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Got a little off topic here. I wasnt wanting to start a faction debate, but I appreciate folks remaining civil. I think guardsmen are good for the lore. I think the setting needs a human faction who are mostly at a disadvantage in most scenarios, so you get that warm fuzzy feeling when they overcome the odds.
Personally I like reading SM books, but usually only those where they are fighting other SM, to make it a bit more even.

 Hive City Dweller wrote:

Danny76 wrote:


Going back to the science of a space marine bit.
Love the biology post, and yeah lots of it seems true.
I feel they can explain a lot of that away by just saying - imagine how different we will see medicine/biology in 8000 years, let alone the far future.
(Not so long ago headaches were demons and skulls were drilled and all sorts of other weird things).

Some points I can’t argue and they would never change, Omaphage looking at you, it others maybe future mumbo jumbo explains some away.

“the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with.”
You give them this one anyway, but REM - it’s necessary in the standard brain, but with the Catalepsan maybe it is no longer necessary?

What I’m saying is, the organs may change the way the body works now, not just add the abilities they list (which counter some of what we know presently).
You know, that kind of thing.


Basically, Hive City Dweller, I loved your post, and it was a great read and all true, but ya know, the future. And stuff

All space marines start out as regular humans and become genetically engineered super soldiers! This premise is hard to accept because all we know about genetics doesn't allow you to take a fully formed organism (eg a human child) and transform it into something entirety different like a super-human adult marine.

That simply isn't true.

Firstly, a child is not a fully formed organism - that is why its called a child.

Secondly, the technology to edit genes in "fully formed organisms" already exists.

A good example is gene therapy.

http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/131/9/952

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:
"Blood Angels Aspirants are selected at a periodic tournament known as the Angel's Fall, on Baal Secundus. Although hundreds, possibly thousands, of challengers participate in the violent games and contests held there, only fifty victorious Aspirants are selected. These fifty are then taken to the Fortress Monastery on Baal, where they will hopefully be able to withstand even more tests before becoming Neophytes"

A death match between hundreds of untrained, mostly poorly fed 10 to 13 years old boy isn't as good as taking well fed 6 years old training them for 6 years in combat with experiemented trainers including and then only selecting the very best out of them after a battery of deadly tests for further training. Also amongst those 50 some will simply die due to genetic incompatibility with the geneseed and these are totally random, you might lose your very best recruit to that. Plus you only get boys and no girls, that constrict your talent pool. That's a nice ritual way of recruiting for a knightly order of warrior, but it's far from being the most efficient. Assessing the full potential for war of a human before the end of puberty is also nearly impossible and yet all neophyte are selected before that for the process of transformation into Space Marne to work. Good thing they are well trained after that.

So if I traveled to brazil, picked 2000 kids age 10-14 from the slums, had them play football matches against each other, picked the best 50, then kept them playing futher, and then again, picking the best 25-30.

Then, after 5 years of training, I pit each of them against a child who has been randomly chosen from a wealthy family, and received training from the age of 6 and onwards.

Looking at the math, would you seriously put your money on that randomly chosen kid?

Also, regarding aspirants from death worlds etc: https://www.newsmax.com/health/health-news/bone-strength-study-hopkins/2015/05/18/id/645319/

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah but your still wrong. They aren't trained more extensively and if you are going to compare an elite force you should compare it to another elite force and in that case vet SM's have a hundred if not hundreds of years on those human elites.

If you want to compare 1st Company Veteran, you need to compare them to Celestians with similar level of experience and age thanks to rejuvenat and bionics.

well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.

All guardsmen are from their local PDF and more than that they are usually from their very best regiments since providing poor guardsmen as tithe to the Imperial Guard is something that can get governors killed. Yes, some guards will be little more than vicious gangsters, pit fighters and militia, but other might be highly trained soldiers. Imperial Guards are very varied in term of quality, uniforms and doctrine. A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight, etc.

No not in all cases, what do you not understand about 'trained on the voyage' Frankly how guard homeworlds train and organise etc are completely contingent on that world. They are not all the same, actually they vary quite a lot.

"A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight" This is ridiculous, a SM company can take a whole world and would wipe out a guard regiment easily even cadians.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.

Potentially, they don't get enough training. But that'd be an anomaly rather than the norm.

For threat response, the guard will send the closest regiments first (these ones were posted there and so are experienced), if those fail then they will start pooling from an ever-wider sector and at that point raise new regiments. Generally speaking, most regiments have some battle experience and new regiments are just plugging holes. As the regiments fight they gain experience but take casualties, and old regiments are merged to make room for new ones. (though the Vostroyans will never merge and instead directly replenish their regiments, which leads to regiments that date back several thousand years) All this to say that the majority of the fighting forces employed are not only trained but also experienced.

