesh...

Again, read the book, it might clear some things for you...

O yes - DA would kill them wihout blinking if they heard about the fallen, mutant BA in rt and br MODE ??? Even GK ??? ....hm....

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
If you really do want to discuss this further ...
When the accused opens fire on the investigator, I'm sure that this would generally be regarded as an admission of guilt - even today, in our not-quite-as-paranoid society, this would be common sense. And arguably it was enough to send a force of Battle Sisters to censure the Wolves.

You can look at what you think would be "common sense" or not all you want, but the established RESULTS speak for themselves. The wolves today are not officially branded as heretics (far from it, if the 13th Black Crusade election of Logan as Space Marine leader is any indication) , so apparently, for whatever reason, regardless of what you interpret would have been the sensible reaction of the Imperium, the Imperium decided differently. You can speculate why that's the case (my own speculation: Because the Imperium firing on itself is standard procedure), but you can't speculate on the end results.

As for these "Months of Shame" - even if you adopt this novel fluff into your perception of the setting (which I think would be a mistake as it'd make the Inquisition look even less serious if they just disregard the murder of one of their number "haha, it was the Wolves, they do that from time to time ... gotta understand that!"), then the Sisters would not be aware of this and thus would have no opinion at all.

As an example of how standard procedure the Imperium shooting itself is, if one hypothetically includes this novel as part of their canon, many other members of the inquisition in this novel were thinking of their own ways to dispose of Kysnos as well. Again, the Imperium is constantly shooting itself. It's standard procedure. What's not standard procedure and generally not depicted in most (if any) fluff sources, however, is Imperial forces worried about such an event (being shot by their own Imperium allies) in the middle of battle when fighting alongside other Imperial forces (Celestial Lions don't count because they weren't fighting alongside any other Imperial forces at the time).

TiamatRoar wrote:Well, at any rate, like I said, GW's current allies matrix agrees with my interpretation by all indications. So I'll stick to that. You're welcome to take an interpretation that contradicts the allies matrix as it is though if you'd like.

Given that the Allies matrix also tried to tell me that the SoB are Desperate Allies with BT, of course I will.

I like to think GW made a mistake with that as well as realized their mistake, and it's corrected with C: SM 6th Edition. Although a FAQ on that would be nice. But then they'd have to like, actually say something about the allies matrix, and they seem averse to that.

Actually (hopefully somebody can prove me wrong), I believe that BT are still required to use their own personall alliance chart rather than the standard SM's

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
If you really do want to discuss this further ...
When the accused opens fire on the investigator, I'm sure that this would generally be regarded as an admission of guilt - even today, in our not-quite-as-paranoid society, this would be common sense. And arguably it was enough to send a force of Battle Sisters to censure the Wolves.

You can look at what you think would be "common sense" or not all you want, but the established RESULTS speak for themselves. The wolves today are not officially branded as heretics (far from it, if the 13th Black Crusade election of Logan as Space Marine leader is any indication) , so apparently, for whatever reason, regardless of what you interpret would have been the sensible reaction of the Imperium, the Imperium decided differently. You can speculate why that's the case (my own speculation: Because the Imperium firing on itself is standard procedure), but you can't speculate on the end results.

By who ??? Fanatics, who have no authority over SM..??? And they accuse the first founding legion ?
Censure on the first founding legion/chapter ? Not happening in 40k...EVER...

 StarTrotter wrote:

Actually (hopefully somebody can prove me wrong), I believe that BT are still required to use their own personall alliance chart rather than the standard SM's

I don't think there's been an official confirmation either way. However, the fact that the Black Templar are stated to have fought "side by side" with the sisters in 6th Ed Codex: Space Marines means that SOMEWHERE there's a mistake. Whether the mistake is with that bit of fluff, or whether the mistake is with the original allies matrix (and it's been presumably corrected by the removal of Black Templars from it) is unknown, but there's definately a mistake somewhere there.

As I prefer to go by a "latest fluff overrides prior fluff" code of belief, I lean towards the latter case, myself. However, GW writers not paying attention or whatever else is DEFINATELY not out of the question.

IMO if BT are worshipers they are cool with them...If they are loyal to the IT (still), hm......not so much...

DarthMarko wrote:Anyway, so what if SW did eat some sisters ? You are forgeting "smear my armor with holy blood thingy and butchering by the FT ??? " ...

