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 feeder wrote:
Saw the movie this weekend with my wife and kids, we all greatly enjoyed it. Apart from a few things (how are two rowboats full of soldiers in hot pursuit of a freaking plane?) it's an excellent, highly enjoyable film. 9/10, would recommend to anyone.

The plane must have been intercepted by the destroyer. Rowboats were only launched once the plane was shot down.

Ah good point. I forgot about the destroyer.

 feeder wrote:
Ah good point. I forgot about the destroyer.

I think it sunk when it breached the protected area - it was definitely listing heavily.

You know, I think I know what I like so much about the new Wonder Woman movie after much rumination.

I think to me, she's functionally like Superman. She has a similar skillset, and to an extent, similar powers and even background. But the most recent iterations of Superman have all been so damn... mopey. He's always like a depressed boy scout. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, seems to be more hopeful. She knows she can't save everyone, but she accepts it and doesn't brood. To that effect, Superman having to kill Zod was a horrible choice for him, one he dreaded the possibility of and clearly was haunted by afterward. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, has a goddamn sword and if she needs to moke someone out, she's gonna moke them out and move on.

She's like a better Superman, I think.

To be clear, I'm talking about the Superman we've seen on film for the last what, decade or so? I do think Superman can be great, when done right.

 Ouze wrote:
You know, I think I know what I like so much about the new Wonder Woman movie after much rumination.

I think to me, she's functionally like Superman. She has a similar skillset, and to an extent, similar powers and even background. But the most recent iterations of Superman have all been so damn... mopey. He's always like a depressed boy scout. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, seems to be more hopeful. She knows she can't save everyone

I have to stop you right there. The movie made it clear that she didn't understand that she couldn't save everyone. Instead of having her ruminate on this, however, the screen writers forgot that she gave damn.

 Ouze wrote:
You know, I think I know what I like so much about the new Wonder Woman movie after much rumination.

I think to me, she's functionally like Superman. She has a similar skillset, and to an extent, similar powers and even background. But the most recent iterations of Superman have all been so damn... mopey. He's always like a depressed boy scout. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, seems to be more hopeful. She knows she can't save everyone, but she accepts it and doesn't brood. To that effect, Superman having to kill Zod was a horrible choice for him, one he dreaded the possibility of and clearly was haunted by afterward. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, has a goddamn sword and if she needs to moke someone out, she's gonna moke them out and move on.

She's like a better Superman, I think.

To be clear, I'm talking about the Superman we've seen on film for the last what, decade or so? I do think Superman can be great, when done right.

Wonder Woman is trained to be a warrior and to kill her enemies

 Ouze wrote:
You know, I think I know what I like so much about the new Wonder Woman movie after much rumination.

I think to me, she's functionally like Superman. She has a similar skillset, and to an extent, similar powers and even background. But the most recent iterations of Superman have all been so damn... mopey. He's always like a depressed boy scout. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, seems to be more hopeful. She knows she can't save everyone, but she accepts it and doesn't brood. To that effect, Superman having to kill Zod was a horrible choice for him, one he dreaded the possibility of and clearly was haunted by afterward. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, has a goddamn sword and if she needs to moke someone out, she's gonna moke them out and move on.

She's like a better Superman, I think.

To be clear, I'm talking about the Superman we've seen on film for the last what, decade or so? I do think Superman can be great, when done right.

I think you nailed it for me... as to why I liked WW.

Also, keep in mind that she's an actual goddess with divine abilities, whereas Supes is simply an interesting alien.

But... you're right... Henry Caville's Supes is way to mopey. I fault the writers on that one.

There's this quote from Snyder about Wonder Woman.

[quote "Zack Snyder" wrote]“She offers a unique opportunity to speak to what it is to be a strong, powerful, independent woman. It’s a glance that is necessary in the world, as well as the way that we represent heroes onscreen. Having that equal representation of male and female energy is really important to me. I love that there’s a purity to Wonder Woman. She doesn’t have the broken past, she’s not seeking revenge on people that wronged her. She can just be a hero.”

You go boy!

Wait....Supes is Jeebus with more punching and less fishes?

That's not the most original observation... But, some versions, basically, yeah.

 Compel wrote:
That's not the most original observation... But, some versions, basically, yeah.

Well, sorry, but I haven't read/watched Superman really before.

It is amazing how much easier it is to be the wholesome inspirational Superman when you have spent ten years in the Fortress of Solitude being trained and taught as opposed to, oh say, a young man trying to learn who he is and what he can do.

