Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I dont know how much more 40k lore i can take xD It gets worse the more i get to know!

Boltguns fire armour penetrating rockets?! xD

S4 0 AP

When is GW going to do a game with immersive lore? That is, integrity between the books and the battlefield. Never, is when!

Northern85Star wrote:

Boltguns fire armour penetrating rockets?! S4 0 AP

When is GW going to do a game with immersive lore? That is, integrity between the books and the battlefield. Never, is when!

There's only so much you can do with a d6 system, as mentioned, and armies have to be balanced in some way. And GW wants to sell models ofc.

But IIRC the problem with a bolter vs low- or unarmored targets is usually overpenetration. The bolt blows a .75 hole in the target but fails to detonate or detonates several meters later. The warhead can be set to explode from lighter resistance but then it won't get through battlefield debris, dense brush or other more substantial cover. But the marines keep them anyway as the sound of the rocket and the explosions is so awesome and panic-inducing.

Spetulhu wrote:
But the marines keep them anyway as the sound of the rocket and the explosions is so awesome and panic-inducing.

This is one thing the tabletop rules utterly fail to represents, other than the Reivers. Marines are SHOCK TROOPS. They are there to get in, rip things a new one and then get out.

HexHammer wrote:
Never understood the reverse weaponry of IG and SM.

IG got ballistic based tanks, artillery and (some) air, then a few las gun thingies, but infantry with las rifles and pistols?
SM on the other hand has tanks with las guns, but infantry with old fashion ballistic bullets?

Imo SM should have the las guns so they can do all the awesome precision things, shooting targets from very far distance with extreme accuracy, easily shooting aircrafts etc.

IG should have the inaccurate old fashioned bullet based guns, that runs out of ammo, produces smoke and makes lots of noise.

Ballistic based weaponry are sensitive to wind and weather, if the target moves suddenly when you fire, the projectile will miss. Besides the amount of ammo you have to carry around would be insane just for a few weeks engagement.
On the contrary with a las based weapon a SM could in theory have unlimited supply of ammo with his powerpack.

One word - Logistics.

Lasguns are cheap to mass produce and are extremely reliable.
Boltguns are powerful, but need maintenance and are a bit more expensive. Marines would know how to maintain, guardsmen wouldn't unless they receive training. Which is time consuming and wasted on a soldier with low battlefield life expectancy.

Also, you are wrong about what ammunition boltguns use. They do not use bullets; they fire miniature rockets.
Autoguns use bullets, and some IG regiments use those, iirc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
But the marines keep them anyway as the sound of the rocket and the explosions is so awesome and panic-inducing.

This is one thing the tabletop rules utterly fail to represents, other than the Reivers. Marines are SHOCK TROOPS. They are there to get in, rip things a new one and then get out.

I wished they kept morale / psychology rules, such as pinning and what not. They could have reworked it into a suppression type rule. Instead soldiers just die when they get scared, and I find that to be a bit bland in terms of mechanics. Oh, its functional, just boring.

Northern85Star wrote:
I dont know how much more 40k lore i can take xD It gets worse the more i get to know!

Boltguns fire armour penetrating rockets?! xD

S4 0 AP

When is GW going to do a game with immersive lore? That is, integrity between the books and the battlefield. Never, is when!

They used to be AP5, ignoring anything less than Fire Warrior/Eldar Guardian armour, such as Imperial guard flak armour, most Orks and tyranid swarms, etc. To put in context, Imperial flak armour in pre-8th was a 5+ save, capable of saving vs Frag Grenades and Heavy stubbers (equivilent of a modern 50cal HMG). So they were accurately represented.

8th ed throws out lore representation in favour of balance and brownnosing up the new Bolt Rifle as the armour puncturing beast.

Yeah, boltguns used to be able to pierce light armor (5+) saves. Now they are just stronger lasguns. It was probably to push the boltrifle, even though the extra range would have been enough distinction.