The Bloodtide incident is not known to the Sisterhood, and the Fleshtearers are about to be excommunicated. I would actually flag them as "Come the Apocalypse" if they were a standalone force ("By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes."), but given that the BA tier also incorporates a lot of other Chapters that would be both unfair and unrealistic. The problem is that other BA Successors would be treated differently from the FT, yet they all form a single Ally, so my suggestion of "Ally of Convenience" is a compromise of sorts. Unfortunate, but necessary.

DarthMarko wrote:And don't forget to SW sisters are bloody heretics...

See, one more reason why they should be Desperate Allies. You're argueing in my favour!

DarthMarko wrote:to preach Lorgars words ???

Fatidicus'.

DarthMarko wrote:Again, read the book, it might clear some things for you...

I generally don't think too highly of novels - they tend to warp things too much in favour of the protagonist, feature a considerable power creep, and conflict with the Codex fluff I am much more accustomed to. Personal opinion.
That's not to say I don't ready any of the BL novels at all, but the way the Space Wolves have been treated has actually them made them less interesting to me (which is kinda sad given the basic idea), rather than more. I just prefer a more "down to earth" approach to things, so for example I would rather like to read a story about the Celestial Lions as that is a Chapter that has, at least, been portrayed as "vulnerable", actually suffering consequences for their actions. That's the sort of tragedy I am looking for in the stuff I read. And that's why I'm playing one in my DW game.

Lyn you are forgeting the crucial part of GW 40k reallty ...SM > the rest...So don't expect a purge of FT
soon...I'm sorry but that a harsh reality ( which you are still having a problem with he,he.... )...Did you like GE Leto's fish speakers, btw ?

Hey, I know your pov about the novels, but you really need to give them a chance... At least in this instance.....

 Lynata wrote:
[

DarthMarko wrote:to preach Lorgars words ???

Fatidicus'.

You say SAMSUNG, I say APPLE...

Psssht IG > SM . A man of steel can't do nothin' to them balls of steel! I must ask though... what does FT even mean? In terms of books... curse you gw with your lazy way of getting out of inconsistencies that make it so that everything and nothing is fluffy! If I might rudel yask.... could I ask what the exacts of this book are? I've been rather averse to 40k books as I feel SM books have a tendency of.... becoming bolter data slates that jurgen brings around for private time. I tend to prefer the human ones for that and only grab the ones people tend to love (Iron Warriors, UM, Night Lords, etc)

StarTrotter wrote:I must ask though... what does FT even mean?

Flesh Tearers, one of the Blood Angels' Successor Chapters that suffers from a rather aggravated stage of geneseed corruption. There was an ... incident during the Armageddon 3 global campaign.
You can read up on it on the archived website here and here. Their Index Astartes Chapter background is archived here. It's some pretty cool (and relatively little known) background. Enjoy!

StarTrotter wrote:[...] bolter data slates that jurgen brings around for private time

Hah - well paraphrased.
And I feel likewise. However, I found myself drawn to the graphic novels and comic books published by Black Library. For some reason, the stories there are much more varied and less one-sided. Might be worth a look ... they certainly surprised (and entertained) me.

 DarthMarko wrote:
You really need to read Blood of Asahaim, there is too much of "your version" Lynata...

Blood of Asaheim? The same book that has a Canoness losing her faith, only to have it restored by some Space Wolves? And Sisters who go around letting plague victims into their perimeter, in the midst of a Nurglite incursion? If that's the alternate version, then I think I vastly prefer the studio fluff version, thanks.

 Troike wrote:
The same book that has a Canoness losing her faith, only to have it restored by some Space Wolves?

Lol, what?

I can buy Sisters of Battle being morons, because they are collectively too stupid to recognize a refractor field ( ) but what is the context of this?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
because they are collectively too stupid to recognize a refractor field

They were primitives at the time, of course they didn't recognise it. Vandire himself even gloated about how he knew they wouldn't understand it after he pulled that trick.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
but what is the context of this?

I heard about it second hand from Furyou, but I think what basically happened is that the Canoness lost her faith after a long, grueling war against some Nurglite forces, only to have it restored when the heroic Space Wolves show up to singlehandedly save the day.

Well, they are the Emperor's angels...

That said, I'd think a Canoness would be of sufficient status to be a bit more realistic in their assessment of Space Marines, like the canoness in Helsreach, who gives the Black Templar no particular regard, and in fact finds the sociopathy with which they approach serving their god distasteful.

