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DarthMarko wrote:But you think sisters would go well with BA and DA ?
In terms of general alliances: Yes, absolutely. There's not nearly as much bad blood between them.
In terms of the actual level of alliance, I mentioned earlier how they should still be Allies of Convenience, though.
BA due to the rumours and problems regarding their geneseed and Successor Chapters, DA because of their unreliability and secrecy.
You are kidding ? DA ? *Fallen, on the horizon, kill the sisters....!!!* BA ??? Muties with a same traits as FT ??? Okay, not so much but imagine DC working with sororitas..
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 03:11:03
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
TiamatRoar wrote:I still find your assessment that the sisters feel that way to be absolutely ludicrous and NOT lore friendly at all, whatsoever. Regardless of what you say, we have one book that contradicts this, bad as it is, and that's more than what you got. And that's the final word on that because now we're just repeating things.
Just because you keep ignoring the previously presented material on what the Ecclesiarchy thinks about Space Marines, and how little tolerant the Sisters are in general, does not make it any less valid.
At least we finally agree on moving in circles, though.
TiamatRoar wrote:Really, even Ciaphas Cain sisters weren't that nuts (not that you'd accept that as lore either. Because selective-choice on what's "proper lore" and what isn't is apparently the in-thing to do when deciding on a "lore friendly" chart for some people).
Selective choice on "proper lore" absolutely is the in-thing to do when this means preventing an army of elite religious crusader-nutjobs to be turned into a bunch of merrily drinking and flirting Sunday School girls whose gross incompetence in military matters is only overshadowed by how easy they lose faith and get corrupted.
Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick to the Codex fluff.
DarthMarko wrote:Again, you say Edison, I say Tesla...
I'm just repeating what GW tells me.
Even if I would adopt those weird Horus Heresy novels into my perception of the setting, nothing in there actually makes any connection between Lorgar and the Imperial Creed. You're merely jumping to conclusions because you like this idea.
Lorgar's teachings would be one of many, many, many different cults on the Emperor, just like Fatidicus' were. The difference is that I can point to a book that specifically says that Fatidicus' ideas resulted in the Ecclesiarchy as the one cult that managed to triumph over all other contenders.
DarthMarko wrote:You are kidding ? DA ? *Fallen, on the horizon, kill the sisters....!!!* BA ??? Muties with a same traits as FT ??? Okey, not so much but imagine DC working with sororitas..
Huh? I'm having trouble following you here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 03:15:38
Yeah Lynata, but then you can't argue with someone if your selective version isn't compatible with current fluff which some of us use.....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah Lynata, but then you can't argue with someone if your selective version isn't compatible with current fluff which some of us use.....
My fluff is as "current" as yours.
And, actually, I have already offered to simply agree to disagree way earlier on the very basis that we seem to be following different interpretations/sources.
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah Lynata, but then you can't argue with someone if your selective version isn't compatible with current fluff which some of us use.....
My fluff is as "current" as yours.
And, actually, I have already offered to simply agree to disagree way earlier on the very basis that we seem to be following different interpretations/sources.
Yeah, with a minor detail..Fully ignoring the current fluff which changes a thing or two....
I know you are just pissed on the SW for kicking the poor Bucharis out of equation...kidding, cheers
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 03:23:25
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah, with a minor detail..Fully ignoring the current fluff which changes a thing or two....
No, not with a minor detail.
Unlike most, I'm treating the fluff in the way its writers intended.
Your novels are not more right or more current than Codex fluff (which is constantly proven by GW's core team giving a rat's ass on what it says in some novel when they write their own fluff). Fortunately, one might add.
Hey, Lynata's lore of having the sisters view chaos and wolves as one and the same is as valid as daemons and grey knights allying together. GW said all fan lore is valid, after all.
No you're not. You're going by your own definition of what's valid lore. You even said so yourself one post up. "My fluff is as "current" as yours. " You're trying to force the wolves as desperate allies with the sisters as a more "lore friendly" allies matrix regardless of what other peoples' interpretation is. You can't prove that the writers intended the sisters to be desperate allies with the wolves at all. The fact that the wolves are allies of convenience with them in the matrix spits in the face of this, and all you have is the flimsy excuse that GW MIGHT be making a mistake (how convenient). Either all lore is valid and the idea of a "lore friendly" matrix should be thrown out the window, or you're forcing your idea of what's more "lore friendly" on it. You can't say "all lore is valid" and then say "a more lore-friendly matrix has the sisters be desperate allies with the wolves". The two are mutually exclusive statements.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 03:34:13
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah, with a minor detail..Fully ignoring the current fluff which changes a thing or two....
