Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Plus lasguns are theoretically pretty gak weapons. Easy and cheap to make as they don't have moving parts and probably less precision needed to make them. A laser weapon that small has to kill instead of wound, wounding its terrible as it cauterizes the wound. Heat absorption in armour is also far easier than ballistics, hafnium carbide can resist 4000 degrees C. Even ceramic which is cheap as chips. People think lasers are good because they are futuristic, but lasers can we extremely weak or infinitely strong, it just depends on how much energy you are putting into the laser. Stronger they are the bigger the weapons are.

+1. If the basic soldiers didn't fire it necesseraly in the dozens, they would be actually nothing more than a flashlight. Unless they would carry las cannons like the ones mounted on leman russes, they SM would instantly lose some hitting power.

I never took a close look at Azrael's gun and... hum, yep it simply can't fire. They shoud have made the bottom full, not half size to look like a grip. That's silly!

I'm think the FAMAS ran NATO standard cartridges, I'd have to look for details though.

Yeah but the bolter is rapid fire as well, so in comparing the two that isn't a good selling point.

It very much is. As said, a laser's damage comes directly from the amount of energy put into each beam. Firing a dozen shots quickly vs 1 powerful shot, ie, hotshot lasguns. The Bolter and the Lasgun might have the same rate of fire, but the strength of the laser per shot is much lower when fired faster, or the strength is the same and it simply runs out of ammo much quicker. On the other hand, a bolter will always have the same hitting power and ammo count regardless of rate of fire.

No, boilters have lots of different rounds so so they don't have the same hitting power. Lasguns cannot change the strength of their laser, hotshots are a different weapon all together. Lasguns have one mode of strength.

To clarify - an indvidual bolter, regardless of exact caliber, will always have the same power, whether that is a 60-cal explosive, or 75cal Kraken Bolt. The same round fired from the same gun will have the same power, regardless or whether its fire at 1 RPM or 300RPM.

Hotshots are not a different weapon, they are an up-powered Lasgun with external power source. To break it down, a single lasgun power pack holds 50 standard shots, but could also theoretically hold 1-5 stronger shots. The energy consumption of the pack is the same, but the shot is different in strength and volume. You can fire many weaker shots or fewer stronger shots. This of course assumes a variably setting on a Lasgun which is not always going to be the case but could be possible on certain models.

A boltgun with a 30 round mag is always going to have 30 rounds and each shot is going to have the exact same power as the other 29.

Not true, a normal round will have more energy absorbed on impact than an armour piercing round. It has the same initial projectile force, but they do not have the same power on impact. Hotshots 'are' a different weapon. A lascannon is technically just an up-powered lasgun. Lasguns cannot theoretically shoot stronger shots, otherwise they would act that way. A hotshot is an 'advanced' lasgun they need coolant systems and reinforced barrels etc. They are a completely different weapon.

The normal vs AP round is true but you misunderstand me. Any given round from a given magazine will have the same power and stopping power as any other round within the same magazine fired by the same gun. Ignoring neglible differences in wind and gravity etc, 2 identical rounds fired from the same gun will deliver almost identical results.

A las-weapon is just upscaled versions of each other, yes. A hotshot has advanced systems to avoid the barrel disintegrating when fired - but there's nothing to say that a normal Lasgun can't fire at that same power, assuming you are okay with melting the gun or otherwise ruining it.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Plus lasguns are theoretically pretty gak weapons. Easy and cheap to make as they don't have moving parts and probably less precision needed to make them. A laser weapon that small has to kill instead of wound, wounding its terrible as it cauterizes the wound. Heat absorption in armour is also far easier than ballistics, hafnium carbide can resist 4000 degrees C. Even ceramic which is cheap as chips. People think lasers are good because they are futuristic, but lasers can we extremely weak or infinitely strong, it just depends on how much energy you are putting into the laser. Stronger they are the bigger the weapons are.

+1. If the basic soldiers didn't fire it necesseraly in the dozens, they would be actually nothing more than a flashlight. Unless they would carry las cannons like the ones mounted on leman russes, they SM would instantly lose some hitting power.

I never took a close look at Azrael's gun and... hum, yep it simply can't fire. They shoud have made the bottom full, not half size to look like a grip. That's silly!

I'm think the FAMAS ran NATO standard cartridges, I'd have to look for details though.

Yeah but the bolter is rapid fire as well, so in comparing the two that isn't a good selling point.

