Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
OlGreye wrote: this thread is stupid long, so here's the deal, as I see it: yes, there are many troop units that can be made better than tactical marines.
The way in which you say this makes it seem as though external out of unit buffs and circumstances come into play in order to do so.
No. There are many Troops choices that flat out are better than Tactical Marines, either because of cheapness, because they have a reasonable number of SW slots, or because they have good firepower otherwise. Tacticals can't be made to give you any role that is particularly useful.
Now having said that, look at the armies that are being touted as having better troops: Eldar, with their paper thin armor,
Armour has become practically irrelevant in terms of need given the amount of AP2/3 finding its way into the game anyway. You're far less likely to get your point's worth with the defensive bonuses Marines get, better just to have more models, with enough firepower to kill before being killed.
and plethora of so-so elite choices (I'm looking at you, Banshees, wraithguard and Scorpions),
Completely irrelevant.
need really cheap, decently killy troop slots in order to be competitive.
The LVO winner a while back fielded 2 Guardian blobs of 20 with 2 Brightlance Platforms. And as if this even means anything, anyway? Style has no relevance when effectiveness is the key point.
Now lets look at Tau: They rely on being able to shoot holes in everything before they get killed in CQC by literally every other unit in the game.
And they usually do, and very rarely end up in melee - and that melee weakness is less so because of the supporting fire rule every Firewarrior gets. You also have more of them, they're more expendable, and they're not forming a contribution to your AT/Anti-MC, so they're more redundant when your list takes casualties.
Tactical Marines exist for one reason, not to blow holes in things, not to be super killy, not to make up for gak elite slots, but to be a body on an objective that won't turn and run when someone decides to maul them with a 3-500pt chunk of their army.
I sighed out loud.
They don't survive against volleys of fire in competitive lists in the current meta. Not by a long shot. They're easier to kill than blobs of Guardsmen if both are in cover. Bikes can do exactly the same attempted stunt by sitting on objectives too, yet usually don't, because that is a terrible idea. And they're superior in almost every way for roughly the same cost once transports are factored.
And the proposition that a Tactical Squad will survive a 300-500 point dedication of power is a complete load of toss. That's approximately 90~ fearless Conscripts, 30~ Firewarriors, a pair of Leman Russ Executioners... just to name some examples on the lower end of the scale... and all would wipe the squad in a single turn, or come exceedingly close to.
Those aren't even particularly great examples.
tacs hold objectives, at ~ 170pts a squad,
Which is a rip off
so that other units in the army (sternguard, termies, assault, HS etc.) can go do business.
Sternguard are only slightly above meh if you take the ideal loadout. Termies are naff. Assault? What do you mean, Assault Squads (pfft haha) or Terminator Assault squads? (you're one edition late) Maybe you meant assault elements... well buddy, Vanguards are basically unusable competitively and not even Honour Guard in their absurdly cheap form are good in a TAC list.
And "so they can go do business" is for granted, because elite units don't score. D'oh.
thats it. If you want stupidly good-at-everything troops that do all the work in your army in one squad or less, understand that youll be sacrificing in some other department in your codex.
Except we don't! We want a unit with one decent role or purpose that we can use - which would instantly be solved if they could take two specials or two heavy weapons. They don't have one good rule or purpose. They're completely invalidated by the hilariously superior Bikes even were you can make weak suggestions on roles.
And Tau and Eldar don't sacrifice elsewhere. The main, underlining feature of the Marines is their armour - their defensive qualities - except Tau get nigh invincible Riptides, and only marginally worse armour saves, while Eldar get nigh indestructible Wave Serpents, effectively making their Troops untouchable if they want it that way.
Tau have excellent elites with Riptides, very useful Pathfinders in Fast Attack, and Skyrays/Hammerheads which are pretty great in heavy support too- they're not lacking other FOC sections.
In summary, space marines are good troop choices, because they do what needs to be done in their codex, camp objectives, hide behind metal boxes, and not get chased off the board while the big boys go to work.
Before I even pick apart just how lacking in credit this statement is, shall I start by pointing out that here you're literally saying "lol doesn't matter the big boys will do it"... and now, on to the critical part. The big boys can't single handedly win you a game all the time, and you want excellency across your list.