No, not with a minor detail.
Unlike most, I'm treating the fluff in the way its writers intended.
Your novels are not more right or more current than Codex fluff (which is constantly proven by GW's core team giving a rat's ass on what it says in some novel when they write their own fluff). Fortunately, one might add.
Can we at least argue about perspectives then ? Wait...we can't...damn..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StarTrotter wrote: Who knows? Maybe certain "Emperor's blessings" are daemons? and you know the changeling ain't exactly easy to catch~
In the "Flight of eisenstein" (book again), saint Keeler starts the holy mojo before Empy's ascension on the golden toilet...Hmmmmmm, very odd...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 03:41:27
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
TiamatRoar wrote:Hey, Lynata's lore of having the sisters view chaos and wolves as one and the same is as valid as daemons and grey knights allying together.
I said no such thing.
Spoiler:
DarthMarko wrote:And sisters need to worry about chaos, not the SM chapters who are constantly trolling them ...
Lynata wrote:Technically, to them both of these things may well be one and the same.
Please read my posts more carefully. Assuming, of course, you did not simply fail to see the connection between Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and an organisation whose list of tasks includes purging Astartes Chapters for doctrinal heresy.
TiamatRoar wrote:No you're not. You're going by your own definition of what's valid lore.
No, I'm not. If you'd read those quotes I linked, you might notice it is the definition of the writers.
TiamatRoar wrote:Either all lore is valid and the idea of a "lore friendly" matrix should be thrown out the window [...]
Which is, again, why I have said earlier that we should decide which sources we are operating on.
Lynata wrote: Which is, again, why I have said earlier that we should decide which sources we are operating on.
Well, GW's matrix is obviously operating off the novels too because that's where the Tau Marine battle-brothers thing comes from. So thus, the Blood of Asaheim is just as valid for it, hence allies of convenience for sisters and wolves. For all we know, maybe they considered that story when they decided on that relationship in the first place.
If you and others wish to make an allies matrix that doesn't take into account the novels, that's fine too. I however shall bow out of that because I'm simply more interested in the lore-reasoning of GW's allies matrix, which does appear to take the novels into account.
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As mentioned in Gav Thorpe's blog, GW does occasionally adopt things they like into their own description of the setting. Whether this truly led to the SM+Tau combination would be speculation, but of course any speculation regarding possible novel influences on SW alliance combinations is just as valid - and it is an interesting (if, to me, somewhat disturbing) thought that I had not considered.
Anyways, I guess that means we are simply looking for different things in the matrix. Truce?
Lynata wrote: As mentioned in Gav Thorpe's blog, GW does occasionally adopt things they like into their own description of the setting. Whether this truly led to the SM+Tau combination would be speculation, but of course any speculation regarding possible novel influences on SW alliance combinations is just as valid - and it is an interesting (if, to me, somewhat disturbing) thought that I had not considered.
Well, like I said, when someone asked at a panel, the GW guys responded that space marines and tau have teamed up in the past as their reasoning for it. Presumably they were referring to that novel, because I can't see what else they were referring to. It's not even really a stand-alone black library novel, I think. Pretty sure it's from Fire Warrior, which is the equivalent of the GW studio writers saying "We based this allies matrix relationship off of a book based off of a video game". (the Tau work with the Marines as "battle brothers" level in the book, but not in the game, to my knowledge)
...if true, that's both impressive in their research as well as horrific. ...though the Fire Warrior novel really wasn't bad.
Anyways, I guess that means we are simply looking for different things in the matrix. Truce?
Sure. I'm glad we reached this point actually. I'm always fascinated by the logic GW used behind their allies matrix so I got a few more realizations from this.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 04:39:27
6 pages and enough words to fill a novel and yet I havent seen people actually mention the fluff reason why GW might have intended SoB and BT to be desperate allies.