It very much is. As said, a laser's damage comes directly from the amount of energy put into each beam. Firing a dozen shots quickly vs 1 powerful shot, ie, hotshot lasguns. The Bolter and the Lasgun might have the same rate of fire, but the strength of the laser per shot is much lower when fired faster, or the strength is the same and it simply runs out of ammo much quicker. On the other hand, a bolter will always have the same hitting power and ammo count regardless of rate of fire.

No, boilters have lots of different rounds so so they don't have the same hitting power. Lasguns cannot change the strength of their laser, hotshots are a different weapon all together. Lasguns have one mode of strength.

To clarify - an indvidual bolter, regardless of exact caliber, will always have the same power, whether that is a 60-cal explosive, or 75cal Kraken Bolt. The same round fired from the same gun will have the same power, regardless or whether its fire at 1 RPM or 300RPM.

Hotshots are not a different weapon, they are an up-powered Lasgun with external power source. To break it down, a single lasgun power pack holds 50 standard shots, but could also theoretically hold 1-5 stronger shots. The energy consumption of the pack is the same, but the shot is different in strength and volume. You can fire many weaker shots or fewer stronger shots. This of course assumes a variably setting on a Lasgun which is not always going to be the case but could be possible on certain models.

A boltgun with a 30 round mag is always going to have 30 rounds and each shot is going to have the exact same power as the other 29.

Not true, a normal round will have more energy absorbed on impact than an armour piercing round. It has the same initial projectile force, but they do not have the same power on impact. Hotshots 'are' a different weapon. A lascannon is technically just an up-powered lasgun. Lasguns cannot theoretically shoot stronger shots, otherwise they would act that way. A hotshot is an 'advanced' lasgun they need coolant systems and reinforced barrels etc. They are a completely different weapon.

The normal vs AP round is true but you misunderstand me. Any given round from a given magazine will have the same power and stopping power as any other round within the same magazine fired by the same gun. Ignoring neglible differences in wind and gravity etc, 2 identical rounds fired from the same gun will deliver almost identical results.

A las-weapon is just upscaled versions of each other, yes. A hotshot has advanced systems to avoid the barrel disintegrating when fired - but there's nothing to say that a normal Lasgun can't fire at that same power, assuming you are okay with melting the gun or otherwise ruining it.

I didn't miss-understand at all. "To clarify - an indvidual bolter, regardless of exact caliber, will always have the same power, whether that is a 60-cal explosive, or 75cal Kraken Bolt."

" there's nothing to say that a normal Lasgun can't fire at that same power, assuming you are okay with melting the gun or otherwise ruining it." this is just a cop-out. They are not the same weapon, and seeing that lasguns can't shoot stronger shots proves it can't. If it could it would be reflected in the lore, which it isn't.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
this is just a cop-out. They are not the same weapon, and seeing that lasguns can't shoot stronger shots proves it can't. If it could it would be reflected in the lore, which it isn't.

Every lasgun has the same Strength on the tabletop, true. But there's quite a bit of fluff and Black Library fiction where some lasgun models are described as having different power or ROF selectors or guardsmen overloading a lasgun for more power when desperate. It doesn't make it a Hellgun, it's not Munitorium approved and the Comissar will be unhappy with you - but there's lore even if you can't use it in the TT game.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
this is just a cop-out. They are not the same weapon, and seeing that lasguns can't shoot stronger shots proves it can't. If it could it would be reflected in the lore, which it isn't.

Every lasgun has the same Strength on the tabletop, true. But there's quite a bit of fluff and Black Library fiction where some lasgun models are described as having different power or ROF selectors or guardsmen overloading a lasgun for more power when desperate. It doesn't make it a Hellgun, it's not Munitorium approved and the Comissar will be unhappy with you - but there's lore even if you can't use it in the TT game.

Can you quote those instances?

I’ve not heard of those adjustments on a lasgun anywhere but did read about a meltagun operator adjusting his weapon illegally to allow it to heat food and drinks. In stormsword I think. Bit silly.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
this is just a cop-out. They are not the same weapon, and seeing that lasguns can't shoot stronger shots proves it can't. If it could it would be reflected in the lore, which it isn't.

Every lasgun has the same Strength on the tabletop, true. But there's quite a bit of fluff and Black Library fiction where some lasgun models are described as having different power or ROF selectors or guardsmen overloading a lasgun for more power when desperate. It doesn't make it a Hellgun, it's not Munitorium approved and the Comissar will be unhappy with you - but there's lore even if you can't use it in the TT game.

Can you quote those instances?

Can’t find exact pages but read the Gaunts ghosts series. The sniper (Larkin I believe) mentions wasting entire power packs as a single hot-shot round, and that doing so drastically decreases the lifespan of his barrel. They also mention upping the power level when fighting aliens who are resistant to las weaponry, though they rely on solid shot projectiles to take them down more often.