Space Marines don't need a unit to camp objectives like Tacticals. That is generally a terrible way to play them, because you're paying absurd amounts of points in comparison to other Codexes for campers. If SM need a home objective camper, they take Scouts. If they need an an offensive objective taker, they take Bikes. Tacticals are just the expensive naffness in between that try to hard to be like Bikes but don't come close because their transport options are terrible.
Hide behind AV11. Great plan.
IG can give any infantry unit fearless + melee buffs for 25 points, or LD9 auto-pass leadership stubborn for the same cost. Eldar get battle focus to avoid getting caught, and have multiple units you have to deal with, plus blistering overwatch and counter attack units. Tau have Ethereals that single handedly solve leadership issues.
Spehss Mahreens get LD9 and a rule that means they can attempt in a futile gesture to come back with the 2-3 sods that didn't get obliterated. For the former only if you pay 10 more points on your already overpriced and redundant squad.
P.S. if you have a problem with the probability of killing things with bolters, take Imp Fist chapter tactics, and exploit bolter drill all day every day.
Or just harvest the collective thinking power your braincells provide and realize that Bikes are outrageously superior to Tacticals and make bolter drill redundant. Imperial Fists aren't even played by most people.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 16:58:22
To build off Mr. Omega, let's ask ourselves, why do Tacticals blow?
Simple, they aren't points efficient for today's 6E Warhammer 40k. It's a shooting edition that relies on lots of Ap2 weaponry or a ton of high volume S6/S7 shots.
Let's have a showcase showdown between two troop choices on who's "BETTER" at holding objectives? This will be rough math, so please feel free to correct:
Spoiler:
In this corner, we have Space Marines!
10x Tacs + Rhino: 175 Pts
In the other corner, we have IMPERIAL GUARD!
50x Conscirpts + Prist: 175 Pts
Looks like a "fair" battle, right folks? Now, are dakka of choice this round will be the infamous WAVE SERPENT! Decked to the nine with a TLSL, SC, and Serpent Shield!
Average total shots: 12.5
Average hits, to include Laser Lock: 11!
So the Wave Serpent Scores 11 hits on average that wound both a Space Marine and Conscripts on a 2+. Let's setup the scenario. We are camping our backfield objectives like a boss. We can safely assume that both units, the grand scheme of things, is probably grabbing some sort of 5+ cover save since the game dispenses them like candy (area terrain, firing through other units, etc. etc.). Let's start with the:
SPESS MEHRINES
Spoiler:
FIRST WAVE SERPENT
7x S6 Hits, 4x S7 hits (ignore cover, this only matters for the Rhino) and ignoring penetration results; 2 glances from S7, and 1 unsaved glance from the S6 volley... OOO, RHINO DOWN! Marines dump out. (*Note: This just gave a literal victory point to your opponent for first blood. One WS has enough fire power to level a Rhino just by looking at it*)
1st Volley: Marines at 140pts
SECOND WAVE SERPENT
11 hits, 9 wounds, 3 dead marines on a 3+ Save!
2nd Volley: 98 Pts.
THIRD SERPENT, 3 Dead; FOURTH SERPENT, 3 Dead; FIFTH SEREPNT, Last Man Down.
The Space Marine Squad has gone down in five volleys, statistically, from Wave Serpent.
That was pretty pathetic. Can our T3 friends do any better?!
IMPERIAL GUARD
Spoiler:
FIRST WAVE SERPENT
11 hits, 9 wounds, 6 dead on a 5+ Ar/Cv save
1st Volley: IG at 157
... 8 Serpents later, Just 2 Men are left! NINTH SERPENT: Last Man down!
TL;DR: Pound for pound, from RAW fire power, the Space Marines suck. Introduce anything that's Ap2/3 and ignores cover, and they lose faster. High volume S5 shots may be the tipping point... ?67.5 S5 shots to kill a 10 man Tac squad at BS4. 135 S5 shots to kill a 50 man Conscript Squad at BS4. Nope, still goes to bodies. So as an objective camper, they suck. This is without even gauging their offensive capability. 50 Lasguns, even at BS2, with First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire and Prescience will rip through 10 marines. 10 Marines with Prescience and Rapid Fire cannot kill the IG blob.
Mathematically, with equal weighting a scenario, the marines lose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 16:55:19
TheKbob wrote: To build off Mr. Omega, let's ask ourselves, why do Tacticals blow?