So here's my take:
In the old BT fluff, it was spelled out that unlike any other chapter, the Inquisition is well aware that the total number of BTs far exceeds 1000 marines, and are therefore in violation of the codex astartes. While IMO this should actually upset Rawbutt Girlyman, it seems that it upsets the Imperium's Inquisitiorial forces as well, and thus the Inquisition is wary of the BTs, especially the strength they could muster if their entire crusading fleets were gathered in one place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 10:41:43
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
Sir Arun wrote: I havent seen people actually mention the fluff reason why GW might have intended SoB and BT to be desperate allies.
Previously, some people explained it as "Catholics and Protestants" reasoning that they had strong dislike of each other as different sects of the same religion (keep in mind that this was before the new fluff that outright has BTs as Emperor worshipers, and that may have just been an incorrect assumption to begin with). But even that ignored the fact that the two had worked together well in the fluff before, and that the Templars bore more trust towards xenos than people who were similar to them in beliefs.
If I had to guess, I'd say that the person or persons who decided upon their allies relationship thought that they'd greatly at odds over (apparent) religious differences, or the BT's flaunting of rules on chapter size may have been a point of tension. I don't really agree with those explanations, doubly so in light of the latest fluff on the matter, but it could have been the reasoning behind their allies rating.
TiamatRoar wrote: Really, even Ciaphas Cain sisters weren't that nuts (not that you'd accept that as lore either. Because selective-choice on what's "proper lore" and what isn't is apparently the in-thing to do when deciding on a "lore friendly" chart for some people).
If you read the codex of fluff on how the SoB live and behave, then yes, the Cain Sisters are quite deviant from that. So no, a person is perfectly entitled to ignore a freelance writer who disregards a faction's characterisation. Some of the characterisation of the Sisters in the Cain books is quite incompatible with what we read about in the codex, isn't the best thing to do there to disregard some of what we see in the Cain books, and not the codexes?
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
TiamatRoar wrote: Really, even Ciaphas Cain sisters weren't that nuts (not that you'd accept that as lore either. Because selective-choice on what's "proper lore" and what isn't is apparently the in-thing to do when deciding on a "lore friendly" chart for some people).
If you read the codex of fluff on how the SoB live and behave, then yes, the Cain Sisters are quite deviant from that. So no, a person is perfectly entitled to ignore a freelance writer who disregards a faction's characterisation. Some of the characterisation of the Sisters in the Cain books is quite incompatible with what we read about in the codex, isn't the best thing to do there to disregard some of what we see in the Cain books, and not the codexes?
What I'm saying is that the Cain books sisters, despite how psychotic and crazy the sisters were in there (and the Cain books obviously being a satirical of how zealous they were), were still more compatible than your portrayal of the sisters as too stupid to focus on Chaos just because there are wolves around.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 13:55:41
I really can't see the Sisters being super-friendly with many Astartes chapters.
Raven Guard: have a mutation that makes them look like Michael Jackson. Clearly the work of Witches. They are heretics and must be purged.
Salamanders...OK maybe they would get along well with Sisters. They both do love setting things on fire, maybe there could be the spark of romance there. Except for the fact that they are also mutated to black skin and red eyes (just like evil beasties). They would need to be purged.
Iron Hands mutilate their Emperor given bodies. That can't be right. Burn them all.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
The sisters' relations with Astartes chapters is already spelled out in Witch Hunters 2E. I mean, REALLY spelled out. The quote is a few pages back. Basically they don't like them due to their iffy practices but relations can be "civil at best" (IE, allies of convenience ta the very worst in most cases) because they respect them as skilled and dutiful warriors and defenders of the Imperium.
As independent-minded as the wolves are, I'm sure this would apply to them too. After all, the wolves have been defending the Imperium for 10,000 years and have done such famous things as help take down Bucharis after the age of Apostacy. The wolves are heroic enough that Logan was elected leader of the Space Marines for the 13th Black Crusade and endorsed by Creed as well. Any sister that knows their Imperial History will know that, even though the wolves have bared their fangs at the Ecclesiarchy in the past, they can at least be relied on to defend the Imperium that they've been doing for 10,000 years and thus One Eye Open is something only a MORON of a sister would follow.