The Mercian iron guard I believe are stated to have a fire mode with decreased firepower, more akin to giving a person a second degree burn that blowing off chunks of flesh. They use it for riot suppression. They also have an overcharge mode that drastically reduces shots but puts them near the level of a hot-shot.

Can’t recall the source but there’s a regiment that has an overcharge setting because the big beasts on their home world don’t give them many opprotunities to shoot it beforehand it kills them, so they have to make every shot count.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
this is just a cop-out. They are not the same weapon, and seeing that lasguns can't shoot stronger shots proves it can't. If it could it would be reflected in the lore, which it isn't.

Every lasgun has the same Strength on the tabletop, true. But there's quite a bit of fluff and Black Library fiction where some lasgun models are described as having different power or ROF selectors or guardsmen overloading a lasgun for more power when desperate. It doesn't make it a Hellgun, it's not Munitorium approved and the Comissar will be unhappy with you - but there's lore even if you can't use it in the TT game.

Can you quote those instances?

Can’t find exact pages but read the Gaunts ghosts series. The sniper (Larkin I believe) mentions wasting entire power packs as a single hot-shot round, and that doing so drastically decreases the lifespan of his barrel. They also mention upping the power level when fighting aliens who are resistant to las weaponry, though they rely on solid shot projectiles to take them down more often.

The Mercian iron guard I believe are stated to have a fire mode with decreased firepower, more akin to giving a person a second degree burn that blowing off chunks of flesh. They use it for riot suppression. They also have an overcharge mode that drastically reduces shots but puts them near the level of a hot-shot.

Can’t recall the source but there’s a regiment that has an overcharge setting because the big beasts on their home world don’t give them many opprotunities to shoot it beforehand it kills them, so they have to make every shot count.

What novel, I'll see if I can find it.

In most of the 40k RPG's (Inquisitor and the various FFG ones) the Triplex Pattern tends to have the variable power. The standard lasgun (m36 pattern) also has variable power in the Only War RPG. The necromunda pattern is often descriped as been capable of full auto.

In 2nd Edition a hotshot lasgun was identical to a bolter.

In Gaunts Ghosts the long las's (whatever the plural is) have stronger barrels and they carry multiple spares.

Tygre wrote:
In most of the 40k RPG's (Inquisitor and the various FFG ones) the Triplex Pattern tends to have the variable power. The standard lasgun (m36 pattern) also has variable power in the Only War RPG. The necromunda pattern is often descriped as been capable of full auto.

In 2nd Edition a hotshot lasgun was identical to a bolter.

In Gaunts Ghosts the long las's (whatever the plural is) have stronger barrels and they carry multiple spares.

Thought so.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
this is just a cop-out. They are not the same weapon, and seeing that lasguns can't shoot stronger shots proves it can't. If it could it would be reflected in the lore, which it isn't.

Every lasgun has the same Strength on the tabletop, true. But there's quite a bit of fluff and Black Library fiction where some lasgun models are described as having different power or ROF selectors or guardsmen overloading a lasgun for more power when desperate. It doesn't make it a Hellgun, it's not Munitorium approved and the Comissar will be unhappy with you - but there's lore even if you can't use it in the TT game.

Can you quote those instances?

Can’t find exact pages but read the Gaunts ghosts series. The sniper (Larkin I believe) mentions wasting entire power packs as a single hot-shot round, and that doing so drastically decreases the lifespan of his barrel. They also mention upping the power level when fighting aliens who are resistant to las weaponry, though they rely on solid shot projectiles to take them down more often.

The Mercian iron guard I believe are stated to have a fire mode with decreased firepower, more akin to giving a person a second degree burn that blowing off chunks of flesh. They use it for riot suppression. They also have an overcharge mode that drastically reduces shots but puts them near the level of a hot-shot.

Can’t recall the source but there’s a regiment that has an overcharge setting because the big beasts on their home world don’t give them many opprotunities to shoot it beforehand it kills them, so they have to make every shot count.

What novel, I'll see if I can find it.

Its the The Foudning, the first omnibus, but specifically I think its in Ghostmaker or Necropolis.

I can't remember which Gaunt's Ghosts novel it was, but I remember it was one of the earlier ones and they were going up against a Chaos Space Marine so they all turned their lascarbines up to max power.

