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 Happyjew wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So then a Dark Reaper Exarch gets a 2 point discount if the whole squad upgrades to have Starswarm Missles?

Probably. I don't recall seeing those options in the Space Marine Command Squad entry.

Your argument, if you will, is that you can upgrade a Veteran to have a weapon, and then upgrade to an Apothecary. By that logic, I can upgrade all Dark Reapers to have Skyswarm Missiles, (for 8 ppm) and then upgrade one to an Exarch (who normally pays 10 pts for the same upgrade).

Additionally, an AM Company Command Squad, could upgrade all 4 Veterans to have a special weapon, and then give them a vox-caster, medi-pack, and a regimental standard.

I can only assume that the Eldar version of Walmart sells Skywarm Missiles at a slight discount if you purchase in bulk.

In all fairness though, giving the Exarch a 2 point discount if his entire squad takes the same option seems reasonable.

The AM issue I'd have to look at. I don't have the Unit Entry handy.

Could you perhaps take the explanation from the FW FAQ regarding Chapter Tactics, particularly for the Red Scorpions and their ability to upgrade a Sergeant (or Veteran Sgt) to an Apothicary?

Purity Above All - "... upgraded to carry a Narthecium for no additional points cost this does not otherwise alter their wargear, additional options or profile, and should always be appropriately represented on the model."

The wording for Company Command Squad:

One Veteran may take a vox-caster
One other Veteran may take a medi-pack
One other Veteran may take a regimental banner
Any remaining Veteran that has not been upgraded with one of the options above may replace his lasgun with one item from the Special Weapons list.

Since upgrades can be taken in any order, I can give all 4 special weapons, and then give them other upgrades.

Or, another example. Chaos Space Marines - Daemon Prince. Take 1-3 Mastery Levels (becoming a Psyker), and then upgrade to a Daemon of Khorne.

The AM issue has wording that makes the upgrades mutually exclusive. The SM issue does not. It's comparing apples and oranges.

 Kriswall wrote:
The AM issue has wording that makes the upgrades mutually exclusive. The SM issue does not. It's comparing apples and oranges.

How so?

SM: Veterans can take Special Weapons. Apothecaries cannot. A Veteran with a Special Weapon is not prohibited from upgrading to Apothecary.
AM: Veterans can take Special Weapons. A Veteran with a Vox-caster/Medi-pack/Regimental Banner cannot. A Veteran with a Special Weapon is not prohibited from taking a Vox-caster/Medi-pack/Regimental Banner.
CSM: Daemon Prince can be upgraded to a Psyker. A Daemon Prince of Khorne cannot. A DP with levels of Psyker are not prohibited from becoming a Daemon of Khorne.

In all three cases it is the exact same argument.

A can take X, B cannot. Taking X does not prohibit A becoming B.

The wording is different. The Apothecary thing doesn't mention other upgrades. The AM one does.

I don't have the CD book, so can't speak to that.

But it doesn't say they can't. It says nothing.

Saying nothing is not the same as saying it can't do something. In the case of the Apothecary all they say is the Veteran can take this, but then they dont say the Apothecary can't.

With the AM Vets, it says they can take X, but if they do they can't take Y. I would think logic dictates that they can't take Y and then X if they aren't allowed to have X with Y.

Kriswall, if an AM Veteran takes a Vox-caster, he cannot take a Special Weapon, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherStynier wrote:
But it doesn't say they can't. It says nothing.

Saying nothing is not the same as saying it can't do something. In the case of the Apothecary all they say is the Veteran can take this, but then they dont say the Apothecary can't.

With the AM Vets, it says they can take X, but if they do they can't take Y. I would think logic dictates that they can't take Y and then X if they aren't allowed to have X with Y.

Would you agree that an Apothecary cannot take a Special Weapon?

Does it say that a Veteran with a Special Weapon cannot be an Apothecary? Because if the Veteran with a Special Weapon can't be one or if its like this.

-One may be upgraded to a Company Champ
-One may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer
-One may be upgraded to an Apothicary

And then

Any model remaining may take a Special Weapon, than no, the Apothecary can't have one.

 BrotherStynier wrote:
But it doesn't say they can't.

From 'How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate':

"The rules don't say I can't!"