Contrary to what some people think, the sisters are not blind zealous fools that only care about the Emperor and nothing else. They actually DO care about Imperial citizens and actually DO sincerely hate "evil" things such as baby-eating and murdering civilians because those things are WRONG, not just because the Emperor says they're wrong. This shows up in both the sister's writing on the flesh tearers (she's actually very coherent and presents her case in a very thoughtful manner) and even Ciaphas Cain as well when Cain manages to appeal to their duty as protectors. Sisters Hospitalers actually have charity hospitals and are described by guardsmen as some of the nicest most caring people ever to them. When they went after the Sons of Malice to declare them renegade, the fact that the Sons of Malice were doing absolutely HORRIFIC things was emphasized ("horrific" as in brutalize and murder and eat people, not "horrific" as in "doesn't worship the Emperor the way the ecclesiarchy tells them to"). They're more than capable of realizing that the Astartes, despite not worshipping the Emperor, are still dutiful defenders of the Imperium and the "good guys", just as they are ("good guys" relative to the setting, of course).
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 14:41:04
TiamatRoar wrote: What I'm saying is that the Cain books sisters, despite how psychotic and crazy the sisters were in there (and the Cain books obviously being a satirical of how zealous they were), were still more compatible than your portrayal of the sisters as too stupid to focus on Chaos just because there are wolves around.
Ah, I was talking more about the "smokes and drinks" Sister in my previous reply. Anyway, in regards to Mitchell portraying them as "crazy", as you put it, I'd still call that inaccurate. Specifically, I'd cite the "charging into a 'Nid attack unsupported" part. Mitchell seems to have the misconception of thinking of the Sisters as regular crazed zealots who happen to have fancy equipment, rather than also acknowledging that they are elite soldiers too. He writes them zealous enough, but makes them seem too incompetent. Every Sister is a progenium graduate, see, and has been practicing military drill and tactics from an early age. What's more, the fluff notes than an SoBs daily life consists of combat practice as well as prayer. So I'd call "crazy" Sisters rather inaccurate in regards to the studio fluff.
So, getting back to your original point, I'd still view crazed Sisters as more incompatible with the fluff than Sisters who are extremely wary of what are essentially rowdy heretics that they have been to war with in the past.
Happyjew wrote: Salamanders...OK maybe they would get along well with Sisters. They both do love setting things on fire, maybe there could be the spark of romance there. Except for the fact that they are also mutated to black skin and red eyes (just like evil beasties). They would need to be purged.
They've worked together very well, actually. There's a story in the SoB codex where the two go on a burning spree together and are described as fighting "back to back".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 14:47:38
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
TiamatRoar wrote: What I'm saying is that the Cain books sisters, despite how psychotic and crazy the sisters were in there (and the Cain books obviously being a satirical of how zealous they were), were still more compatible than your portrayal of the sisters as too stupid to focus on Chaos just because there are wolves around.
Ah, I was talking more about the "smokes and drinks" Sister in my previous reply. Anyway, in regards to Mitchell portraying them as "crazy", as you put it, I'd still call that inaccurate. Specifically, I'd cite the "charging into a 'Nid attack unsupported" part. Mitchell seems to have the misconception of thinking of the Sisters as regular crazed zealots who happen to have fancy equipment, rather than also acknowledging that they are elite soldiers too. He writes them zealous enough, but makes them seem too incompetent. Every Sister is a progenium graduate, see, and has been practicing military drill and tactics from an early age. What's more, the fluff notes than an SoBs daily life consists of combat practice as well as prayer. So I'd call "crazy" Sisters rather inaccurate in regards to the studio fluff.
I agree that their craziness and incompetence there is inaccurate. That's why I said it was to the point of being a satire (which... well, the entire Cain series purposefully is, really). However, I think incompetently charging Nids is still more believable than incompetently wasting time and focus worrying about allied wolf forces when the sisters KNOW that the wolves, for all their fights with the sisters in the past, hate Chaos just as much as they do. The wolves have had 10,000 years history of fighting Chaos and enemies of the Imperium. A 10,000 year history that does NOT involve shooting their allies in the back in the middle of battle, even if they may shoot other Imperial factions in regards to other matters (typically instigated by those factions infringing on the wolves' territory first). Any sister with half a brain would know that the wolves can be relied on to fight enemies of the Imperium, even if they can't be relied on to be agreeable in other matters. Their storied skill and duty in destroying enemies of the Imperium would be respected just as much as the other astartes in this matter. Enough that a sister thinking with her head straight would know she doesn't have to worry about keeping one eye open when teamed up with wolves fighting various enemies of the Imperium.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 14:57:15
TiamatRoar wrote: What I'm saying is that the Cain books sisters, despite how psychotic and crazy the sisters were in there (and the Cain books obviously being a satirical of how zealous they were), were still more compatible than your portrayal of the sisters as too stupid to focus on Chaos just because there are wolves around.