Dan Abnett had an unusual take on lasguns though. His had recoil and also ricocheted similar to solid projectiles. They were also the first novels I remember lasguns being described as being capable of full-auto, whereas previously when I read about them they were semi-auto only. I will admit though that it's highly likely that there had been descriptions of full-auto lasguns that I just didn't notice. Games Workshop and Black Library have never been very consistent.

I think the image and blurb about the Mars Pattern lasgun that used to be all over the place (including the 3rd Ed rulebook IIRC) had a power selector depicted and a weird bit about it being semi-auto but experienced shooters being able to keep up a good rate of fire. I wasn't sure if that meant it had a short cool-down or something.

Only War gives the standard lasgun 3 power levels, the last one actually does 1 more point of damage than the hellgun, but it still can't match its penetration. There's also the Triplex that has different firing modes that are all suited at killing a a different foe.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
this is just a cop-out. They are not the same weapon, and seeing that lasguns can't shoot stronger shots proves it can't. If it could it would be reflected in the lore, which it isn't.

Every lasgun has the same Strength on the tabletop, true. But there's quite a bit of fluff and Black Library fiction where some lasgun models are described as having different power or ROF selectors or guardsmen overloading a lasgun for more power when desperate. It doesn't make it a Hellgun, it's not Munitorium approved and the Comissar will be unhappy with you - but there's lore even if you can't use it in the TT game.

Can you quote those instances?

Can’t find exact pages but read the Gaunts ghosts series. The sniper (Larkin I believe) mentions wasting entire power packs as a single hot-shot round, and that doing so drastically decreases the lifespan of his barrel. They also mention upping the power level when fighting aliens who are resistant to las weaponry, though they rely on solid shot projectiles to take them down more often.

The Mercian iron guard I believe are stated to have a fire mode with decreased firepower, more akin to giving a person a second degree burn that blowing off chunks of flesh. They use it for riot suppression. They also have an overcharge mode that drastically reduces shots but puts them near the level of a hot-shot.

Can’t recall the source but there’s a regiment that has an overcharge setting because the big beasts on their home world don’t give them many opprotunities to shoot it beforehand it kills them, so they have to make every shot count.

What novel, I'll see if I can find it.

Its the The Foudning, the first omnibus, but specifically I think its in Ghostmaker or Necropolis.

It’s in the second omnibus as well, the one about them being on a planet under WWII style siege by chaos, it’s noted several times because he runs low. The bit about the alien is in that one too, unsure which book but they fought with the panthine troopers

 MarcoSkoll wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
We already know how fast bolts are, the novels mention them to be supersonic/hypersonic.

Given the general consistency of the novels and the general firearms illiteracy of many BL authors, that's not very usable. (I reread Eisenhorn a while back because someone asked questions about his weapons, and the amount Abnett mangles the terminology is painful).

It's also a very vague description, and my ability to calculate these things would get much more ropey once into a truly hypersonic band, as there's relatively little study of ballistics at those velocities - even very fast APFSDS rounds fired by tanks (which have the advantage of very long barrels to accelerate their projectiles much faster than normal rifles) aren't even properly into the region.

Anyway, I'll admit that I picked relatively low values for my calculations, but if I pick higher values, it actually skews more in favour of a rapid burn.

If I pick 600 m/s as a muzzle velocity, and give the bolts 40 Ns of rocket propellant, then Bolt A is faster out to ~463 metres, and ahead out to 889 metres, and that's really getting a pretty long way for weapons where some of the design purpose must have been a weapon usable at close quarters.
Even if we calculate all the way out to 2 kilometres, Bolt B coasting rather than sprinting the distance still only makes it a fairly mild 13 m/s faster at 2000 metres.

Hypersonic weapons would be exceptionally lethal and useful in close range, what are you talking about? Once you reach velocities of that speed, firing rounds at point blank range is going to tear most targets apart from the impact force alone, nevermind the explosive qualities. And we also have direct bolt speeds from Death of Castellax that puts them well within the hypersonic range (Iron Warrior puts a bolt in a man from 2.5 kilometers and kills him before he reaches the ground after jumping off the bed of a truck).

I can't actually recall having seen any art that assumes those proportions. Generally, bolt rounds I've seen in the art are proportioned more like a mix between pistol and shotgun rounds.

We see it all the time in stormbolters, combi bolters, and also games such as deathwing.