But, the big thing to note is that the training is only to get the troops to fight cohesively and effectively. Hive gangers or Catachan troops tend to be more robust but less disciplined and so prove effective even if formal training is minimal.

Dandelion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.

Potentially, they don't get enough training. But that'd be an anomaly rather than the norm.

For threat response, the guard will send the closest regiments first (these ones were posted there and so are experienced), if those fail then they will start pooling from an ever-wider sector and at that point raise new regiments. Generally speaking, most regiments have some battle experience and new regiments are just plugging holes. As the regiments fight they gain experience but take casualties, and old regiments are merged to make room for new ones. (though the Vostroyans will never merge and instead directly replenish their regiments, which leads to regiments that date back several thousand years) All this to say that the majority of the fighting forces employed are not only trained but also experienced.

But, the big thing to note is that the training is only to get the troops to fight cohesively and effectively. Hive gangers or Catachan troops tend to be more robust but less disciplined and so prove effective even if formal training is minimal.

Yeah well not quite a myth, so you are comparing the least training a marine does which is decades, with guard which is virtually nothing. Then compare the most a marine does which is centuries, with the most a guardsmen will do, which isn't even close. I mean its ridiculous we are even arguing this. Guardsmen and SM's are not even in the same universe when it comes to training.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
"A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight"

This is singularly the stupidest thing I've ever heard

In Cadian Blood by ADB, a Platoon of Cadians massacres a squad of 7 Death Guard Plague Marines. They lost 13 of their guys to the seven. A regiment is about 20 platoons. A company is about 10 squads. Looks like the stupidest thing you've ever heard happened in a book.

I think it makes sense for Cadians to be a threat to Space Marines considering the fact that their world, populated by half a billion people, is the first line of defense against the legions of Chaos. Cadians fight a lot of Chaos Space Marines. They need to be able to defeat them else why not make Cadia a Chapter World?

There's also the 10 Kasrkins and a psyker killing 2 Plague Marines and losing 3 Kasrkins in return.

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
"A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight"

This is singularly the stupidest thing I've ever heard

In Cadian Blood by ADB, a Platoon of Cadians massacres a squad of 7 Death Guard Plague Marines. They lost 13 of their guys to the seven. A regiment is about 20 platoons. A company is about 10 squads. Looks like the stupidest thing you've ever heard happened in a book.

I think it makes sense for Cadians to be a threat to Space Marines considering the fact that their world, populated by half a billion people, is the first line of defense against the legions of Chaos. Cadians fight a lot of Chaos Space Marines. They need to be able to defeat them else why not make Cadia a Chapter World?

Just because its possible doesn't make it the norm and yes that's pretty stupid writing if that is the norm in guard noevels, but like I said biased fans makes for biased lore. If they have heavy weapons squads and tanks etc. but just guard with flashlights, yeah thats quite unbelievable. In all other lore, guardsmen are pretty much irritants unless completely outnumbered. Yeah they can beat SM's in superior numbers. Thats the point of the guard, superior numbers.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Just because its possible doesn't make it the norm and yes that's pretty stupid writing if that is the norm in guard noevels, but like I said biased fans makes for biased lore. Yeah they can beat SM's in superior numbers. Thats the point of the guard, superior numbers.

Of course it's pretty much the norm in guards novel because in guards novel you usually follow remarcable guard regiments and individuals just like in Space Marine novels you follow exceptional Space Marines from exceptional Chapters.

Indeed, nobody ever argued that guardsmen can defeat Space Marine in one on one (except if the one guardsmen is manning a cannon and the Space Marine is running up a field with a chainsword).

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

In all other lore, guardsmen are pretty much irritants unless completely outnumbered.

I think the words you're looking for here is ''in other biased books'' let's not pretend Guard novels are the only ones with a faction bias.

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Just because its possible doesn't make it the norm and yes that's pretty stupid writing if that is the norm in guard noevels, but like I said biased fans makes for biased lore. Yeah they can beat SM's in superior numbers. Thats the point of the guard, superior numbers.

Of course it's pretty much the norm in guards novel because in guards novel you usually follow remarcable guard regiments and individuals just like in Space Marine novels you follow exceptional Space Marines from exceptional Chapters.

Indeed, nobody ever argued that guardsmen can defeat Space Marine in one on one (except if the one guardsmen is manning a cannon and the Space Marine is running up a field with a chainsword).