Ah, I was talking more about the "smokes and drinks" Sister in my previous reply. Anyway, in regards to Mitchell portraying them as "crazy", as you put it, I'd still call that inaccurate. Specifically, I'd cite the "charging into a 'Nid attack unsupported" part. Mitchell seems to have the misconception of thinking of the Sisters as regular crazed zealots who happen to have fancy equipment, rather than also acknowledging that they are elite soldiers too. He writes them zealous enough, but makes them seem too incompetent. Every Sister is a progenium graduate, see, and has been practicing military drill and tactics from an early age. What's more, the fluff notes than an SoBs daily life consists of combat practice as well as prayer. So I'd call "crazy" Sisters rather inaccurate in regards to the studio fluff.
So, getting back to your original point, I'd still view crazed Sisters as more incompatible with the fluff than Sisters who are extremely wary of what are essentially rowdy heretics that they have been to war with in the past.
Happyjew wrote: Salamanders...OK maybe they would get along well with Sisters. They both do love setting things on fire, maybe there could be the spark of romance there. Except for the fact that they are also mutated to black skin and red eyes (just like evil beasties). They would need to be purged.
They've worked together very well, actually. There's a story in the SoB codex where the two go on a burning spree together and are described as fighting "back to back".
Ahh I disagree - being both a Zealot and a cool headed combat elite is a difficult balancing act - Look at the Templars and others in history - they were formidable fighters but often made serious errors in judgement because of their Faith / Arrogance - for instance charging 7000 soliders with 150 kinghts - sounds familiar? Astartes have the same issue - they are superbly combat trained but can get carried away with smiting the enemy rather than considering the bigger picture. Warriors and commanders throughout history have had this issue.
What Cain talks about (grudgingly) is how extremely effective they actually are when they are in combat, one sister later defeating a Broodlord in single combat, in the example mentioned above, they smash all the nearby synapse creatures and disorganise the swarm at the same time as Cain "rescues" them.....He never describes any as loosing their Faith - quite the opposite - Pretty much all other Imperial servants (except Cain really) are hugely inspired by their deeds and very presence. Faith is important to most of Mitchells characters - Cain is a believer as is Amberely and the other more cynical / worldly wise characters - they simply seem to believe - "The Emperor helps those who help themselves". The Sisters are seen as Chosen by Imperial Servants - perhaps even more than the Astartes - who are more mythical in form............
If they are simply they are cool efficient killers (which some of them will be - others not so much) the minor deviations of the Emperors chosen have no bearing on the matter as long as they are smiting heretics, Xenos and worse.
Space Wolves vs Sisters - in periods following that battle yes there is going to be tensions in interactions same as any Imperial organisation that has seen conflict with their fellows - but I think unless the Wolves are actually declared Heretics then violence should be able to be avoided.
My opinion (for what its worth) is that Sisters would be Battle Brothers with Guard and Black Templars and Allies of Convenience with all other elements of the Imperial Forces.............
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Mr Morden wrote: Ahh I disagree - being both a Zealot and a cool headed combat elite is a difficult balancing act -
And yet, this is bascially the Sisters! Just look at how their daily lives are desrcibed. The fluff says something along the lines of Sisters seeing combat training and prayer as equally necessary for their line of work. And one needn't be cool-headed to keep note of one's deeply ingrained military training. A Sister could be furious at the enemy whilst still sticking to her training. And this, in my opinion, is what makes them so successful. They have the mental fortitude and belief in their cause granted by their faith as well as the martial prowess granted by their training.