Likewise (and how I got the measurements), when we apply Jes Goodwin's marine height chart to his same images of marines holding boltguns, such as this



We get roughly 19x165mm

And if we go by this



We get 19x126mm

So it's pretty obvious that by just looking at bolters themselves, GW's images of bolts are complete and must be lacking the kicker component to even fit in the gun. Likewise there wouldn't even be bolt casings big enough to justify the ejection port on boltguns unless the brass containing the kicker was fairly significant.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MarcoSkoll wrote:


** And in response to any cry of "But plasteel/ceramite/etc armour is stronger": At these velocities, it doesn't matter - when things go this fast, normal mechanical forces break down, and absolutely every material is like wet clay. Case in point: Aluminium wouldn't normally act like this under normal mechanical interaction, but it does versus anything at this kind of speed. As does copper, steel, tungsten, titanium, iridium, ceramic, concrete, wood, wet sand, whatever.

Your assumptions are completely wrong here. 40k materials in some cases literally break physics over their knee as there is no way to even comprehend the attributes of things like adamantium due to them being wholly incompatible with our universe. Adamantium is a naturally occurring element that can be mined from rocks. That alone means the periodic table of the 40k universe is completely different from ours and assuming their metals have similar qualities to ours is absurd. Thus we're left with the conundrum that either Adamatnium has some obscene atomic number that should render it unstable and incapable of surviving naturally like Nobellium or Californium while yet being a metal and not having an ungodly density that would render it unusable as an armoring material.

Same goes with melee weapons- 40k metals can be honed to monomolecular edges and yet do not instantly blunt. That's not something you can do in reality, as any monomolecular edge will be instantly lost upon making contact with practically any solid surface. Yet chainswords and powered chainswords can literally rip and cut through armor (despite the blades being so wide that cutting is literally impossible). And that's not addressing more absurd things such as using statements on the strength of wraithbone/plasteel which results in a hilariously absurd conclusion. (Wraithbone is stated to be 1,000 times stronger than steel, and in another article 8mm wraithbone is mentioned to be equal to ~30mm of plasteel.)

And that's not addressing more absurd things such as using statements on the strength of wraithbone/plasteel which results in a hilariously absurd conclusion. (Wraithbone is stated to be 1,000 times stronger than steel, and in another article 8mm wraithbone is mentioned to be equal to ~30mm of plasteel.)

which is only contridictory if you assume Plasteel literally means plastic as hard as steel, not simply a term that has come about to describe a partiuclar type of super hard synathetic material, one that may be considerably stronger then steel.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Your assumptions are completely wrong here. 40k materials in some cases literally break physics over their knee as there is no way to even comprehend the attributes of things like adamantium due to them being wholly incompatible with our universe. Adamantium is a naturally occurring element that can be mined from rocks. That alone means the periodic table of the 40k universe is completely different from ours and assuming their metals have similar qualities to ours is absurd. Thus we're left with the conundrum that either Adamatnium has some obscene atomic number that should render it unstable and incapable of surviving naturally like Nobellium or Californium while yet being a metal and not having an ungodly density that would render it unusable as an armoring material.

Adamantium is strongly hinted to be Titanium. Titanium ore can theoretically be mined on asteroids and planets, and would be light enough to make an effective armor without breaking chemistry as we know it or invalidating the periodic table. "But adamantium is stronger than titanium", true... But, that doesn't rule out a forging/treating method, or an alloy that we just have not discovered yet which makes the resultant material much stronger than modern day Titanium alloy.

w1zard wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Your assumptions are completely wrong here. 40k materials in some cases literally break physics over their knee as there is no way to even comprehend the attributes of things like adamantium due to them being wholly incompatible with our universe. Adamantium is a naturally occurring element that can be mined from rocks. That alone means the periodic table of the 40k universe is completely different from ours and assuming their metals have similar qualities to ours is absurd. Thus we're left with the conundrum that either Adamatnium has some obscene atomic number that should render it unstable and incapable of surviving naturally like Nobellium or Californium while yet being a metal and not having an ungodly density that would render it unusable as an armoring material.

Adamantium is strongly hinted to be Titanium. Titanium ore can theoretically be mined on asteroids and planets, and would be light enough to make an effective armor without breaking chemistry as we know it or invalidating the periodic table. "But adamantium is stronger than titanium", true... But, that doesn't rule out a forging/treating method, or an alloy that we just have not discovered yet which makes the resultant material much stronger than modern day Titanium alloy.

No it isn't. Adamantium is hinted no-where to be titanium, nevermind that titanium, especially in the case of armor, is weaker than steel. Post that information now, because I want a citation on something as outrageous as adamantium, a mined metal so durable it can survive the detonation of the plasma generators of ships, is a titanium alloy.

Andykp wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'd like to see more underslung combi weapons in general, the top special bottom bolter ones always seemed silly to me.