I think that all Sisters would be suspicious of Space Marines, not just Canonesses. Marines don't worship big E as a god and are abhumans, any Sister is going to be very uneasy with those traits.

Also, it just doesn't make sense for a Canoness to lose her faith due to a bit of difficult combat in the first place, only to have it restored by some near-heretical abhumans.

The Emperor himself sanctioned Space Marines. He created them. Officially, they are not abhumans.

For them to condemn Space Marines simply by their biology is to defy the Emperor's will itself. So I can't really see why all Sisters of Battle would be suspicious of them, or even most. It would be tantamount to telling the Emperor that he is wrong.

And that's why they're tolerated as much as they are, see. They have that direct connection to the Emperor. But, at the same time, they (or most of them) reject him as a god, instead seeing him as a man. To the Adepta Sororitas, being the extremely devoted zealots that they are, this is a big problem, and will be a point of tension. The codex fluff seems to reinforce this idea, I remember reading about how while the Ecclesiarchy (and by extension the Sisters) do disapprove of the beliefs of the Marines, they still provide Chaplains with Rosariuses. Sure they're willing to co-operate, but by no means are they comfortable with the Marines.

As for the abhumans thing specifically, that too would be a love hate thing, I'd imagine. A direct connection to the Emperor, but still a departure from the sacred human form. Certainly in the case of further mutated chapters like the Space Wolves or Black Dragons, there would be additional unease.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Troike wrote:
The same book that has a Canoness losing her faith, only to have it restored by some Space Wolves?

Fluff is fluff, you choose what you like....Wright did a good job...You can't ignore the writen material...

Not on the Sisters, he didn't. A Canoness (the most faithful Sister in an Order, by the way) wouldn't lose her faith because a war was tough, a Canoness would have fought in many wars by that point. An organisation who specialise in fighting heresy would not just let plague bearers into their perimeter freely., they would grab their flamers and let loose instead. Lastly, a group of elite soldiers, led by an individual that the GW site describes as possessing "tactical genius" wouldn't leave her perimeter unfortified. According to Furyou, the Sisters seem to forget to make any preparations prior to the Space Wolves arriving. He portrayed the Sisters badly, I'm afraid.

Also, "choose what you like" and "You can't ignore the written material" are rather contradictory statements, don't you think?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor himself sanctioned Space Marines. He created them. Officially, they are not abhumans.

For them to condemn Space Marines simply by their biology is to defy the Emperor's will itself. So I can't really see why all Sisters of Battle would be suspicious of them, or even most. It would be tantamount to telling the Emperor that he is wrong.

The Heresy maybe, I guess a lot of the Sisters schooling would be about those dark days possibly?

 Troike wrote:
Not on the Sisters, he didn't. A Canoness (the most faithful Sister in an Order, by the way) wouldn't lose her faith because a war was tough, a Canoness would have fought in many wars by that point. An organisation who specialise in fighting heresy would not just let plague bearers into their perimeter freely., they would grab their flamers and let loose instead. Lastly, a group of elite soldiers, led by an individual that the GW site describes as possessing "tactical genius" wouldn't leave her perimeter unfortified. According to Furyou, the Sisters seem to forget to make any preparations prior to the Space Wolves arriving. He portrayed the Sisters badly, I'm afraid.

Also, "choose what you like" and "You can't ignore the written material" are rather contradictory statements, don't you think?

Hm yeah, but you have read the book, you choose to ignore it...Book is still there, and I like it...

Fluff is officially in the cloud, do you agree ?

I think one of the problems here is some people choosing what they WANT to believe the sisters feel about the various space marine factions (that they distrust or dislike them), without any proof of what the sisters ACTUALLY feel about them. At this point we have a fluff source which contradicts that belief that the sisters (bood of asaheim), a fluff source that saids they fight alongside some of them (6th Ed Space Marines Black Templares), a game rule that says they're allies of convenience (NOT Desperate Allies) with one exception that's contradicted in a later source (with Black Templars) and that possibly no longer applies (debatable, but it's still... well, debatable), and several events which do NOT state the sisters' feelings on the subject or directly state how that affected their relationship with the marines in question, of which you can only SPECULATE the resulting effect on their relationship. The only event which does state the sisters' opinion is the Flesh Tearers, and EVERYONE distrusts those guys. Even if you argue "Everyone distrusts the wolves, too! The fluff says so!", that doesn't change the fact that the sisters are never specifically stated to have a greater distrust than everyone else (who's all allies of convenience at worse with the Wolves), so all one can do is SPECULATE as such.