 Ahtman wrote:
It is amazing how much easier it is to be the wholesome inspirational Superman when you have spent ten years in the Fortress of Solitude being trained and taught as opposed to, oh say, a young man trying to learn who he is and what he can do.

Trained...not unlike how Diana, a princess of a mythical people on a magic island, was trained her whole life and treated as though she was special. Of course there's no doubt in her...she was born to greatness, taught to express her abilities, and prepared for her mission even if it wasn't fully revealed to her.

Clark on the other hand had a humble, normal upbringing other than these strange powers of unknown origin. Sometimes they were more troublesome than a boon. Mostly he just wanted to be normal and fit in. So when being Christ from Space is thrust upon him, he's unsure if it's for him and if he's up to the task.

It's almost like this has been thought out pretty well.

You can also see why Clark and Bruce are historically closer in the comics. Clark isn't human but he lives and views himself as one, albeit with superhuman abilities. Diana doesn't see herself as human, and her Diana Prince alter ego has never been as important to her identity. She is Princess Diana of Themyscera basically always. This difference actually made her and Clark an interesting couple in the New 52.

Yeah, I get that mopey superman kind of makes sense. It's just not as fun to watch.

I would say, in the Superman depictions I like most, the "being raised in a normalish humble lifestyle" is precisely the training Superman needed to be Superman.

All star Superman" wrote: "Doomed planet. Desperate scientists. Last hope. Kindly couple. Superman."

The idea that, as a morality tale, anyone can be Superman. Sure they can't fly out have eyebeam deathless but they can be Superman all the same. That's a big deal.

It's one of the big things I don't like about Man Of Steel, how not Jonathan Kent like the dad is. And also in BVS, how awful Martha's speech is. Weirdly, Ghost Jonathan in BVS was a whole lot better than MoS.

Superman is a hero, not because of his superpowers but because of a combination of how he was raised and who he innately is. And by the fictional characters in the world seeing Superman and by the audiences watching him they too can see what it's like and hopefully, just maybe, become better people too. Heroes, if you will.

Edit: and to bring this around full circle, someone could deride everything I just wrote there as silly and cheesy and would never work in a modern audience. The counterpoint is, this inspiration is precisely what Wonder Woman managed to invoke. And Superman should be there alongside her.

 Compel wrote:
someone could deride everything I just wrote there as silly and cheesy and would never work in a modern audience

The real counterpoint is that no one has said that and wasn't the point of contention anyway.

Also the All Star Superman character was once again a Superman at the zenith of his powers and abilities, not a young man just getting started.

I was talking generally (hence, "someone") based on various conversations I have had in the past on the subject.

You have my sincerest apologies if you have misinterpreted what I was saying as a personal attack upon you. Everything I have said it's based one hundred percent on my own personal preferred interpretations of the character. The depictions I have enjoyed most.

The all Star Superman quote was a frame for my later responses, particularly the idea of a "kindly couple" being central to Superman's heroism, in my preferred depictions.

You once again have my apologies if I was insufficiently clear on what I was saying, that I was discussing the superman concepts, I personally enjoy.

Well the wife wants to see it now so of course we will be going Saturday. I will give my two drink review after.

Are you drinking before or after the movie?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Are you drinking before or after the movie?

YES.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Are you drinking before or after the movie?

YES.

Ya'll... that's totes wisdom there.

 Compel wrote:
I would say, in the Superman depictions I like most, the "being raised in a normalish humble lifestyle" is precisely the training Superman needed to be Superman.

All star Superman" wrote: "Doomed planet. Desperate scientists. Last hope. Kindly couple. Superman."

The idea that, as a morality tale, anyone can be Superman. Sure they can't fly out have eyebeam deathless but they can be Superman all the same. That's a big deal.

It's one of the big things I don't like about Man Of Steel, how not Jonathan Kent like the dad is. And also in BVS, how awful Martha's speech is. Weirdly, Ghost Jonathan in BVS was a whole lot better than MoS.

Superman is a hero, not because of his superpowers but because of a combination of how he was raised and who he innately is. And by the fictional characters in the world seeing Superman and by the audiences watching him they too can see what it's like and hopefully, just maybe, become better people too. Heroes, if you will.

Edit: and to bring this around full circle, someone could deride everything I just wrote there as silly and cheesy and would never work in a modern audience. The counterpoint is, this inspiration is precisely what Wonder Woman managed to invoke. And Superman should be there alongside her.