Yeah when they are special weapon on top makes it look like a plasma gun with a auxiallary bolter added. It seems like lazy model making to me. I’d never noticed how daft azraels gun is. Can’t unsee that now!

It's less daft-looking on the miniature because that part is hidden between his torso and elbow. Still, even in that drawing, it looks like there's a path from the magazine to behind the muzzle, even if it is rather convoluted and probably prone to jamming.

Andykp wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'd like to see more underslung combi weapons in general, the top special bottom bolter ones always seemed silly to me.

Yeah when they are special weapon on top makes it look like a plasma gun with a auxiallary bolter added. It seems like lazy model making to me.

Underslungs made more sense pre-8th Edition when the special WAS an actual auxiliary weapon with a single shot, and I liked how Combi-plasmas reminded me of underslung grenade launchers on the M4. But Combi Melta looks fine on the top for me personally. I also think that in the 8th Edition where combi weapons are not "auxiliary" but full blown weapon fusions that carry reloads and can fire all the time, essentially 2 guns in 1 casing, I think special on top is fine.

 Wyzilla wrote:
No it isn't. Adamantium is hinted no-where to be titanium, nevermind that titanium, especially in the case of armor, is weaker than steel. Post that information now, because I want a citation on something as outrageous as adamantium, a mined metal so durable it can survive the detonation of the plasma generators of ships, is a titanium alloy.

Firstly, most titanium alloys are stronger than commonly used steel alloys. https://www.quora.com/Is-titanium-stronger-than-steel-and-what-is-it-about-titanium-that-makes-it-so-difficult-to-manufacture

Secondly, I don't have a source on adamantium being titanium because there is none. It was just something I always assumed reading the novels because it is the only possible material to be as strong as we assume it is, and be as light as the books claim. A couple authors give subtle nods to the idea that adamantium is titanium without outright stating it. For reference, we know the atomic numbers of every material up until ridiculously dense elements that have problems existing because they are so dense... adamantium has to be one of them. Unless you're making the argument that 40k somehow operates in an alternate reality where basic elements like oxygen don't exist.

We know that adamantium is not an alloy, it is an element because it appears naturally. So, it has to be on the periodic table. Therefore, it is an element we already know, just renamed. Titanium is the only one that makes sense.

It is not beyond belief that humans 40k years in the future have found a Titanium alloy or a forging/treating technique for a specific titanium alloy that makes it many times stronger than titanium alloys today.

w1zard wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No it isn't. Adamantium is hinted no-where to be titanium, nevermind that titanium, especially in the case of armor, is weaker than steel. Post that information now, because I want a citation on something as outrageous as adamantium, a mined metal so durable it can survive the detonation of the plasma generators of ships, is a titanium alloy.

Firstly, most titanium alloys are stronger than commonly used steel alloys. https://www.quora.com/Is-titanium-stronger-than-steel-and-what-is-it-about-titanium-that-makes-it-so-difficult-to-manufacture

Secondly, I don't have a source on adamantium being titanium because there is none. It was just something I always assumed reading the novels because it is the only possible material to be as strong as we assume it is, and be as light as the books claim. A couple authors give subtle nods to the idea that adamantium is titanium without outright stating it. For reference, we know the atomic numbers of every material up until ridiculously dense elements that have problems existing because they are so dense... adamantium has to be one of them. Unless you're making the argument that 40k somehow operates in an alternate reality where basic elements like oxygen don't exist.

We know that adamantium is not an alloy, it is an element because it appears naturally. So, it has to be on the periodic table. Therefore, it is an element we already know, just renamed. Titanium is the only one that makes sense.

It is not beyond belief that humans 40k years in the future have found a Titanium alloy or a forging/treating technique for a specific titanium alloy that makes it many times stronger than titanium alloys today.

I’m not sire the periodic table was in their thoughts when they made up adamantium. They needed and super tough super duarable space metal to make their space armour out of for their space warriors. Nothing to do with where it comes or it’s atomic number.

And I think one on them liked Adam ant.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Andykp wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'd like to see more underslung combi weapons in general, the top special bottom bolter ones always seemed silly to me.

Yeah when they are special weapon on top makes it look like a plasma gun with a auxiallary bolter added. It seems like lazy model making to me. I’d never noticed how daft azraels gun is. Can’t unsee that now!

It's less daft-looking on the miniature because that part is hidden between his torso and elbow. Still, even in that drawing, it looks like there's a path from the magazine to behind the muzzle, even if it is rather convoluted and probably prone to jamming.