If guard were that good, what is the point in SM's, why bother making them and valuing their production.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

In all other lore, guardsmen are pretty much irritants unless completely outnumbered.

I think the words you're looking for here is ''in other biased books'' let's not pretend Guard novels are the only ones with a faction bias.

Of course but a marine being worth a hundred guardsmen isn't biased, its well established lore. A squad or two taking down the toughest SM's in existence is what you call biased. I mean come on, you's are trying to state that Scions ect are better trained than marines, I mean I don't have to look hard to see who's biased here.

I think with the "women can't be astartes" thing, they could easily explain it away as "the astartes-making process requires a particular balance of testosterone to estrogen otherwise the freaky cocktail of drugs we pump into you doesn't take properly, they were working on getting it working properly before the Heresy, but we've been a bit busy for the last 10,000 years".

So it more than likely works for some women, the same as it may not work for some men, and the Imperium is busy trying to keep itself afloat to focus on getting the mix right and just sticking with what they know works at the moment. And in terms of 'well why aren't there already female marines?', well they know it works the vast majority of the time on men, and minimal times on women, so why bother dumping resources into something that's more than likely going to fail when you can just take the safe bet and just make more manrines.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


If guard were that good, what is the point in SM's, why bother making them and valuing their production.

Two words: force concentration.

Space Marines are worth several guardsmen, even of the best ones, as such for spear tips assault or special operation like destroying an enemy HQ or a precious asset they are very useful. Also Space Marines have their own fleet and are self sustained thanks to their homeworld. As such they are very quick to be deployed and make for perfect scouts and first intervention force should a world be under assault. They are also ideal for hunting pirates and very mobile raiders. Space Marines fight where they want when they want while guards are deployed via a cumbersome bureaucracy.The Imperium needs all its army branch to survive. Overall, Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and Scions are minor actors in the Imperium defense compared to the Guard,the Navy, the Mechanicus and the PDFs.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
The Tyranids having hooves; it just doesn't look right to me.

I imagine it is an attempt to move the visuals away from space dinosaurs.

Being dinosaur locusts is what makes them cool though...

 Grimskul wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.

Because the space marines are the elite of the elite special forces. Their method of "pacification" is kill any living thing that isn't a space marine in X meter radius. Occupation is not something a space marine does, that is a job for the guard. They exist to apply overwhelming force in a small area when a lance strike from space wont do for whatever reason. That is their only purpose and they are fairly useless outside of that from a strictly military perspective.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what the purpose of a SM is, but even with all their tech and strike force capabilities, 100 guys are not enough to cover the ground necessary for even some of the most basic areas, like hive cities. It probably doesn't help that GW, for varities sake, likes to give stories where marines are thrown outside of this area of expertise and still do well somehow, even though they don't have the sustainability for it. Having the extra numbers just makes it more palatable as far as fluff details go.

Eh, I can see 100 Space Marines clear out a small-ish hive city after a couple of days of nonstop fighting, assuming only light resistance. You have to remember that marines can fight for days on end without stopping or sleeping, and they move much more quickly and maneuver more swiftly than normal troops. I always use the rule of thumb that 1 space marine can do the work of a platoon of veteran guardsman in any given situation.

 Bobthehero wrote:
A platoon is way overkill

I disagree. 40-50 men with lasguns and a couple of emplaced weapons sounds roughly on par with a supersoldier with the armor of a light tank, that moves twice to three times as quickly as a normal man can run, and has ten times the reflex speed of a regular human. Said supersoldier probably has better aim on the move than most regular human snipers have standing still, and wields a 100 caliber automatic grenade launcher with armor piercing rounds that it fires like a normal human fires a sub-machinegun.

I don't think that a Space Marine is worth hundreds of guardsmen, even if it's just guardsmen armed with lasguns, because enough lasgun shots WILL kill a marine. But I think a platoon is a good approximation.

Now stormtroopers on the other hand... I can see a full squad (10) of stormtroopers take out a single Astarte. Considering that their armor can stop a bolter round, their guns were specifically designed to penetrate things like space marine armor, and they have been pretty much trained from birth to know nothing except war, much like Space Marines themselves.

Again, this is coming from a guard player since 3rd edition who has almost 0 interest in Space Marines (I am still considering building a Dark Angels Primaris force, but don't know if I want to spend the money on a faction I am not that into).

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


If guard were that good, what is the point in SM's, why bother making them and valuing their production.

Two words: force concentration.

