Florida... again... Mass shooting at a nightclub's teen night

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I have to agree with Peregrine. "Attempted manslaughter" is a very silly oxymoron. How can you intend to unintentionally commit a crime?

**Spetulhu**

nkelsch wrote:
The second the 'organization' covers up, lies, defends these bad cops, they instantly BECOME bad cops. They are all guilty the second they begin the cover up or blue wall.

But that's the thing with closed organisations like police, military and so on. They're concerned about their authority (for a good reason) but it also means guys at the scene can't easily stop whatever is going wrong since they're not supposed to publicly gainsay the leader. And the higher-ups are expected to defend their men.

**Kovnik Obama**

Peregrine wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
no. it was the intention to shoot someone who was not a reasonable threat.

Which is incompetence, not malice. Since "attempted manslaughter", as you suggested, is an inherently absurd concept* your choices are attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon. Attempted murder is obviously not correct, and assault with a deadly weapon includes criminal negligence with a gun. I'm not defending this guy's actions at all, but crimes do have meanings and charging him with a crime he's obviously not guilty of is just a good way to let him go free.

*Since manslaughter refers to killing someone without intent, while "attempted" would mean that you tried to kill them. Attempted manslaughter doesn't appear to exist as a crime outside of legal fictions involved in plea bargains.

I was under the impression you could be charged with attempted manslaughter. "Attempt" can be added to any article of crime as long as the crime was intentional. And contrary to what a lot seem to think, you can intentionally commit a manslaughter, you just can't premeditate it (voluntary manslaughter requires that you had no intent to kill prior to the event that resulted in the killing, not that, throughout the commission of the crime, the intent never popped up).

**AegisGrimm**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I have to agree with Peregrine. "Attempted manslaughter" is a very silly oxymoron. How can you intend to unintentionally commit a crime?

Usually some sort of negligence that leads to an accidental death, as far as I know.

**Kovnik Obama**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I have to agree with Peregrine. "Attempted manslaughter" is a very silly oxymoron. How can you intend to unintentionally commit a crime?

Some unknown bloke in the street tells you off. (no premeditation)

Having had a very bad day, you blow your fuse and jump the man. At some point in the altercation, you are heard screaming, "Im gonna kill you", but end up being separated by folks around before you enact your threat. (stated intention to commit a murder + failure in the act)

Boom : "attempted volontary manslaughter".

**Future War Cultist**

I hope that the cops who shot him go down for it. They have to go down for it. How can you allow them to get away with this in a free society?

At the risk of sounding crazy, I'm starting to think that American police really do deserve everything they get.

**Selym**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I have to agree with Peregrine. "Attempted manslaughter" is a very silly oxymoron. How can you intend to unintentionally commit a crime?

Some unknown bloke in the street tells you off. (no premeditation)

Having had a very bad day, you blow your fuse and jump the man. At some point in the altercation, you are heard screaming, "Im gonna kill you", but end up being separated by folks around before you enact your threat. (stated intention to commit a murder + failure in the act)

Boom : "attempted volontary manslaughter".

No, that's assault.

Verbal behaviour, at least in England, is only taken seriously when not in the heat of the moment, when you've had time to think about what you are saying.

**Kovnik Obama**

Selym wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I have to agree with Peregrine. "Attempted manslaughter" is a very silly oxymoron. How can you intend to unintentionally commit a crime?

Some unknown bloke in the street tells you off. (no premeditation)

Having had a very bad day, you blow your fuse and jump the man. At some point in the altercation, you are heard screaming, "Im gonna kill you", but end up being separated by folks around before you enact your threat. (stated intention to commit a murder + failure in the act)

Boom : "attempted volontary manslaughter".

No, that's assault.

Verbal behaviour, at least in England, is only taken seriously when not in the heat of the moment, when you've had time to think about what you are saying.

That'd be both. And anyways, any "Heat of Passion" moment suffice. I'm not aware that anything precludes both the reduction and the "attempted" addition. And I very much doubt that there is such a high requirement on verbal behaviour in England, it would basically make it impossible for someone to self-implicate.

**Selym**

In a fight, you rarely say what you mean. If, after the fight broke up, you were still saying it, that'd be taken more seriously.

**Mr. Burning**

Selym wrote:
In a fight, you rarely say what you mean. If, after the fight broke up, you were still saying it, that'd be taken more seriously.

Words said are use in the context of the situation. You use verbal threats in a physical confrontation and they will be used to build a charge up against you, whether you meant them or not.

**Frazzled**

Peregrine wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
no. it was the intention to shoot someone who was not a reasonable threat.

Which is incompetence, not malice. Since "attempted manslaughter", as you suggested, is an inherently absurd concept* your choices are attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon. Attempted murder is obviously not correct, and assault with a deadly weapon includes criminal negligence with a gun. I'm not defending this guy's actions at all, but crimes do have meanings and charging him with a crime he's obviously not guilty of is just a good way to let him go free.

*Since manslaughter refers to killing someone without intent, while "attempted" would mean that you tried to kill them. Attempted manslaughter doesn't appear to exist as a crime outside of legal fictions involved in plea bargains.

You seem to have forgotten about voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.

**Bromsy**

Future War Cultist wrote:
I hope that the cops who shot him go down for it. They have to go down for it. How can you allow them to get away with this in a free society?

At the risk of sounding crazy, I'm starting to think that American police really do deserve everything they get.