If someone wants their sisters to be distrustful of Space Marines and waste time looking over their shoulders worried their marine allies will shoot them in the middle of battle against chaos marines even in the "best" of circumstances, then that's their prerogative. But for that someone to say such a relationship would make for a more "lore friendly" allies matrix when there are no fluff sources stating as such is just trying to make an allies matrix that's more friendly to HIS (or her) lore.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Troike wrote:
Not on the Sisters, he didn't. A Canoness (the most faithful Sister in an Order, by the way) wouldn't lose her faith because a war was tough, a Canoness would have fought in many wars by that point. An organisation who specialise in fighting heresy would not just let plague bearers into their perimeter freely., they would grab their flamers and let loose instead. Lastly, a group of elite soldiers, led by an individual that the GW site describes as possessing "tactical genius" wouldn't leave her perimeter unfortified. According to Furyou, the Sisters seem to forget to make any preparations prior to the Space Wolves arriving. He portrayed the Sisters badly, I'm afraid.

Also, "choose what you like" and "You can't ignore the written material" are rather contradictory statements, don't you think?

Hm yeah, but you have read the book, you choose to ignore it...Book is still there, and I like it...

Fluff is officially in the cloud, do you agree ?

I think a problem with this statement is that.... 40k's fluff has never been consistent. One book Space Marines are invincible tanks of doom the next guardsmen are wasting them with such eae you would reguard SM as a waste. Sometimes Eldar are deceptive mamen that are brilliant if a bit egotistical, the next, they are bumbling fools stupider than marines and humans in general. To be earnest, a cannonesse giving up hope is just absolutely terrible. If this is true, I have to concur, the Sisters of Battle had a terrible portrayal (which is sadly something SoB in particular suffer from). That being said, it does exist just as much as any bit of lore and can be regarded. I think the most important detail is considering the possibilities. How many pieces of evidence point towards SoB and Space Wolves not getting along and how many to working together. In these cases, I'd argue the best relationship is the one that should be made alliances.

Finally, I must say that FT might actually be exterminated. SM aren't as paramount as stated. Heck, there was a SoB army that whiped out a SM chapter for heresy. FT are particularly tainted and the only reason they haven't been whiped out is either because, A. Although they are heretical, they get the job done (SWx1000) or B. imperium is desperate for men

TiamatRoar wrote:
I think one of the problems here is some people choosing what they WANT to believe the sisters feel about the various space marine factions

Not really. I, for one, am going by the codex fluff of their characterisation. Extremely zealous? They won't like the lack of faith of the Marines. Regularly used to purge Marine Chapters? They will see Marines as falliable, which worsens the previous problem. We also have a case of them outright going to war with the Space Wolves, which will naturally be a big issue in that specific relationship.

Also, could we avoid making statements like that? I'm not just debating this way because I want it to be that way (though I do prefer that characterisation of the Sisters), I also take this view because I believe that the evidence supports it. Similiarly, I think that you too think that the evidence supports your view, and aren't just debating out of some petty dislike towards the opposing view.

TiamatRoar wrote:
At this point we have a fluff source which contradicts that belief that the sisters (bood of asaheim)

Which also has a Canoness of all people losing her faith, so I wouldn't consider it a particularly reliable source.

TiamatRoar wrote:
a fluff source that saids they fight alongside some of them (6th Ed Space Marines Black Templares)

But I don't think that anybody ever disputed that they can fight together well, just that Sisters have their issues with Marines, and more serious ones with the SW. As well as the Templars, we have a story about the SoB teaming up with the Salamanders too.

TiamatRoar wrote:
a game rule that says they're allies of convenience (NOT Desperate Allies)

This being the same rule that had Templars and SoB as desperate allies, with the Templars preferring xenos over Sisters?

TiamatRoar wrote:
and several events which do NOT state the sisters' feelings on the subject or directly state how that affected their relationship with the marines in question, of which you can only SPECULATE the resulting effect on their relationship.