Wondering why Astartes don’t have lasguns is exactly the reason why Astartes will always always always be more destructive and violent than Storm Troopers. Because that’s what you get when your staple elite soldier has a flash light for a weapon and not an automatic cannon with exploding armour piercing rounds.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ideally Space Marines would use Custodes stats to better represent their fluff, but then Custodes would have to somehow be EVEN BETTAH, which is not possible to do well in a D6 based system.

custodes should be like Calgar level - every single one of them.

Mellow wrote:
Wondering why Astartes don’t have lasguns is exactly the reason why Astartes will always always always be more destructive and violent than Storm Troopers. Because that’s what you get when your staple elite soldier has a flash light for a weapon and not an automatic cannon with exploding armour piercing rounds.

Considering that ''flashlight'' can pierce through power armor, I think its a pretty good weapon.

HexHammer wrote:
Never understood the reverse weaponry of IG and SM.

IG got ballistic based tanks, artillery and (some) air, then a few las gun thingies, but infantry with las rifles and pistols?
SM on the other hand has tanks with las guns, but infantry with old fashion ballistic bullets?

Imo SM should have the las guns so they can do all the awesome precision things, shooting targets from very far distance with extreme accuracy, easily shooting aircrafts etc.

IG should have the inaccurate old fashioned bullet based guns, that runs out of ammo, produces smoke and makes lots of noise.

Ballistic based weaponry are sensitive to wind and weather, if the target moves suddenly when you fire, the projectile will miss. Besides the amount of ammo you have to carry around would be insane just for a few weeks engagement.
On the contrary with a las based weapon a SM could in theory have unlimited supply of ammo with his powerpack.

Lasguns aren't that really good for real armour, boltguns can puncture much heavier armour than a lasgun and if they do penetrate they are devastating, only a SM or Ork etc. have the physiology's to survive a bolt going off inside them. Plus anyone knows that if you submerge explosives they are even deadlier due to the increase in pressure. Also bang bang bang is far better than pew pew pew lol

Lasers are also an inferior weapon to ballistics unless the scale is large. A lasgun is really weak because of the power requirement in something that can be carried by a single human. A Hot Shot lasgun requires a power cable going to a backpack to have enough energy, it's still S3. To have a destructive las weapon you have to move up to a lascannon or a multi las which are not usable by a single normal human. They're huge, and have giant power cells.

A bolter however is far stronger than a laser weapon of similar size. A Space Marine isn't going to use a rifle sized laser weapon cause they're too weak. They're not going to issue a stronger laser gun standard issue because of the size issues.

Look at the Eldar, they manage to have rifle sized laser weapons that don't suck because their technology is way better than humans. They can manage a power source that's better while still being small.

This is a thought I've had a few times over the years, but considering how strong marines are, it's a bit weird that there isn't a heavy bolter equivalent of a las weapon, well there is the multi laser, but there isn't one available to marines that is portable...

Surely something could be developed that had the punch of a hot shot but with more power still that is still portable, and marines could surely carry the backpack with ease to power it, heck it could be feeding straight into the marine power pack to power it.

I mean, bolters are obviously the reason why, but still another las weapon could be incorporated into the game, even if it's marines that aren't using it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The psychological factor of bolt weapons, specifically on humans is also a reason why they are used, they are load and brash. Lasguns no matter what star wars tells you do not make sounds.

Like the hotshot volley gun?

Even Eldar Las weapons tend to either be man-portable S3 (A4, though), or heavy S6 weapons not used on foot.

Why would Marines need a laser weapon? They aren't intended for prolonged engagements, so ammo availability isn't as much of a concern.

If you're thinking of a backup weapon in case they do run out of ammo, you do know they spit acid, right? That's going to outperform carrying some las-pistol backup sidearm in the case that the boltgun and bolt pistol break. And another bolt clip is going to outperform that las-pistol in the case of ammo running out.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Like the hotshot volley gun?

Of course. Forgot about that one.

Honestly I feel that IG shouldn't have had access to bolt weapons of any kind - surely way too much logistics required. Keep them with lasers, have multi-laser HWTs instead of HB.