It could have been if the rounds had been smaller, but according to their size, I doubt they actually could make their way to be fired if any fire mechanism has been installed within the gun (which is necesseraly the case). If so then I agree that it must be very, very, prone to jamming...

That design is silly whatsoever!

As far as adamantium being titanium in disguise, I don't know the physics, but from GW it is possible. Actually there is the instance of prometeium that does exist, but that is nowhere near to oil, in reality it is something totally different. The could very well rename or misuse an existing element, but in all due likelyhood we can assume that they did find a way to forge hard nuts such as titanium, after all, 40k is none first and moremost for how silly it is. The main topic (the bolter) is a prime example.

Andykp wrote:
I’m not sire the periodic table was in their thoughts when they made up adamantium. They needed and super tough super duarable space metal to make their space armour out of for their space warriors. Nothing to do with where it comes or it’s atomic number.

And I think one on them liked Adam ant.

Making up things on the periodic table is impossible, there's no way to have fractions of a proton in the nucleus of the atom, and we have accounted for all other elements.

w1zard wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I’m not sire the periodic table was in their thoughts when they made up adamantium. They needed and super tough super duarable space metal to make their space armour out of for their space warriors. Nothing to do with where it comes or it’s atomic number.

And I think one on them liked Adam ant.

Making up things on the periodic table is impossible, there's no way to have fractions of a proton in the nucleus of the atom, and we have accounted for all other elements.

We have accounted for all other elements thus far - at one point there was many fewer elements on the table. Its entirely possible for a super dense stable non-radioactive metal, simply not theorised because it obeys an as of yet unknown law of physics. Remember, at one point the elements also contained Water, Fire and Air.

After all, in 40k we also have races that grow a bone like material organically with psychic powers that is stronger but lighter than steel, and living metal able to contain aeons-old godlike energy beings. Dont forget that this is a universe set so far beyond every other sci-fi universe. The realms of Star Trek and HALO and Destiny are long long dead and dust by the time the Old Night hits in the 40k universe. Look how far science and technology has come in the last 500 years... then multiply that advancement by 800 again. Its impossible to even imagine how advanced the Imperium might be compared to us, and they are on the bottom of a steep decline. Their understanding of technology during the Dark Age of Technology must make 21st century science look like monkeys eating fleas off each other. A Dark Age techpriest would look at a 21st gun maker arguing about the ballistics of a bolter as an Eldar might view a human trying to master the controls to a Wave Serpent

I highly disagree with titanium being adamantium for a number of reasons. Firstly, I have never heard of titanium being able to survive nuclear explosions and plasma reactors or anything of the sort. Its stronger and light but has its limits. At one point, a pure adamantium power armour suit (The Armour Indomitus) was able to provide a model with a 2+ armour save and 6+ invulnerable save, meaning it was as durable as having the best armour in the galaxy and a small force field to boot. And it could push itself to being 2++, meaning it was superior to having the best armour in the galaxy and a LARGE force field.

Secondly, weight - all depictions of adamantium give hint towards its weight. The Armour Indomitus above was descibed as very heavy. Terminator Armour is slowed down by it. A Land Raider is supremely heavy and requires a lot of it. Blast doors and Titan engines are made from it. Titanium on the other hand is known for being incredibly light for its strength compared to steel as well as being unreactive.

Third, adamantium is simply a bygone name for Unobtainium, which in itself is a catch-all term for "Fictionally supermetal far beyond anything we know today." The other prominent example of Adamantium in fiction is Marvel's Wolverine and others, and given that 40k was made by 2 nerds in the 80s and full of references, I'd bet the mortgage that they picked that one during to Marvel. Source inspiration aside, this means that adamantium is just a term to use instead of "Fictional Super Metal better than everything ever discovered." Therefore it could not be titanium or an alloy of it as its original intent. Any references or hints in novels is just because some writers, like some Dakka posters, prefer to ground themselves in real world ideas and imagine that 'plasteel' and 'adamantium' are simply things we all know today but renamed. Others prefer the "its a totally fictionally newly discovered/created material far beyond what the 21st century have."

 Deadshot wrote:
We have accounted for all other elements thus far - at one point there was many fewer elements on the table. Its entirely possible for a super dense stable non-radioactive metal, simply not theorised because it obeys an as of yet unknown law of physics. Remember, at one point the elements also contained Water, Fire and Air.

But then it would be so dense you couldn't build anything with it or it would collapse under its own weight. For reference, we are running into the fact that STEEL is too dense in our modern day constructions and iron is relatively low on the periodic table.