This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

 BrotherStynier wrote:
Could you perhaps take the explanation from the FW FAQ regarding Chapter Tactics, particularly for the Red Scorpions and their ability to upgrade a Sergeant (or Veteran Sgt) to an Apothicary?

Purity Above All - "... upgraded to carry a Narthecium for no additional points cost this does not otherwise alter their wargear, additional options or profile, and should always be appropriately represented on the model."

I would have to emphasis that there is a precedence regarding models upgraded to being an Apothecary however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 BrotherStynier wrote:
But it doesn't say they can't.

From 'How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate':

"The rules don't say I can't!"

This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

Missing the part where I go on to say that is says nothing are you?

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, if an AM Veteran takes a Vox-caster, he cannot take a Special Weapon, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherStynier wrote:
But it doesn't say they can't. It says nothing.

Saying nothing is not the same as saying it can't do something. In the case of the Apothecary all they say is the Veteran can take this, but then they dont say the Apothecary can't.

With the AM Vets, it says they can take X, but if they do they can't take Y. I would think logic dictates that they can't take Y and then X if they aren't allowed to have X with Y.

Would you agree that an Apothecary cannot take a Special Weapon?

For the AM issue...

One Veteran may carry a vox-caster.
One other Veteran may replace his lasgun with a heavy flamer.
One other Veteran may carry a medi-pack.
One other Veteran may carry a regimental standard.
Two other Veterans may form a Veteran Weapons Team who must take on item from the Heavy Weapons list.
Any remaining Veteran that has not been upgraded with pone of the options above may replace his lasgun with one item from the Special Weapons list.

The unit entry tells me that no Veteran who carrys a vox-caster may also take an item from the Special Weapons list. If I take both, I violate the restriction in the Special Weapons line.

For the SM issue...

One Veteran my be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium.
Any Veteran may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons and/or Special Weapons lists.

The unit entry has no such restrictions in the Apothecary line. An Apothecary can have a Special Weapon. If the unit entry read "One Veteran who has not selected items from the Special Weapons list can be upgraded to an Apthecary, taking a narthecium", then I would agree.

Apples and Oranges. The entries aren't worded the same.

 BrotherStynier wrote:
Does it say that a Veteran with a Special Weapon cannot be an Apothecary? Because if the Veteran with a Special Weapon can't be one or if its like this.

-One may be upgraded to a Company Champ
-One may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer
-One may be upgraded to an Apothicary

And then

Any model remaining may take a Special Weapon, than no, the Apothecary can't have one.

More or less. The list is as follows:



I don't know if this helps or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

 Happyjew wrote:

 BrotherStynier wrote:
Does it say that a Veteran with a Special Weapon cannot be an Apothecary? Because if the Veteran with a Special Weapon can't be one or if its like this.

-One may be upgraded to a Company Champ
-One may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer
-One may be upgraded to an Apothicary

And then

Any model remaining may take a Special Weapon, than no, the Apothecary can't have one.

More or less. The list is as follows:

Spoiler:

• One Veteran may take one of the following:
- Company Standard
- Standard of the Emperor Ascendant (one per army)
• One Veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion, replacing their chainsword with a power weapon and a combat shield
• One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium
• The entire squad may take Space Marine bikes
• Any Veteran may take any of the following:
- Melta bombs
- Storm shield
• Any Veteran may replace his chainsword and/or bolt pistol with a boltgun
• Any Veteran may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.
• The unit may select a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback as a Dedicated Transport.

The SM FAQ adds
Any Veteran may take items from the Special Weapons list.

I don't know if this helps or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

I absolutely agree that AFTER upgrading to an Apothecary, the Veteran wouldn't be allowed to take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon. That's why it's so important that he take the upgrade BEFORE he joins the Apothecarium.

And would you agree that after taking a Vox-caster, an AM Veteran cannot take a Special Weapon?

 Happyjew wrote:
And would you agree that after taking a Vox-caster, an AM Veteran cannot take a Special Weapon?

Of course, because the option to take a Special Weapon specifically requires the Veteran not be carrying a vox-caster.

Are we testing my reading comprehension? This is fun. Ask me another.

Happyjew wrote:

More or less. The list is as follows:

Spoiler:

• One Veteran may take one of the following:
- Company Standard
- Standard of the Emperor Ascendant (one per army)
• One Veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion, replacing their chainsword with a power weapon and a combat shield
• One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium
• The entire squad may take Space Marine bikes
• Any Veteran may take any of the following:
- Melta bombs
- Storm shield
• Any Veteran may replace his chainsword and/or bolt pistol with a boltgun
• Any Veteran may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.
• The unit may select a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback as a Dedicated Transport.