Simple, they aren't points efficient for today's 6E Warhammer 40k. It's a shooting edition that relies on lots of Ap2 weaponry or a ton of high volume S6/S7 shots.
Let's have a showcase showdown between two troop choices on who's "BETTER" at holding objectives? This will be rough math, so please feel free to correct:
Spoiler:
In this corner, we have Space Marines!
10x Tacs + Rhino: 175 Pts
In the other corner, we have IMPERIAL GUARD!
50x Conscirpts + Prist: 175 Pts
Looks like a "fair" battle, right folks? Now, are dakka of choice this round will be the infamous WAVE SERPENT! Decked to the nine with a TLSL, SC, and Serpent Shield!
Average total shots: 12.5
Average hits, to include Laser Lock: 11!
So the Wave Serpent Scores 11 hits on average that wound both a Space Marine and Conscripts on a 2+. Let's setup the scenario. We are camping our backfield objectives like a boss. We can safely assume that both units, the grand scheme of things, is probably grabbing some sort of 5+ cover save since the game dispenses them like candy (area terrain, firing through other units, etc. etc.). Let's start with the:
SPESS MEHRINES
Spoiler:
FIRST WAVE SERPENT
7x S6 Hits, 4x S7 hits (ignore cover, this only matters for the Rhino) and ignoring penetration results; 2 glances from S7, and 1 unsaved glance from the S6 volley... OOO, RHINO DOWN! Marines dump out. (*Note: This just gave a literal victory point to your opponent for first blood. One WS has enough fire power to level a Rhino just by looking at it*)
1st Volley: Marines at 140pts
SECOND WAVE SERPENT
11 hits, 9 wounds, 3 dead marines on a 3+ Save!
2nd Volley: 98 Pts.
THIRD SERPENT, 3 Dead; FOURTH SERPENT, 3 Dead; FIFTH SEREPNT, Last Man Down.
The Space Marine Squad has gone down in five volleys, statistically, from Wave Serpent.
That was pretty pathetic. Can our T3 friends do any better?!
IMPERIAL GUARD
Spoiler:
FIRST WAVE SERPENT
11 hits, 9 wounds, 6 dead on a 5+ Ar/Cv save
1st Volley: IG at 157
... 8 Serpents later, Just 2 Men are left! NINTH SERPENT: Last Man down!
TL;DR: Pound for pound, from RAW fire power, the Space Marines suck. Introduce anything that's Ap2/3 and ignores cover, and they lose faster. High volume S5 shots may be the tipping point... ?67.5 S5 shots to kill a 10 man Tac squad at BS4. 135 S5 shots to kill a 50 man Conscript Squad at BS4. Nope, still goes to bodies. So as an objective camper, they suck. This is without even gauging their offensive capability. 50 Lasguns, even at BS2, with First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire and Prescience will rip through 10 marines. 10 Marines with Prescience and Rapid Fire cannot kill the IG blob.
Mathematically, with equal weighting a scenario, the marines lose.
Could you compare these marines to a Necron warrior blob with a ghost ark and resorb/MSS lord?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
That's not an equivalent points cost, so that would require a lot more math.
And I don't have Excel on my home PC right now (clean wipe), so doing that sorta crap by hand sucks.
It's certainly way tougher. To what extent, I dunno. You'd have to factor in that warriors, even with a lord, can be swept where as the marines and the conscripts w/ priest cannot.
True, you could snipe out the priest with barrage fire, but "Look Out, Sir" and parking his ass on a board edge makes that a risk proposition for the barrager... scatter off the board and you lost all your shots.
TheKbob wrote: We are camping our backfield objectives like a boss. We can safely assume that both units, the grand scheme of things, is probably grabbing some sort of 5+ cover save since the game dispenses them like candy (area terrain, firing through other units, etc. etc.).
Have you ever actually deployed a fifty-one model unit?
Do you really think it's possible to have a line of guys one hundred and fifty three inches long without a significant number of them being open to focus fire? Put them in a 21" x 21" grid and they get a lot more vulnerable to blasts and still don't fit behind most cover. Cluster them any tighter and they get even more vulnerable to blasts.
In actual gameplay, I find that horde units rarely manage to get more than an inch between models and have to deploy in blocks rather than lines. This means they take hits from blasts at about three or four times the rate smaller units do. With Wyverns and Thunderfire cannons, that translates to something like eight times as many casualties as marines.