 Deadshot wrote:
Third, adamantium is simply a bygone name for Unobtainium, which in itself is a catch-all term for "Fictionally supermetal far beyond anything we know today." The other prominent example of Adamantium in fiction is Marvel's Wolverine and others, and given that 40k was made by 2 nerds in the 80s and full of references, I'd bet the mortgage that they picked that one during to Marvel. Source inspiration aside, this means that adamantium is just a term to use instead of "Fictional Super Metal better than everything ever discovered." Therefore it could not be titanium or an alloy of it as its original intent. Any references or hints in novels is just because some writers, like some Dakka posters, prefer to ground themselves in real world ideas and imagine that 'plasteel' and 'adamantium' are simply things we all know today but renamed. Others prefer the "its a totally fictionally newly discovered/created material far beyond what the 21st century have."

Except it is not. If adamantium were described as an alloy I would have no problem with the handwaving, but it is specifically described as a naturally occurring element, which means it MUST be on the periodic table and it has to make sense, unless you are throwing away physics and chemistry as we know it in the 40k universe. Suspension of disbelief is a thing. I am fine with things like warp drives that use fethery to accomplish crazy things in areas of science we don't really understand yet. What I am not ok with are things contradicting known and easily observable laws of physics.

w1zard wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
We have accounted for all other elements thus far - at one point there was many fewer elements on the table. Its entirely possible for a super dense stable non-radioactive metal, simply not theorised because it obeys an as of yet unknown law of physics. Remember, at one point the elements also contained Water, Fire and Air.

But then it would be so dense you couldn't build anything with it or it would collapse under its own weight. For reference, we are running into the fact that STEEL is too dense in our modern day constructions and iron is relatively low on the periodic table.

'

Clearly 40k materials science is in excess of our own, could it be by the 41st Millinium the periodic table as we now understand it has simply been... disproven?

w1zard wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I’m not sire the periodic table was in their thoughts when they made up adamantium. They needed and super tough super duarable space metal to make their space armour out of for their space warriors. Nothing to do with where it comes or it’s atomic number.

And I think one on them liked Adam ant.

Making up things on the periodic table is impossible, there's no way to have fractions of a proton in the nucleus of the atom, and we have accounted for all other elements.

There is a fairly well-established and accepted theory that predicts an island of stability in the periodic table for elements with proton numbers above 120, with element 126 being a leading candidate according to the nuclear shell model. If such an element was stable long-term, it's entirely possible it could have properties like those described in the 40k background. It's unlikely to be naturally occurring, though if it's stable there is the possibility it could exist somewhere and with the galaxy being a big place there's no reason it couldn't have been created somewhere out there and therefore be able to be mined.

w1zard wrote:
it is specifically described as a naturally occurring element, which means it MUST be on the periodic table and it has to make sense, .

Show me Carbon 14 on the periodic table... you can't because it isn't there. Adamantium could be a 'trade name' (or similar colloquial name) for a stable isotope of a material that is already there, but is as yet undiscovered (or simply doesn't exist on earth). So it can be both, a naturally occurring material, and not on the periodic table.
It could also be beyond the table, atomic weight of 119+.

Slipspace wrote:
There is a fairly well-established and accepted theory that predicts an island of stability in the periodic table for elements with proton numbers above 120, with element 126 being a leading candidate according to the nuclear shell model. If such an element was stable long-term, it's entirely possible it could have properties like those described in the 40k background. It's unlikely to be naturally occurring, though if it's stable there is the possibility it could exist somewhere and with the galaxy being a big place there's no reason it couldn't have been created somewhere out there and therefore be able to be mined.

*cough* But then it would be so dense you couldn't build anything with it or it would collapse under its own weight. For reference, we are running into the fact that STEEL is too dense in our modern day constructions and iron is relatively low on the periodic table.

 Kcalehc wrote:
It could also be beyond the table, atomic weight of 119+.

*cough* But then it would be so dense you couldn't build anything with it or it would collapse under its own weight. For reference, we are running into the fact that STEEL is too dense in our modern day constructions and iron is relatively low on the periodic table.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Show me Carbon 14 on the periodic table... you can't because it isn't there. Adamantium could be a 'trade name' (or similar colloquial name) for a stable isotope of a material that is already there, but is as yet undiscovered (or simply doesn't exist on earth). So it can be both, a naturally occurring material, and not on the periodic table.

An isotope of carbon is still carbon. If this is seriously your argument you need to retake basic chemistry.

Adamantium's made up. GW says it's naturally occurring. Therefore, it is.

Our modern understanding of the periodic table (which is still just a theory, as is all science) is not the same as the one GW invented for a whole new set of physics for 40k.