Mr Morden wrote: Look at the Templars and others in history - they were formidable fighters but often made serious errors in judgement because of their Faith / Arrogance - for instance charging 7000 soliders with 150 kinghts - sounds familiar? Astartes have the same issue - they are superbly combat trained but can get carried away with smiting the enemy rather than considering the bigger picture. Warriors and commanders throughout history have had this issue.
It doesn't sound familiar, actually. Where did this happen? Also, in fairness, that was an entire army of BTs moving together, right? The Cain book has some Sisters moving forward by themselves, leaving the rest of the Imperial forces and going out by themselves into a hostile, unkown area.
Mr Morden wrote: What Cain talks about (grudgingly) is how extremely effective they actually are when they are in combat, one sister later defeating a Broodlord in single combat, in the example mentioned above, they smash all the nearby synapse creatures and disorganise the swarm at the same time as Cain "rescues" them...
Don't most of the Sisters die in that encounter, though? It's still them making a rather serious blunder, overall.
When people complain about this, they're probably referring to how Varan seems to easily take control of an entire Order.
To his credit, Cain does acknowledge the extreme faith of the Sisters, and instantly dismisses reports of traitor SoBs as enemy misinformation.
Mr Morden wrote: If they are simply they are cool efficient killers
Not what I'm advocating, though. Wasn't my intention to portray them as such.
Mr Morden wrote: Space Wolves vs Sisters - in periods following that battle yes there is going to be tensions in interactions same as any Imperial organisation that has seen conflict with their fellows - but I think unless the Wolves are actually declared Heretics then violence should be able to be avoided
Avoided, sure, but tensions will still be very high. The Sisters are distrustful of Marines to begin with, and these Marines are evn more mutated than usualy, have killed clergymen and have fought with the Sisters.
However, I think incompetently charging Nids is still more believable than incompetently wasting time and focus worrying about allied wolf forces when the sisters KNOW that the wolves, for all their fights with the sisters in the past,
The Sisters, being the Sisters, would be worried about heretics, which they see the Wolves as. On top of that, these percieved heretics are rather rowdy, and under no obligation to obey the Sisters.
TiamatRoar wrote: even if they may shoot other Imperial factions in regards to other matters (typically instigated by those factions infringing on the wolves' territory first).
I don't think that those other factions view themselves as in the wrong, at all. What they have is many years og defying authority and getting violent about it at times. Just one more thing that Sisters would dislike about the Wolves.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
Sorry I should have been clearer in the Templars - I meant the historical Knights Templars rather than the 40K Black Templars. Basically they had a small force of 150 or so Knights and came across a large force of about 7000 of Saladin’s men and decided to charge - did not end well.......
A number of the Sisters die in the initial battle against the swarm but not as many as Cain expects and they achieve much more than he thought - in fact IIRC its the combination of the Sisters laying waste to synapse creatures and Cains headlong assault (ironically) with his vehicle and Jurgan that means they can all retreat safely - plus the Sister were the spearhead as they were leading fanatically devout PDf troops as well. They seem to have been making a successful tactical assault but an error on a strategic level - again not an unusual thing to happen to front line commanders
One interesting point is that Cain notes, like the Astartes, the Sisters tend not to take well to commands from other branches of the Imperiums fighting forces and also that they use their own Command Com net which he has trouble getting access to...........
Most sisters die later due to the infighting between the Inquisitions representatives over the artefact (again fairly normal plot) which first leads the whole swarm to them and then Amberely demolishes the whole plateau (and all the evidence) with orbital bombardment. However again, the swarm suffers badly against the Sisters.
IIRC Varen is able to take control over anyone he can see due to his Psyker abilities - I think that there are only five or six Sisters under direct control. It’s only Jurgen that protects Cain. The point of having them here was to show the sheer power of Varens power - as you say Cain immediately dismisses the merest idea that the Sisters have turned - if they had been mere Marines mind controlled - I doubt anyone would have been that surprised
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
It doesn't matter whether it'd necessarily be chaos or not. If the wolves were made Desperate Allies to the sisters, then anyone fielding an SoB + Wolves army against a Chaos army on the table top would be forced to use Desperate Allies rules, and that would be so ridiculously unfluffy that the Chaos player should be obligated to have his Chaos Lord laugh at how stupid those Imperial forces are. This is likely one of the reasons why the Allies matrix has to take the "best" circumstances into account
Again, it's also a matter of being able to replicate fluff battles, like the Tau Marines battle brothers scenario. Maybe you and 95% of everyone else hates Blood of Asaheim. But clearly at least one person here likes it. Why should he hypothetically not be allowed to have his wolves and his sisters fight together like they do in an ACTUAL Black Library publicatoin (bad as it is or not) just because it doesn't agree with your idea of the lore? If I'm allowed to have my marines and Tau fight together as battle brothers just because they did so in one book, that should apply to the sisters and wolves as well. The allies matrix needs to confirm to a standard, and this seems to be one of those standards the GW one is confirming to.