One hundred and fifty lasgun shots does sound intimidating, but you are rarely going to be in a position to actually shoot them all at a target. Your unit is more than 12" across, so when the front rank are in rapid fire range, the guys at the back can't shoot at all. Also, you can only do FRFSRF while your officer is alive and those command squads are not free. Likewise, in close combat you're not going to get more than a 3:1 effective advantage because the miniatures don't physically fit.
I've played guard hordes, I've played ork hordes, I've played kroot hordes. I'm a huge advocate of quantity over quality, but there are situations where you need concentration of force and extra bodies are just a liability.
TheKbob wrote: We are camping our backfield objectives like a boss. We can safely assume that both units, the grand scheme of things, is probably grabbing some sort of 5+ cover save since the game dispenses them like candy (area terrain, firing through other units, etc. etc.).
Have you ever actually deployed a fifty-one model unit?
Do you really think it's possible to have a line of guys one hundred and fifty three inches long without a significant number of them being open to focus fire? Put them in a 21" x 21" grid and they get a lot more vulnerable to blasts and still don't fit behind most cover. Cluster them any tighter and they get even more vulnerable to blasts.
In actual gameplay, I find that horde units rarely manage to get more than an inch between models and have to deploy in blocks rather than lines. This means they take hits from blasts at about three or four times the rate smaller units do. With Wyverns and Thunderfire cannons, that translates to something like eight times as many casualties as marines.
One hundred and fifty lasgun shots does sound intimidating, but you are rarely going to be in a position to actually shoot them all at a target. Your unit is more than 12" across, so when the front rank are in rapid fire range, the guys at the back can't shoot at all. Also, you can only do FRFSRF while your officer is alive and those command squads are not free. Likewise, in close combat you're not going to get more than a 3:1 effective advantage because the miniatures don't physically fit.
I've played guard hordes, I've played ork hordes, I've played kroot hordes. I'm a huge advocate of quantity over quality, but there are situations where you need concentration of force and extra bodies are just a liability.
The point of the post is not a tactical discussion. It's point to prove that 10 tac marines suck in comparison to equal troops from other armies. Any volume of shots necessary to level 50 conscripts will decimate 10 tacticals before hand. For every point you give (keep in mind Wyverns don't break 5+ armor and TFCs either break armor or cover, not both for conscripts) that puts the Horde at a detriment, there are plenty more that put the Space Marines at a worse one.
The prevalence of ignores cover and Ap3 or better weaponry dictates that wounds are better than armor saves. That's the point of the math; pure resilience calculation. 50 Conscripts + a Priest are more resilient than 10 Space Marines.
(Edit: Also, for turns spent firing at command squads, it increases their resilience. And it doesn't matter if I kill all the Space Marines in CQC. I'm Fearless. Locking them and eventually winning due to attrition is also good.)
I play Horde Sisters. I know what I'm talking about too. Nothing it more satisfying than playing against an opponent with no blast weaponry, balling up, and rolling through like an unstoppable mess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 18:19:08
There are lists that don't run templates. Unless I bring my knight pally, I usually have 0 templates other than frag grenades in my BA.
I've run giant blob units before. You can still spread them out as long as your whole army isn't the same, or after the rest of your army leaves your deployment zone. If they're shooting at an objective camping unit in the first two turns, they're either bad at the game, or rolled so unbelievably well that you're almost tabled already.
The math above just shows me what I already figured out from play experience. For troops, bodies over armor. Especially when they have a morale-fixer, like cultist zombies or synapse.
There's just no point in paying 3x the points for a tactical marine over most other troop choices in the game. If marine codices could substitute non-marine troop choices for their troops, you'd literally never see them except in "fun lists."
Against most of the things that would bother shooting at the tac squad or other hypothetical squad on a rear objective:
-the shots will be high enough str to wound on 2's, invalidating the marines higher toughness.
-or the shots will be good AP, invalidating the marine's armor.
- If not both.
-the only time the marines really get an advantage over a morale-immune blob on objective camping is when the shot ignores cover, is str 2-5, and is AP 4-5. And I'm not even sure that they would still have a point for point advantage. After all, 20 shots CANNOT kill 30 synapsed gants. It CAN kill 10 marines.
I can't think of a lot of guns that fit that description.
20000+ points