I think it's indeed a bit crazy to believe that people deserve to be gunned down in cold blood for sharing a profession with some other people who did something wrong while having done nothing wrong themselves.

**Vaktathi**

Bromsy wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
I hope that the cops who shot him go down for it. They have to go down for it. How can you allow them to get away with this in a free society?

At the risk of sounding crazy, I'm starting to think that American police really do deserve everything they get.

I think it's indeed a bit crazy to believe that people deserve to be gunned down in cold blood for sharing a profession with some other people who did something wrong while having done nothing wrong themselves.

the problem comes when that profession frequently presents itself as a "brotherhood" and united front with a frequent "us vs them" mentality, portraying themselves as a unified "thin blue line", often operating under organized collective representation (that frequently engages in the most tenuous of lame defenses and legislative lobbying for special perks).

That tends to get what otherwise would be wildly disparate people lumped together quite easily by others, particularly when it's also a representative of the State.

**angelofvengeance**

And while we're on the topic of Florida... another mass shooting at a club's "teen night" event. For feth's sake, haven't you lot had enough?

http://news.sky.com/story/mass-shooting-at-florida-clubs-teen-night-10511953

Two people have been killed and 16 others wounded in a mass shooting at a Florida nightclub, according to US media reports.

The shooting took place at Club Blu in Fort Myers in the early hours of Monday morning, said Lt. Jim Mulligan of the Lee County Sheriff's Office.

One person has been detained by police.The incident is thought to have taken place during a 'teen night' at the club, with some of the people at the event as young as 13.

One witness says that she heard around 30 gunshots from the scene and believes that these came from a number of weapons.

Syreeta Gary's daughter was at the club when the attack happened. Speaking on a Twitter video, she said: 'Well, I just thank God that my daughter is okay. She could have been shot. She was dodging bullets and dropping between cars.

'It is ridiculous that kids have to go through this and they cannot enjoy themselves because you have people with criminalistic minds who want to terrorize people."
At least 20 police officers are at the scene and roads in the area have been sealed off.

The shootings happened at 12.30am local time. Police said they were at two other locations connected to the incident.

What they described as "a person of interest" was detained at one of them.A police statement said: "The Fort Myers Police Department and Lee County Sheriff's Office are actively canvassing the area looking for other persons who may be involved in this incident.

"At this time the scene is still very active as investigators and crime scene personnel attempt to determine what occurred."

**Dreadclaw69**

angelofvengeance wrote:
And while we're on the topic of Florida... another mass shooting at a club's "teen night" event. For feth's sake, haven't you lot had enough?

Of being lectured, yes. Are you attempting to make this into another gun control thread?

**Selym**

I think that comment is aimed more generally.

But there have been a seemingly high amount of shootings and bombings on the media lately.

**Kilkrazy**

True.

It really has depressed me, these past few weeks, with multiple shootings and murders in the USA, France, now Germany, the USA again, and the coup in Turkey.

Obviously things tend to cluster. It would be a lot more unlikely if these dreadful events would space themselves out neatly to an average per month.

**Mr. Burning**

Could we not keep this thread for its intended purpose. I'm not sure that Florida is a great enough connection between a mass shooting and an issue with law enforcement.

The original topic is still ongoing and is going to get lost.

**Dreadclaw69**

Selym wrote:
I think that comment is aimed more generally.

"[Y]ou lot" is aiming something generally?

It would be nice to keep this thread to its original topic. Someone else can create another topic with the intention of poking the gun control bear, which I have no doubt will end up with people talking past each other until it gets locked (again).

**angelofvengeance**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Of being lectured, yes. Are you attempting to make this into another gun control thread?

Not lecturing anybody. Sure there will undoubtedly be mention of gun control issues. But my main question is, why isn't the USA doing more about this issue?

**djones520**

angelofvengeance wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Of being lectured, yes. Are you attempting to make this into another gun control thread?

Not lecturing anybody. Sure there will undoubtedly be mention of gun control issues. But my main question is, why isn't the USA doing more about this issue?

What issue?

What prompted this attack? Why did it happen? Who did it?

Can you explain any of this? Maybe then we can get down to doing more about the issue.

**SickSix**

angelofvengeance wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Of being lectured, yes. Are you attempting to make this into another gun control thread?

Not lecturing anybody. Sure there will undoubtedly be mention of gun control issues. But my main question is, why isn't the USA doing more about this issue?

What would you have us do?

**Relapse**

The crashing sound of another thread going off the rails.

**Selym**

Relapse wrote:
The crashing sound of another thread going off the rails.

The word train has no brakes!

**Ouze**

... why would you hijack a pre-existing thread for another event that has literally nothing to do with the original topic?

Why not create a new thread?

**reds8n**

If people really want to discuss the latest tragedy then a new thread is, in this instance, better.

**BaronIveagh**

reds8n wrote:
If people really want to discuss the latest tragedy then a new thread is, in this instance, better.

New Thread up for new Florida mass shooting.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/697524.page

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

angelofvengeance wrote:
And while we're on the topic of Florida... another mass shooting at a club's "teen night" event. For feth's sake, haven't you lot had enough?

http://news.sky.com/story/mass-shooting-at-florida-clubs-teen-night-10511953

Heard this on the radio at work...You know things are definitely FUBAR when you've become so jaded and cynical that your first reaction is "Thank feth only two people were killed".