The SM FAQ adds
Any Veteran may take items from the Special Weapons list.

I don't know if this helps or not.

Kriswall wrote:

I absolutely agree that AFTER upgrading to an Apothecary, the Veteran wouldn't be allowed to take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon. That's why it's so important that he take the upgrade BEFORE he joins the Apothecarium.

After looking at everything I still feel the best option is to look at the FW assessment of upgrading a Veteran Sgt or Sgt (of the Red Scorpions) to being an Apothecary. With out that ruling, I would say an Apothecary can not take upgrades.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf

Reposting for sake of ease "...upgraded to carry a Narthecium for no additional points cost. This does not otherwise alter their wargear, additional options or profile, and should always be appropriately represented on the model."

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And would you agree that after taking a Vox-caster, an AM Veteran cannot take a Special Weapon?

Of course, because the option to take a Special Weapon specifically requires the Veteran not be carrying a vox-caster.

Are we testing my reading comprehension? This is fun. Ask me another.

So we are agreed that neither an Apothecary nor a Veteran with Vox can take a Special Weapon?

 BrotherStynier wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

More or less. The list is as follows:

Spoiler:

• One Veteran may take one of the following:
- Company Standard
- Standard of the Emperor Ascendant (one per army)
• One Veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion, replacing their chainsword with a power weapon and a combat shield
• One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium
• The entire squad may take Space Marine bikes
• Any Veteran may take any of the following:
- Melta bombs
- Storm shield
• Any Veteran may replace his chainsword and/or bolt pistol with a boltgun
• Any Veteran may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.
• The unit may select a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback as a Dedicated Transport.

The SM FAQ adds
Any Veteran may take items from the Special Weapons list.

I don't know if this helps or not.

Kriswall wrote:

I absolutely agree that AFTER upgrading to an Apothecary, the Veteran wouldn't be allowed to take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon. That's why it's so important that he take the upgrade BEFORE he joins the Apothecarium.

After looking at everything I still feel the best option is to look at the FW assessment of upgrading a Veteran Sgt or Sgt to being an Apothecary. With out that ruling, I would say an Apothecary can not take upgrades.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf

Reposting for sake of ease "...upgraded to carry a Narthecium for no additional points cost. This does not otherwise alter their wargear, additional options or profile, and should always be appropriately represented on the model."

From the start of that FAQ...

"Presented here is a brief set of conversion guidelines intended to represent the Chapter Tactics of the various Space Marine
Chapters featured in Forge World’s Imperial Armour books for use in games of 6th edition Warhammer 40,000. "

So, you're using an FAQ for a previous version of the game that deals with an entirely different unit to prove your point. I'm sorry, but that's not compelling at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And would you agree that after taking a Vox-caster, an AM Veteran cannot take a Special Weapon?

Of course, because the option to take a Special Weapon specifically requires the Veteran not be carrying a vox-caster.

Are we testing my reading comprehension? This is fun. Ask me another.

So we are agreed that neither an Apothecary nor a Veteran with Vox can take a Special Weapon?

I agree that a SM Veteran who has already selected the upgrade to be an Apothecary can't subsequently take a Special Weapon. I agree that an AM Veteran who is carrying a vox-caster cannot take a Special Weapon.

 Kriswall wrote:


So, you're using an FAQ for a previous version of the game that deals with an entirely different unit to prove your point. I'm sorry, but that's not compelling at all.

Im using an FAQ for a previous version of the game simply because a newer version has yet to be released.

Its like using a Codex for an Army from 6th Edition because it hasn't been updated for 7th. Further more, its unit comparison is little different to that of the AM Vet Squad to the Command Squad of the Space Marines.

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

Personally, I would say that since there is functionally no difference between giving him the weapon and then upgrading him, or upgrading him and then giving him the weapon, that the correct answer to this question would be 'Who cares?'

Once it comes time to put models on the table, it would make absolutely no difference which order you applied the options to him.

 BrotherStynier wrote:
Im using an FAQ for a previous version of the game simply because a newer version has yet to be released.