In old lore, the multilaser (and in fact all laser weapons) is powered by the same power pack as the humble lasgun, just fewer shots per pack, but holds more of them. Which for the IG simplified the logistics immensely, and allows your heavy weapons to keep firing by taking cells from the other troopers (or dead ones, of which I'm sure there'll be plenty!). And in vehicles with their own power sources, means less ammo to cook off when your armor is penetrated.

HexHammer wrote:
Never understood the reverse weaponry of IG and SM.
Of
IG got ballistic based tanks, artillery and (some) air, then a few las gun thingies, but infantry with las rifles and pistols?
SM on the other hand has tanks with las guns, but infantry with old fashion ballistic bullets?

Imo SM should have the las guns so they can do all the awesome precision things, shooting targets from very far distance with extreme accuracy, easily shooting aircrafts etc.

IG should have the inaccurate old fashioned bullet based guns, that runs out of ammo, produces smoke and makes lots of noise.

Ballistic based weaponry are sensitive to wind and weather, if the target moves suddenly when you fire, the projectile will miss. Besides the amount of ammo you have to carry around would be insane just for a few weeks engagement.
On the contrary with a las based weapon a SM could in theory have unlimited supply of ammo with his powerpack.

In order to judge this fairly, we need to accept the premise of the swap and assume appropriate lore.

In this althammer 40k, the secrets of laser tech are only held by a few forgeworlds. Man portable laser weapons are reserved for the Angels of death, who wield godhammer pattern lascannon, Goto pattern multilasers and fearsome Mortis pattern hellguns, bulked up laser rifles that can blow a man to ash and cinders in a single shot. Preachers on distant worlds scream furiously of the Emperor's mighty angels and their weapons of pure light.

The Imperial guard is armed with the autogun, a marvel of 41st millennium engineering. It fires caseless ammunition which can be produced in even backwater outposts and accepts a variety of calibres and more primitive ammunition types, allowing ammunition to be salvaged from friendly units or even enemy combatants. On industrial worlds cyclopean factorums churn out endless streams of autorounds for the vast warzones of the Imperium and yet it is not enough! Factory ships in the crusade fleets stripmine asteroids en route to the muster worlds and still whole companies find themselves out of ammunition reduced to bayonet charges to break the enemy lines.

Boltguns are ballistic weapons that fire small unguided rockets that blow lightly armoured targets apart. They are mostly used as point defense weapons on shipping containers where the impractical violent threat they pose acts as a deterrent.

Thematically this all works well- the marines get the obviously sci-fi lasers and the guard get the near-future battle rifles. All marine solid fire weaponry can be converted to appropriate lastype, demolisher cannons are small turbo lasers , heavybolters are multilasers, whirlwind artillery tanks are guiding orbital/drone laser strikes.

The problem in my view is translating this to models. The basic guardsman is recognisable as such through a pauldron if he has one and his lasgun. Otherwise he could be a Laurence of Arabia or WWI/II cosplayer minature. I don't think autoguns as presently designed are visually distinct enough to get that effect. It is hard to get a weapon that is a clear successor of today's weapons looking different enough so that it doesn't just look like a bolt action figure.

Marines can get away with all energy weapons if they want (as the heresy ably demonstrates) but I think they lose some grit in the process.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:This is a thought I've had a few times over the years, but considering how strong marines are, it's a bit weird that there isn't a heavy bolter equivalent of a las weapon, well there is the multi laser, but there isn't one available to marines that is portable...

Surely something could be developed that had the punch of a hot shot but with more power still that is still portable, and marines could surely carry the backpack with ease to power it, heck it could be feeding straight into the marine power pack to power it.

I mean, bolters are obviously the reason why, but still another las weapon could be incorporated into the game, even if it's marines that aren't using it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The psychological factor of bolt weapons, specifically on humans is also a reason why they are used, they are load and brash. Lasguns no matter what star wars tells you do not make sounds.