But it isn't just speculation. We know that the Sisters are some of the most devoted, hardcore Emperor worshipers around, and we know that Marines do not subscribe the this belief. What's the logical conclusion, here? Tension between the two. We also know that the Sisters actively fought with the near-pagan Space Wolves after they attacked an Ecclesiarchy force. Again, what are the Sisters, dedicated zealots, going to think about this? It'll certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves, to put it lighlty.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Even if you argue "Everyone distrusts the wolves, too! The fluff says so!", that doesn't change the fact that the sisters are never specifically stated to have a greater distrust than everyone else (who's all allies of convenience at worse with the Wolves), so all one can do is SPECULATE as such.

Again, just because nothing is spelled out doesn't make logical conclusions any less logical. In her old fluff, we were also never told if Praxedes was killed on the world the Tyranids took. It's presented as ambigous. But, come on, we the readers know that she was almost certainly killed, barring some totally unforseen miracle.

 Troike wrote:
Not really. I, for one, am going by the codex fluff of their characterisation. Extremely zealous? They won't like the lack of faith of the Marines.

Speculation. You say "they WON'T like marines", but that's a far cry from an official source saying "They DON'T like marine". Again, there is no fluff source that directly says they dislike all marines. One can speculate that they do based on their zealousness, but one can also speculate that they don't. So this can't be used to argue for a more "lore friendly" allies matrix because it's up to the eye of the beholder.

Regularly used to purge Marine Chapters? They will see Marines as falliable, which worsens the previous problem.

Also speculation on how they might feel due to a certain situation. There is a big difference between someone claiming "they WILL see Marines as fallable" instead of an actual source that says "They see Marines as falliable".

We also have a case of them outright going to war with the Space Wolves, which will naturally be a big issue in that specific relationship.

Again, "Which WILL naturally be a big issue in that specific relationship". Speculation. You can't use this as conclusive proof.

Also, could we avoid making statements like that? I'm not just debating this way because I want it to be that way (though I do prefer that characterisation of the Sisters), I also take this view because I believe that the evidence supports it.

And I'm saying it doesn't count as evidence because it's speculation, not evidence. Again, the moment you have to say "they WILL do whatever" or "they WON'T like whatever", then that "evidence" is just your own personal speculation.

Similiarly, I think that you too think that the evidence supports your view, and aren't just debating out of some petty dislike towards the opposing view.

It's true that I too am guilty of speculative evidence that shouldn't count, although I mainly present it to show that where one speculates the sisters "won't" like Marines, another person can speculate that they "will". Therefore, both speculations should be thrown out, as should all speculations, because those are just speculations.

In looking at ACTUAL non-speculative evidence, we have the sisters being listed as "allies of convenience" with the wolves and... well, that's about it. We've never seen a fluff situation where they've allied with each other so there's no hard evidence either way. However, with the official source saying they are allies of convenience, burden of proof should fall on those people who want to CHANGE what GW currently says, because they're the ones trying to change the direct word from the studio. And speculation is not proof. You can't say the sisters being desperate allies with the wolves is more "Lore friendly" without an actual case of the sisters being desperate allies with the wolves. You can only say "Oh, I think based on my personal opinion of how the sisters would feel about various events, they'd be desperate allies with the wolves". That's different from Lore Friendly in the context of this thread (which assumedly is referring to GW's published lore). Again, that's just friendly to YOUR lore (IE, your ideas of how you personally think the sisters would feel about various events in absence of any source directly stating as such).

Which also has a Canoness of all people losing her faith, so I wouldn't consider it a particularly reliable source.

Again, your own personal opinion. One where other people obviously disagree with you.

But I don't think that anybody ever disputed that they can fight together well, just that Sisters have their issues with Marines, and more serious ones with the SW. As well as the Templars, we have a story about the SoB teaming up with the Salamanders too.

Right. However, in deciding on a "lore friendly" allies chart, after throwing out the speculations, we only have the "results" left as evidence. In these cases, we have actual hard-defined cases of Sisters working alongside Marines as allies of convenience at worst (and possibly Battle Brothers at best).

This being the same rule that had Templars and SoB as desperate allies, with the Templars preferring xenos over Sisters?

Again. This is arguably not the case anymore. Because we don't know where the mistake lies (is the mistake with Codex: Space Marines, which specifically stated they fight "side by side"? Or is the mistake with the Allies Matrix? Does it even apply anymore now that BT no longer have their own codex?), the sisters being desperate allies with the Black Templars marines can not be used as evidence for anything. It's now compromised evidence.