GW wants players to have options. They've made this VERY clear when they said all lore is valid. The nature of the allies matrix which allows for tons of alliances, even really REALLY vague ones like Marines and Tau (or hell, ones that never existed like Necrons and Daemons) shows this. Obviously they have their limits or else everyone could just ally with anyone else, but overall it's clear they are usually giving the benefit of the doubt to various races and including as many novels as they can, thus Blood of Asaheim is just as valid to the GW allies matrix as Fire Warrior and everything else is, which means "the best" allies relation possible. Making Wolves and Sisters allies of convenience doesn't hurt you people who think they should hate each other (just don't field them together or play with people who do). Given how house rules are barred from tourneys and the majority of the playerbase, it DOES hurt people who think they should be able to work with each other, however, by forcing them to play them in a way that doesn't reflect an actual GW-affiliated publication (whether you like it or think it stupid or not) at all.
If you want an allies matrix that ignores the novels then say so. Don't go shoving it around a discussion involving GW's ally matrix, though (I'm talking about this line of posts, not the entire thread), because GW's ally matrix CLEARLY is taking into account the novels. And make it ignore ALL novels instead of some lame double standard.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 16:47:07
"Divided we stand" is an axiom within the Imperium.
The Wolves have flat-out denied that they violated the Edict of Nikea because they have Rune Priests, not Psykers or Librarians, and Rune Priests practice the "ancient nature magic of Fenris". This either makes them, A, liars (in direct opposition to the very words of the Emperor) or, B, sorcerers. Guess which one is a heretic?
The Wolves have directly opposed the explicit orders of the Inquisition, killed Grey Knights acting within their legal right to arrest and detain Logan Grimnar, and carried out protracted naval engagements against the GK and the Inquisition and killed an Inquisitor.
They're heretics. Not Chaos-aligned heretics, but heretics. They have directly opposed the legal orders of those who represent the Emperor's Will, and have (stupidly) allowed the taint of Chaos *massive* opportunities to spread throughout the Imperium.
How many of those refugees and soldiers departing from Armageddon carried within them the seeds of corruption? We'll never know. The Inquisition and the Grey Knights were right in ordering their deaths. The risk to countless trillions of other human lives was too great to risk allowing them to live.
The Space Wolves disagreed, and that is what kicked off all their problems, simply because they are too damn stupid to understand how insidious Chaos can be.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: "Divided we stand" is an axiom within the Imperium.
The Wolves have flat-out denied that they violated the Edict of Nikea because they have Rune Priests, not Psykers or Librarians, and Rune Priests practice the "ancient nature magic of Fenris". This either makes them, A, liars (in direct opposition to the very words of the Emperor) or, B, sorcerers. Guess which one is a heretic?
The Wolves have directly opposed the explicit orders of the Inquisition, killed Grey Knights acting within their legal right to arrest and detain Logan Grimnar, and carried out protracted naval engagements against the GK and the Inquisition and killed an Inquisitor.
They're heretics. Not Chaos-aligned heretics, but heretics. They have directly opposed the legal orders of those who represent the Emperor's Will, and have (stupidly) allowed the taint of Chaos *massive* opportunities to spread throughout the Imperium.
How many of those refugees and soldiers departing from Armageddon carried within them the seeds of corruption? We'll never know. The Inquisition and the Grey Knights were right in ordering their deaths. The risk to countless trillions of other human lives was too great to risk allowing them to live.
The Space Wolves disagreed, and that is what kicked off all their problems, simply because they are too damn stupid to understand how insidious Chaos can be.