Its like using a Codex for an Army from 6th Edition because it hasn't been updated for 7th.

But it's not even for the same unit, man. It's circumstantial evidence at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

Personally, I would say that since there is functionally no difference between giving him the weapon and then upgrading him, or upgrading him and then giving him the weapon, that the correct answer to this question would be 'Who cares?'

Once it comes time to put models on the table, it would make absolutely no difference which order you applied the options to him.

I'm curious to see where he's going with this. It's like a bad court drama. "Objection!" "I'm going to allow it, but you'd better be heading somewhere!"

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

Personally, I would say that since there is functionally no difference between giving him the weapon and then upgrading him, or upgrading him and then giving him the weapon, that the correct answer to this question would be 'Who cares?'

Once it comes time to put models on the table, it would make absolutely no difference which order you applied the options to him.

What is the difference between giving a Veteran a SW and then upgrading to an Apothecary, and giving a Veteran a Special Weapon and then giving him a Vox-caster? Or a DP from taking Mastery LEvels and then becoming a Daemon of Khorne?

 Kriswall wrote:

 BrotherStynier wrote:
Im using an FAQ for a previous version of the game simply because a newer version has yet to be released.

Its like using a Codex for an Army from 6th Edition because it hasn't been updated for 7th.

But it's not even for the same unit, man. It's circumstantial evidence at best.

Nor is the AM Squad the same as the SM Command Squad, but that hasn't stopped it from being compared.

The point is an Apothecary has been mentioned at one point (recently) in rulings. If you don't want to use it, I'm not going to force you.

Kriswall, you claim I'm comparing Apples to Oranges.

In all three cases (Apothecary with SW, Veteran with SW and Vox, or Psychic DP of Khorne), you agree that once a certain upgrade is taken you cannot take the other, yet only for SM do you claim you can take them in the opposite order.

Your arguing that you can take X then Y and it is legal for SM (although you cannot take Y then X). But if I try to take X then Y for AM it is illegal since if I have Y I cannot take X.

 Happyjew wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

Personally, I would say that since there is functionally no difference between giving him the weapon and then upgrading him, or upgrading him and then giving him the weapon, that the correct answer to this question would be 'Who cares?'

Once it comes time to put models on the table, it would make absolutely no difference which order you applied the options to him.

What is the difference between giving a Veteran a SW and then upgrading to an Apothecary, and giving a Veteran a Special Weapon and then giving him a Vox-caster? Or a DP from taking Mastery LEvels and then becoming a Daemon of Khorne?

The difference is in the wording. Again, I don't own the Chaos Daemon book, so am unable to discuss it unless you wish to post all the applicable entries and rules.

The SM Veteran can take a Special Weapon. The SM Veteran can become an Apothecary. These are not mutually exclusive. I'm not being told that I can only upgrade to Apothecary those Veterans who haven't taken a Special Weapon. The AM unit entry tells me I can't give a Special Weapon to a Veteran carrying a vox-caster.

Now it's my turn for questions.

Can a SM Veteran take a Special Weapon?

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

Personally, I would say that since there is functionally no difference between giving him the weapon and then upgrading him, or upgrading him and then giving him the weapon, that the correct answer to this question would be 'Who cares?'

Once it comes time to put models on the table, it would make absolutely no difference which order you applied the options to him.

What is the difference between giving a Veteran a SW and then upgrading to an Apothecary, and giving a Veteran a Special Weapon and then giving him a Vox-caster? Or a DP from taking Mastery LEvels and then becoming a Daemon of Khorne?

The difference is in the wording. Again, I don't own the Chaos Daemon book, so am unable to discuss it unless you wish to post all the applicable entries and rules.

The SM Veteran can take a Special Weapon. The SM Veteran can become an Apothecary. These are not mutually exclusive. I'm not being told that I can only upgrade to Apothecary those Veterans who haven't taken a Special Weapon. The AM unit entry tells me I can't give a Special Weapon to a Veteran carrying a vox-caster.

Now it's my turn for questions.

Can a SM Veteran take a Special Weapon?

Yes.

And on a side note, though not relevant, the FW FAQ that has been referenced was to update the various Chapters for use with the current SM codex.

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, you claim I'm comparing Apples to Oranges.

In all three cases (Apothecary with SW, Veteran with SW and Vox, or Psychic DP of Khorne), you agree that once a certain upgrade is taken you cannot take the other, yet only for SM do you claim you can take them in the opposite order.