But it isn't just speculation. We know that the Sisters are some of the most devoted, hardcore Emperor worshipers around, and we know that Marines do not subscribe the this belief. What's the logical conclusion, here? Tension between the two.

We know that Tau are filthy xenos. We know that orks are CRAZY. We know that many Eldar see Dark Eldar as the path of damnation (something the fluff specifically states).

Yet marines HAVE allied as Battle Brothers with the Tau in an actual fluff case (and thus got slapped that way in the allies matrix. GW people when asked actually basically said "Um, Marines and Tau have fought alongside each other before" when asked about it). Yet the Imperial Guard can ally with Orks as allies of convenience (and have in actual fluff sources). Yet Eldar and Dark Eldar in some cases will ally as battle brothers too (Corsairs, for one thing). In this large galaxy, what seems "logical" at first glance might not end up being the case or applying.

Again, the allies matrix is clearly the BEST of situations ("best" meaning a situation that will best force two factions to ally with each other). I'll ignore the whole fact that what's logical to one person might not be logical to another (IE, speculation) and humour this. Maybe there is tension between the sisters and the marines. Maybe, logically speaking, they will hate marines 90% of the time. However, unless you can also logically say that they'd act as Desperate Allies to marines even in the "best" situation, this argument still fails.

Furthermore, your logic might be wrong. MANY MANY people think Eldar would "logically" never ally with Dark Eldar. But their logic was mistaken, as some Eldar and Dark Eldar really don't hate each other so much as follow different life styles. Many MANY people think Marines would never ally with filthy Tau xenos, but their logic is mistaken, as the two tactically can (and have) worked together when they needed to. One reason why I keep saying "You have to throw out the speculation" is that without conclusive PROOF of an ACTUAL case (where the sisters allied with wolves as Desperate Allies in a fluff battle), your logic may as well be wrong, too.

Yes, I don't have conclusive proof they are allies of convenience, either. However GW says so, so burden of proof should lie on the one that wants to change that.

We also know that the Sisters actively fought with the near-pagan Space Wolves after they attacked an Ecclesiarchy force. Again, what are the Sisters, dedicated zealots, going to think about this? It'll certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves, to put it lighlty.

Again, speculation. "It'll certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves" instead of "It DID certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves". "Dislike" does not mean "Desperate Allies", anyways. Since when did Marines LIKE Tau, for example? Or Imperial Guard like orks?

Again, just because nothing is spelled out doesn't make logical conclusions any less logical. In her old fluff, we were also never told if Praxedes was killed on the world the Tyranids took. It's presented as ambigous. But, come on, we the readers know that she was almost certainly killed, barring some totally unforseen miracle.

Again, people disagree with your logic. Hell, GW apparently disagrees with your logic based on their current allies matrix. Again, this is why you can't use "speculation". Maybe an allies matrix where the SoB are desperate allies with the wolves is friendly to YOUR lore. It certainly isn't friendly to mine or to several other posters here, nor is there conclusive proof that it is friendly to GW's lore because GW never said anything directly on the matter (with the glaring exception of the fact that the current allies matrix has them being allies of convenience).

Eeeeh.... I wouldn't say best relations necessarily. If memory serve me, BT still use their old alliance chart. Whatever we say, SoB and BT apparently hate each other that much even though they are one of the few chapters that view the Emperor as a god? Why is it that Space Marines are battle brothers yet a faction like BA (which fought alongside necrons at one point) won't? Why is it that Tyranids can't even have allies to make a mock genestealer cult? (heck desperate allies would work explaining that the cult knows they will get nommed and want to but they feel they must help them whittle down the foes). and the next one is a big one for me.

Why is it that IG are allies of convenience with Chaos Daemons and marines? IG wouldn't work like that. At best they would be desperate allies not trusting one another. Then why so? Well it's rather obvious. They are trying to make the Lost and the Damned (traitor guardsmen) possible. Yet why is it only allies of convenience then? Shouldn't they be battle brothers? Why are they not. The allies chart is in many cases a mess in terms of what it wants to be.

In terms of the cannonesse... it seems most people don't really like how she was portrayed. Problem with the book is it isn't really evidence nor is it not evidence. It could be 100% fact. It could be 90% fact with the SW changing some parts up. It could not be even slightly true and actually all just alpha legion xD