Space Marines are worth several guardsmen, even of the best ones, as such for spear tips assault or special operation like destroying an enemy HQ or a precious asset they are very useful. Also Space Marines have their own fleet and are self sustained thanks to their homeworld. As such they are very quick to be deployed and make for perfect scouts and first intervention force should a world be under assault. They are also ideal for hunting pirates and very mobile raiders. Space Marines fight where they want when they want while guards are deployed via a cumbersome bureaucracy.The Imperium needs all its army branch to survive. Overall, Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and Scions are minor actors in the Imperium defense compared to the Guard,the Navy, the Mechanicus and the PDFs.

SM's are worth 7 guardsmen. I'm seriously not even going to continue arguing with you and FYI guard have their own fleet.

Just because they are minor elements doesn't mean guard are on their level, actually never mind, there is no point.

If you're going to argue numbers of how many guardsmen a space marine is worth, the most reliable source for numbers we have indicates they're about three guardsmen...

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If you're going to argue numbers of how many guardsmen a space marine is worth, the most reliable source for numbers we have indicates they're about three guardsmen...

lol

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If you're going to argue numbers of how many guardsmen a space marine is worth, the most reliable source for numbers we have indicates they're about three guardsmen...

Dorn said "give me a 100 astartes, failing that give me 1000 other troops"

Its not the exact quote, but the numbers are correct.

One thing I hate about the lore is the small (but very vocal) part of the fandom that takes it too seriously.

I also hate how one of my favorite factions has fluff that sounds like it was written by an angsty teenager.

 Kelligula wrote:
The only thing I hate about the lore is the small (but very vocal) part of the fandom that takes it too seriously.

I also hate how one of my favorite factions has fluff that sounds like it was written by an angsty teenager.

What legions that? DA TS or BA are the only ones that come to mind.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Kelligula wrote:
The only thing I hate about the lore is the small (but very vocal) part of the fandom that takes it too seriously.

I also hate how one of my favorite factions has fluff that sounds like it was written by an angsty teenager.

What legions that?

Dark Eldar.

 Kelligula wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Kelligula wrote:
The only thing I hate about the lore is the small (but very vocal) part of the fandom that takes it too seriously.

I also hate how one of my favorite factions has fluff that sounds like it was written by an angsty teenager.

What legions that?

Dark Eldar.

I like the DE lore. I don't get that from them, they are sadistic and petty at the best of times, I don't see how they are angsty.

I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.

 Kelligula wrote:
I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.

Well their sadism feeds Slaanesh, so Slaanesh probably allows them to scoot about killing and causing suffering, kinda like a bigger picture, ends justifies the means.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Kelligula wrote:
I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.

Well their sadism feeds Slaanesh, so Slaanesh probably allows them to scoot about killing and causing suffering, kinda like a bigger picture, ends justifies the means.

No, that's just what the Drukhari tells themselves to justify continuing their behavior from before the fall. The Craftworlders are pretty much the same way, keeping the aspect of pre-Fall Eldar culture they like and justifying it by completely removing the aspect of it that they don't.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Kelligula wrote:
I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.

Well their sadism feeds Slaanesh, so Slaanesh probably allows them to scoot about killing and causing suffering, kinda like a bigger picture, ends justifies the means.

Its still kind of silly though.
I get that they were trying to go for a tragic villain sort of thing, where the Eldar do the depraved gak they do because they have to, but the fact they enjoy it ruins that tragic aspect a little.

It would have been more better overall if they were just donkey-caves who are still partying like it was before the Fall.

I really like that the Haemonculi are utterly, utterly unrepentant. The eldest of their number are essentially the architects of the fall. They're the living embodiment of the excess of the old Eldar.

And they just don't care. They still wield vast power, and can still do pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want.

Best bit is, I'm not even sure one can say they're actually insane. They seem fully aware of what they're doing. And just don't give a fig. Them over everything else.

Yes, and that unrepentant part is what makes them great.
However, once your try to add a tragic element to them, it just comes across as a trite attempt at drama
Just imagine a mad scientist who just skinned some guy, covered a wrack with said skin, then ordered the wrack to kick the guy in the nuts repeatedly all whilst saying "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself!", and then at the end of it go "oh, woe is me how I must do these things, for reasons!"

That's what that tragic aspect of DE fluff feels like to me. Its dumb.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Kelligula wrote:
I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.

Well their sadism feeds Slaanesh, so Slaanesh probably allows them to scoot about killing and causing suffering, kinda like a bigger picture, ends justifies the means.

Its still kind of silly though.
I get that they were trying to go for a tragic villain sort of thing, where the Eldar do the depraved gak they do because they have to, but the fact they enjoy it ruins that tragic aspect a little.

It would have been more better overall if they were just donkey-caves who are still partying like it was before the Fall.

In a universe where the colour red makes you go faster then its quite sensible lol