I agree on the psychological warfare aspect - on one hand, bolters make a meaty roar of ignition jets and explode your foes into tiny chunks of viscera. Lasguns make a slight hiss and crack as they superheat the water in the target and sear off the top layer of armour (because while the gun itself makes no pew pew noise, the laws of energy do not allow all of the energy from the laser to be changed into heat. Some is lost as light and some as sound. Dust, water vapour and skin all evaporating in a microsecond would surely make a noise. That's also not to say there is no "charging up" sound from the power pack).

However, going away from that - Bolters are loud and gorey. Lasguns are quiet and very helpful, cauterising enemy wounds so they dont bleed out!

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
This is a thought I've had a few times over the years, but considering how strong marines are, it's a bit weird that there isn't a heavy bolter equivalent of a las weapon, well there is the multi laser, but there isn't one available to marines that is portable...

Surely something could be developed that had the punch of a hot shot but with more power still that is still portable, and marines could surely carry the backpack with ease to power it, heck it could be feeding straight into the marine power pack to power it.

I mean, bolters are obviously the reason why, but still another las weapon could be incorporated into the game, even if it's marines that aren't using it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The psychological factor of bolt weapons, specifically on humans is also a reason why they are used, they are load and brash. Lasguns no matter what star wars tells you do not make sounds.

Yeah, if only there was something like that in existence... like a larger lasgun, they could call it a "lascannon" or something, I don't know...

 Anfauglir wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
This is a thought I've had a few times over the years, but considering how strong marines are, it's a bit weird that there isn't a heavy bolter equivalent of a las weapon, well there is the multi laser, but there isn't one available to marines that is portable...

Surely something could be developed that had the punch of a hot shot but with more power still that is still portable, and marines could surely carry the backpack with ease to power it, heck it could be feeding straight into the marine power pack to power it.

I mean, bolters are obviously the reason why, but still another las weapon could be incorporated into the game, even if it's marines that aren't using it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The psychological factor of bolt weapons, specifically on humans is also a reason why they are used, they are load and brash. Lasguns no matter what star wars tells you do not make sounds.

Yeah, if only there was something like that in existence... like a larger lasgun, they could call it a "lascannon" or something, I don't know...

Rule #1 please! - BrookM

Such as...a multilaser?

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
This is a thought I've had a few times over the years, but considering how strong marines are, it's a bit weird that there isn't a heavy bolter equivalent of a las weapon, well there is the multi laser, but there isn't one available to marines that is portable...

Surely something could be developed that had the punch of a hot shot but with more power still that is still portable, and marines could surely carry the backpack with ease to power it, heck it could be feeding straight into the marine power pack to power it.

I mean, bolters are obviously the reason why, but still another las weapon could be incorporated into the game, even if it's marines that aren't using it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The psychological factor of bolt weapons, specifically on humans is also a reason why they are used, they are load and brash. Lasguns no matter what star wars tells you do not make sounds.

You've missed the obvious my friend. Lasers don't make noise so all las weapons and Star Wars blasters have a built in device that makes the shooting noise.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Here we have someone so desperate to flex their balls on the internet, they totally miss the point. I was talking about a low to mid power multi shot laser weapon, that could shoot effectively on the move, not a 1 shot tank killer. Pleb.

Touched a nerve, did I? Re-read your post that I quoted; you're literally describing what a lascannon is. Las-based heavy weapon similar to what a Heavy Bolter is to a regular Bolter? Check. Can be used as a heavy weapon by an Imperial Gaurd weapons team, like a Heavy Bolter? Check. Can be carried and used as a portable heavy weapon/anti-armour by Marines, like the Heavy Bolter? Check. It even plugs into their backpack/powerpack via cables, just like you described? Check! Wow, amazing, huh? Dingus.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Such as...a multilaser?

Shhhh! Don't point out obvious things that exist and match what they're describing... this one's feelings are delicate.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Such as...a multilaser?

Shhhh! Don't point out obvious things that exist and match what they're describing... this one's feelings are delicate.

Don't you know? Marines using Multilasers is totally a thing, while they backflip onto Razorbacks!

 Anfauglir wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Here we have someone so desperate to flex their balls on the internet, they totally miss the point. I was talking about a low to mid power multi shot laser weapon, that could shoot effectively on the move, not a 1 shot tank killer. Pleb.