Your arguing that you can take X then Y and it is legal for SM (although you cannot take Y then X). But if I try to take X then Y for AM it is illegal since if I have Y I cannot take X.

I have not said anything about all three cases. I don't own the Daemons book and can't and won't speak to it.

I claim there is a difference... because there is a difference. They are worded differently. The authors chose different words when they wrote the entries. If they were written the same, I'd treat them the same.

You can take things in different orders, but only the AM codex creates a conflict as only the AM codex has a restriction in the unit entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

Personally, I would say that since there is functionally no difference between giving him the weapon and then upgrading him, or upgrading him and then giving him the weapon, that the correct answer to this question would be 'Who cares?'

Once it comes time to put models on the table, it would make absolutely no difference which order you applied the options to him.

What is the difference between giving a Veteran a SW and then upgrading to an Apothecary, and giving a Veteran a Special Weapon and then giving him a Vox-caster? Or a DP from taking Mastery LEvels and then becoming a Daemon of Khorne?

The difference is in the wording. Again, I don't own the Chaos Daemon book, so am unable to discuss it unless you wish to post all the applicable entries and rules.

The SM Veteran can take a Special Weapon. The SM Veteran can become an Apothecary. These are not mutually exclusive. I'm not being told that I can only upgrade to Apothecary those Veterans who haven't taken a Special Weapon. The AM unit entry tells me I can't give a Special Weapon to a Veteran carrying a vox-caster.

Now it's my turn for questions.

Can a SM Veteran take a Special Weapon?

Yes.

And on a side note, though not relevant, the FW FAQ that has been referenced was to update the various Chapters for use with the current SM codex.

Can a SM Veteran become an Apothecary?

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, you claim I'm comparing Apples to Oranges.

In all three cases (Apothecary with SW, Veteran with SW and Vox, or Psychic DP of Khorne), you agree that once a certain upgrade is taken you cannot take the other, yet only for SM do you claim you can take them in the opposite order.

Your arguing that you can take X then Y and it is legal for SM (although you cannot take Y then X). But if I try to take X then Y for AM it is illegal since if I have Y I cannot take X.

I have not said anything about all three cases. I don't own the Daemons book and can't and won't speak to it.

I claim there is a difference... because there is a difference. They are worded differently. The authors chose different words when they wrote the entries. If they were written the same, I'd treat them the same.

You can take things in different orders, but only the AM codex creates a conflict as only the AM codex has a restriction in the unit entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, would you agree an Apothecary cannot take a Melee/Ranged/Special Weapon (after upgrading to an Apothecary)?

Personally, I would say that since there is functionally no difference between giving him the weapon and then upgrading him, or upgrading him and then giving him the weapon, that the correct answer to this question would be 'Who cares?'

Once it comes time to put models on the table, it would make absolutely no difference which order you applied the options to him.

What is the difference between giving a Veteran a SW and then upgrading to an Apothecary, and giving a Veteran a Special Weapon and then giving him a Vox-caster? Or a DP from taking Mastery LEvels and then becoming a Daemon of Khorne?

The difference is in the wording. Again, I don't own the Chaos Daemon book, so am unable to discuss it unless you wish to post all the applicable entries and rules.

The SM Veteran can take a Special Weapon. The SM Veteran can become an Apothecary. These are not mutually exclusive. I'm not being told that I can only upgrade to Apothecary those Veterans who haven't taken a Special Weapon. The AM unit entry tells me I can't give a Special Weapon to a Veteran carrying a vox-caster.

Now it's my turn for questions.

Can a SM Veteran take a Special Weapon?

Yes.

And on a side note, though not relevant, the FW FAQ that has been referenced was to update the various Chapters for use with the current SM codex.

Can a SM Veteran become an Apothecary?

Again yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall, might I suggest moving this to PM? That way if on the off-chance this thread gets locked, we can continue the discussion.

 Happyjew wrote:

What is the difference between giving a Veteran a SW and then upgrading to an Apothecary, and giving a Veteran a Special Weapon and then giving him a Vox-caster? Or a DP from taking Mastery LEvels and then becoming a Daemon of Khorne?

The difference, as Kriswall said, is that they're worded differently.

Different units that have differently worded rules don't always work the exact same.