That's... nice. It doesn't change the fact that them being Desperate Allies to the sisters would make a player unable to recreate an actual BL publication (which is also "lore" in all definitions of the word, no matter how stupid some might see the book). Again, if you want an allies matrix that doesn't allow one to recreate BL publications, then say so. It can be "lore friendly" to studio only lore. However, your settings of them as Desperate Allies certainly isn't lore friendly to BL lore, which the current GW allies matrix generally is.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 17:06:20
I don't want an Allies Matrix to recreate BL publications.
I also don't want an Allies Matrix to recreate the gak-terrible Wolf & Sister webcomic. I don't want an Allies Matrix that has BA and Necrons bro-fisting (Desperate Allies is it, and fits that event perfectly).
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
That's... nice. It doesn't change the fact that them being Desperate Allies to the sisters would make a player unable to recreate an actual BL publication (which is also "lore" in all definitions of the word, no matter how stupid some might see the book).
I don´t get why. In "Blood of Asaheim" the Sisters are not "allied" with the Wolves.
The Wolves look down upon the Sisters, insult them and treat them like cockroaches. They do not fight side by side, at any point, because the Sisters (like the PDF) are unworthy of it. They whine, cry for help, lose their faith, tremble in fear, smile meekly when insulted and keep their head down. One of them gets so infatuated with the manly wolves that betrays her Order to pass them information. And at the end they die horribly without accomplishing nothing. They do not fight together.
It is not a good book in any sense. It is bolter porn, and rather sexist. But even in you like it, it does not depict the Wolves as allies of the Sisters. They fight alone.
I get your "best-case" theory, but then it should be Battle Brothers to anyone. If you go by the fluff, Sisters and Astartes are wary of each other, as explained in Codex Sisters of Battle (the last one, second edition), page 50. It is long but, to put it short, Space Marines are heretics (seriously, they use the word heretic) and mutants, and prone to become traitors. But they are related to God, so it is complicated. So AoC sounds good to me. And the open war between Wolves and Sisters should push this into DA territory. The Ecclesiarchy ordered the Sisters to exterminate the Wolves, there is blood between them... and the Wolves are traitors in their eyes.
To the OP:
Also... Sisters and Tau? Sisters and Necrons? Being a zealot is part of the Sisters´ ethos: they will rather die. Recently we got Reasonable Marines everywhere, but the Sisters are still crazy. I like them that way.
Last thing: why not Chaos + Imperial guard = Lost and the Damned? Fallen Angels or Alpha Legion can be represented using Battle Brothers between the two armies.
Just my two cents. The rest of the chart looks fine to me.
However I would like to see Space Marines as Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines. Really. I can field a 100% loyalist chapter or a 100% traitor chapter. There should be something in the middle, a chapter that has recently turned traitor and has not yet exchanged the Land Speeders for Defilers.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
Psienesis wrote: "Divided we stand" is an axiom within the Imperium.
The Wolves have flat-out denied that they violated the Edict of Nikea because they have Rune Priests, not Psykers or Librarians, and Rune Priests practice the "ancient nature magic of Fenris". This either makes them, A, liars (in direct opposition to the very words of the Emperor) or, B, sorcerers. Guess which one is a heretic?
The Wolves have directly opposed the explicit orders of the Inquisition, killed Grey Knights acting within their legal right to arrest and detain Logan Grimnar, and carried out protracted naval engagements against the GK and the Inquisition and killed an Inquisitor.
They're heretics. Not Chaos-aligned heretics, but heretics. They have directly opposed the legal orders of those who represent the Emperor's Will, and have (stupidly) allowed the taint of Chaos *massive* opportunities to spread throughout the Imperium.
How many of those refugees and soldiers departing from Armageddon carried within them the seeds of corruption? We'll never know. The Inquisition and the Grey Knights were right in ordering their deaths. The risk to countless trillions of other human lives was too great to risk allowing them to live.
The Space Wolves disagreed, and that is what kicked off all their problems, simply because they are too damn stupid to understand how insidious Chaos can be.
This is a one way you can interpret that situation.....Things are not that simple, but judging by your sig picture I see why you look at things that way...I could argue that represive measures fuel more chaos then some IG that saw Angron...
Now, I really like your comments but try to observe this situation from their pov....Also add a fully incopetent "I" lord in the equation.....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
and you know the changeling ain't exactly easy to catch~ 
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Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. 