Touched a nerve, did I? Re-read your post that I quoted; you're literally describing what a lascannon is. Las-based heavy weapon similar to what a Heavy Bolter is to a regular Bolter? Check. Can be used as a heavy weapon by an Imperial Gaurd weapons team, like a Heavy Bolter? Check. Can be carried and used as a portable heavy weapon/anti-armour by Marines, like the Heavy Bolter? Check. It even plugs into their backpack/powerpack via cables, just like you described? Check! Wow, amazing, huh? Dingus.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Such as...a multilaser?

Shhhh! Don't point out obvious things that exist and match what they're describing... this one's feelings are delicate.

Actually a lastalon would be more fitting as it is at least a multi shot. I was looking at a MULTI SHOT weapon. Not a one shot. REMOVED

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Actually a lastalon would be more fitting as it is at least a multi shot. I was looking at a MULTI SHOT weapon. Not a one shot. REMOVED

Well it's a good job you never specified as such in your initial description then, otherwise I'd have looked pretty silly there instead of you.







Removed - RULE #1 people!

 Anfauglir wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
This is a thought I've had a few times over the years, but considering how strong marines are, it's a bit weird that there isn't a heavy bolter equivalent of a las weapon, well there is the multi laser, but there isn't one available to marines that is portable...

Surely something could be developed that had the punch of a hot shot but with more power still that is still portable, and marines could surely carry the backpack with ease to power it, heck it could be feeding straight into the marine power pack to power it.

I mean, bolters are obviously the reason why, but still another las weapon could be incorporated into the game, even if it's marines that aren't using it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The psychological factor of bolt weapons, specifically on humans is also a reason why they are used, they are load and brash. Lasguns no matter what star wars tells you do not make sounds.

Yeah, if only there was something like that in existence... like a larger lasgun, they could call it a "lascannon" or something, I don't know...

Except Lascannons, even on space marines, are barely portable. A Space marine has to move slowly and carry a massive power pack. They fire slowly and advance slowly and are poor for anti-infantry and overkill vs light vehicles. Bolters can do all that of that. Plus Lascannons are extremely rare and complex and bolters arent, comparatively

 Deadshot wrote:
Except Lascannons, even on space marines, are barely portable. A Space marine has to move slowly and carry a massive power pack. They fire slowly and advance slowly and are poor for anti-infantry and overkill vs light vehicles. Bolters can do all that of that. Plus Lascannons are extremely rare and complex and bolters arent, comparatively

Except that Heavy Bolters sufer the exact same penalties to movement on the TT, making this an entirely irrelevant counterpoint to my post - which, in context, was simply pointing out that the poster was describing, in a nutshell, a lascannon, whilst lamenting that there's nothing in the setting like a lascannon. Pretty simple... unless "las equivalent Heavy Bolter" suddenly means something different to what I think it means.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Except Lascannons, even on space marines, are barely portable. A Space marine has to move slowly and carry a massive power pack. They fire slowly and advance slowly and are poor for anti-infantry and overkill vs light vehicles. Bolters can do all that of that. Plus Lascannons are extremely rare and complex and bolters arent, comparatively

Except that Heavy Bolters sufer the exact same penalties to movement on the TT, making this an entirely irrelevant counterpoint to my post - which, in context, was simply pointing out that the poster was describing, in a nutshell, a lascannon, whilst lamenting that there's nothing in the setting like a lascannon. Pretty simple... unless "las equivalent Heavy Bolter" suddenly means something different to what I think it means.

Well a Heavy Bolter is a large MG type weapon that fires larger caliber rounds to a standard infantry weapon, designed for anti-infantry work, much like modern LMGs and HMGs. A Lascannon is a single shot superlaser designed to one-shot a tank. They do entirely different jobs. The weapon you're looking for is Multilaser, a rapid firing laser.

Also, this is the background section. TT is irrelevant right now as its an abstract of the background.

Yeah, the multilaser would be the laser based analogue to a heavy bolter.