I think you nailed the big problem with MoS as a movie. Superman as a concept is a hopeful, positive savior figure who embraces adversity and inspires. MoS portrayed him as a conflicted, unsure man with greatness thrust upon him. It was a "darker and edgier" take that didn't really work, since you already have Batman covering much of that and it just ends up a dreary slog.

WW shows that audiences do respond well to more positive yarns.

I figure some people in this thread might be interested in the new releases from Knight Models.

OK. The wife loved it. The next day her and the daughter were cackling away like two geeks at a convention.

My view:
1. It was decent (I think I have graduated out of the comic book movie genre for the most part): eminently better than BvS, and better than most of the Marvel films. I thought the pacing was different and the overall storyline was good.
2. I really liked the initial scenes

3. I liked the WW culture clash that was cute. Also her powers appear quite impressive. She appears as strong as Superman. Not certain how invulnerable she is but is definitely trained well.
I liked her unabashed stand back god work in progress approach.
4. I thought the initial part with everyone with bad greek accents was cute vs. her Israeli accent.
5. Also
6. I did not like the references to actual historical people. Killing off legendary characters essential to, well the rise of Hitler, put a damper on it for me. It wasn't needed and was a bit stupid.
7. Rum, pizza and popcorn was good. First time out after the surgery eating popcorn. Yea!

 Ouze wrote:
You know, I think I know what I like so much about the new Wonder Woman movie after much rumination.

I think to me, she's functionally like Superman. She has a similar skillset, and to an extent, similar powers and even background. But the most recent iterations of Superman have all been so damn... mopey. He's always like a depressed boy scout. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, seems to be more hopeful. She knows she can't save everyone, but she accepts it and doesn't brood. To that effect, Superman having to kill Zod was a horrible choice for him, one he dreaded the possibility of and clearly was haunted by afterward. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, has a goddamn sword and if she needs to moke someone out, she's gonna moke them out and move on.

She's like a better Superman, I think.

To be clear, I'm talking about the Superman we've seen on film for the last what, decade or so? I do think Superman can be great, when done right.

I think you make a really good point that gets to the core of it. Wonder Woman is an active hero, figuring out how to best use her powers. Superman is a reluctant hero. I'm not saying the reluctant superman approach is necessarily bad, but it is much harder to write, and so far that challenge has been beyond the writers WB has employed. Whereas Wonder Woman, being active and engaged, is much easier to write about.

The other part, which whembly touched on, is that Superman wasn't just reluctant, he was mopey. Outside of his powers, the take on Clark Kent was miserable as well. I mean, they somehow managed to make it look like sharing a bath with Amy Adams was an insufferable chore.

Yeah, Diana is Clark without the "Ho, Hum" face and bouts of depression.

Although maybe Clark's problem is that he suddenly realized that during fighting Zod, they probably caused the deaths of half as many people as the World Engine.

My wife and I loved the movie. The scene as she steps up into no-man's land is just plain awesome. So far, Wonder Woman is all about technique and Clark is just unbridled destruction.

Just going by this movie and Man of Steel, the difference seems to be that Superman is heroic because he performs heroic deeds. Wonder Woman, by comparison, inspire those around her to rise above themselves (as well as seriously prodding buttock when required).

Compare the scene where Superman rescues people from a burning building and the bystanders touch him like he's a god to the bit in Wonder Woman where she charges a German trench, and the Tommies charge after her. They're both superhuman gods, but one inspires dependency and the other empowerment.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Just going by this movie and Man of Steel, the difference seems to be that Superman is heroic because he performs heroic deeds. Wonder Woman, by comparison, inspire those around her to rise above themselves (as well as seriously prodding buttock when required).

Compare the scene where Superman rescues people from a burning building and the bystanders touch him like he's a god to the bit in Wonder Woman where she charges a German trench, and the Tommies charge after her. They're both superhuman gods, but one inspires dependency and the other empowerment.

In contrast I like her "I'm here to kill a guy" mindset. Stalking the guy in the middle of the party was fun to watch.

Yeah, I liked the awe on the faces of the guys in the trenches, as opposed to the creepy feelings of the crowds from BvS (though there it was kind of intended).

Part of that is possibly gender-based, though. Superman triggers feelings of raw power and impressive strength, where Wonder Woman gives me that "she's here to save and inspire us" feeling. At least for me, that is.