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 Kriswall wrote:
Non-useful argument. Deep Strike clearly does not happen during the Shooting Phase. If you believe it does, please quote rules and I'll be happy to debate.

I was just pointing out against your point that reading things in order is independent to applying them in order.


As for trying to end this seemingly endless Space Marine Apothecary or Bike Terminator argument:

We are all agreed that there is no RAW for "top-to-bottom"?
We are all agreed that there is no RAW for "check at the end"?

Can we agree that the Space Marine Codex was most probably intended as a "check at the end" Codex? Because Termis on bike were not intended, or apothecaries with TH+SS?

I will agree that Bikers are most likely not intended to take Terminator Armour. RaW currently allows it. Might need an errata.

I'm not sure l agree that Apothecaries are not intended to take upgrades. RaW currently allows it. Might need an errata.

I don't think "check at the end" is a thing. I don't understand how it would even work on units that are required to take multiple options in order to get to an end state... Bikers being the perfect example. If I check at the end for a Meltagun Biker, I need to know that he first applied an option that is no longer reflected in his wargear, namely the Bolt Pistol to Chainsword option. You would have to validate each step of the process to know if the outcome is legal.

I do think "check after each option" is a thing and that thing is more commonly known as "don't cheat".

 Kriswall wrote:
I will agree that Bikers are most likely not intended to take Terminator Armour. RaW currently allows it. Might need an errata.

I'm not sure l agree that Apothecaries are not intended to take upgrades. RaW currently allows it. Might need an errata.

For consistency they are both the same (to me anyway) and indeed, let's hope Space Marine are next after the Necron codex

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't think "check at the end" is a thing. I don't understand how it would even work on units that are required to take multiple options in order to get to an end state... Bikers being the perfect example. If I check at the end for a Meltagun Biker, I need to know that he first applied an option that is no longer reflected in his wargear, namely the Bolt Pistol to Chainsword option. You would have to validate each step of the process to know if the outcome is legal.

Ghaz would have to confirm, but i do believe that is indeed the technique. Definitely not RaW, but the most "honest" of methods to use with the SM Codex.
All of the options have a synergy that must work at the end. So the Meltagun biker needs to make sure he's done the bolt pistol > chainsword change and the Terminator Librarian check that he's not on a bike, etc. "End Checks"

The rules are quiet on the matter, supporting neither the 'top to bottom, one and done' nor the 'end of operations' method of determining if you have a valid and legal list. Neither have the backing of RAW.

I was not asking for RaW support, but rather on agreement as to "How the 'end of operations' method works".

I have tried to point out it is simply how i would RaI and HIWPI on the Space Marine Codex. (Because RaW leads to "dishonest" builds)

 BlackTalos wrote:
I was not asking for RaW support, but rather on agreement as to "How the 'end of operations' method works".

You look at the entire operation at the end to determine the unit's validity. If you have five actions to make a unit, you look at the interaction of all five actions. If you need to switch your bolt pistol for a chainsword in order to take another upgrade then you would see that. If you upgrade a Veteran to an Apothecary after you have taken a Veteran-only upgrade then you would see that too. You look at all of the interactions, not just one at a time.

SO, I think the conclusion after all of that is Apothecaries can totally have Veteran upgrades, maybe, unless they can't.

Discuss it with your opponent until GW decides to finish writing their rules.