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I think the issue is that GW haven't fixed what they broke in 3rd edition. And having to introduce 'Avenger' catapults compounds the problem.

Why not just make the standard catapult

24" Range, S4, AP-1*, Assault 2

*maybe AP-1, dispensing with pseudo-rending for all shuriken weapon (cannon gets AP-2), otherwise AP0 and keeping pseudo-rending.

Then Dire Avengers get an ability where they get to fire an extra shot (or fire twice!) within half range (just bake it into their current aspect rule)

This all comes back to my opinion that aspects are not portrayed as effective as they should be.

A primaris is physically like 2 marines - an aspect warrior should be double skill\attack\output a guardian.

There are imo only 2 aspect units that come close to that - dragons and reapers.

Eldar will be out strengthed and out numbered every time. Super specialist aspect units need to be 2-3x the power suggested by their unit size. They don't have the resilience to survive long enough to generate that power over a few turns.

They need to be able to dispatch their target with overwhelming force quickly before they crumble.

Ergo, a dire avenger needs to output twice the damage of a similarly sized guardian unit. Otherwise they're pretty pointless

I think for a start, all Aspects should be on a 3+ save, and have 2 attacks base.

Shuriken Catapult standardised as above.

Then you modify for their Aspect training, especially for the 'original six' aspects, e.g.
Scorpions get +1S (chainsword is made the same as the Imperial one)
Banshees get +1Mv, +1A
Dire Avengers - fire twice within 1/2 range, or if they stood still (Fast Shot!)
Hawks are pretty unique already, not sure where to go with them currently
Dragons are ok with their big target bustin'
Reapers are ok

Exarchs as they currently are get renamed "Aspect Shrine Janitor"; having to clean all the poop gives them an extra wound, and they know where all the special equipment is.

Phoenix Lords statline are renamed {Aspect Warrior} Exarch, equipment is chosen from the shrine Exarch weapons they have; get their Aspect/Janitor rules plus a unique Exarch rule depending on aspect.

Phoenix Lords are introduced with a basic statline of

Mv7, WS2+, BS2+, S5, T5, W7, A5, Ld9, 2+

Each get modified as per their current differences (better stat here or there, their special rules etc.) Asurmen Ld10.

I agree conceptually although I'm sure there's nitpicking over what exact rules each unit would use.

Phoenix lords should definitely be eldar daemon princes though.

For this thread though bottom line is that the catapult should be better and avengers should be better than guardians

Hellebore wrote:
I agree conceptually although I'm sure there's nitpicking over what exact rules each unit would use.

Phoenix lords should definitely be eldar daemon princes though.

For this thread though bottom line is that the catapult should be better and avengers should be better than guardians

Agreed on both parts.

Pheonix lords are truly iconic eldar units and models at this point, right alongside the avatar. I have no doubt when they're updating (for my great grand children to enjoy) they'll get some good treatment.

As for dire avengers, I adore the models and own a fair amount. Having a squad storm out of a wave serpent scything troops down is a real nice memory, also with bladestorm

I'd love to see any Dire Avenger special rule highlight their adaptability.

With Hawks, I could see LasBlasters becomming A3 with Hawks being allowed to fire them one extra time - especially if A4 Lasblasters on Guardians would be too much withiout a price hike (debateable). As for an actual change, I really miss their grenades. It made them a toolbox that really needs to get close to use their kit to the fullest. It's why I kinda wish LasBlasters were still RF2 instead of A4 - so Hawks can either harass at range or close in and do "real" damage.

I wish there were multiple tiers of Exarch, but that'll never happened. Maybe the in-squad one is "Just got Lost on the Path last week", whereas the HQ one is "BAMF".

If we had an HQ Exarch, he'd contend with the Autarch for a slot. Not that that's impossible - SM have Captains, Chapter Masters, Chaplains, Tech Marines, and more in the "Leader/Beatstick" role (to varying degrees).

The Autarch should have better support abilities - like their current reroll-1s bubble and their CP regen. So that works. The Exarch could have a reroll-1s bubble, but it should only impact his Aspect - and no CP regen. You could go even further and say no Warlord Trait (or Warlord Trait affects only <Aspect&gt.

As for kit, Autarchs should still have baseline Aspect gear from most Shrines as options - power/chain swords, ASCs, Fusion Guns, etc. The Exarch should start with baseline Aspect gear of his shrine, plus a host of options that align - so everything the current Exarch has, but you could add additional fitting options (maybe a Reaper Exarch takes a Scatter Laser or Brightlance, but you won't see him with a Scorpion Claw).

As for statlines, I wouldn't mind the Autarch and Farseer (among others) go to a WS/BS 3+ - but that won't happen. The Exarch would certainly be WS/BS 2+, Sv 3+ with the same rules/stat buffs as their Aspects, but otherwise the current Autarch statline with +1A (or give Autarchs -1A).

 Daba wrote:
I think for a start, all Aspects should be on a 3+ save, and have 2 attacks base.

Shuriken Catapult standardised as above.

Then you modify for their Aspect training, especially for the 'original six' aspects, e.g.
Scorpions get +1S (chainsword is made the same as the Imperial one)
Banshees get +1Mv, +1A
Dire Avengers - fire twice within 1/2 range, or if they stood still (Fast Shot!)
Hawks are pretty unique already, not sure where to go with them currently
Dragons are ok with their big target bustin'
Reapers are ok

Exarchs as they currently are get renamed "Aspect Shrine Janitor"; having to clean all the poop gives them an extra wound, and they know where all the special equipment is.

Phoenix Lords statline are renamed {Aspect Warrior} Exarch, equipment is chosen from the shrine Exarch weapons they have; get their Aspect/Janitor rules plus a unique Exarch rule depending on aspect.

Phoenix Lords are introduced with a basic statline of

Mv7, WS2+, BS2+, S5, T5, W7, A5, Ld9, 2+

Each get modified as per their current differences (better stat here or there, their special rules etc.) Asurmen Ld10.

The fact Aspects have different saves is a good thing. However, some need to be tweaked I do agree. Scorpions for example need regular Infiltrate back instead of the Deep Strike they have now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daba wrote:
I think for a start, all Aspects should be on a 3+ save, and have 2 attacks base.

Shuriken Catapult standardised as above.

Then you modify for their Aspect training, especially for the 'original six' aspects, e.g.
Scorpions get +1S (chainsword is made the same as the Imperial one)
Banshees get +1Mv, +1A
Dire Avengers - fire twice within 1/2 range, or if they stood still (Fast Shot!)
Hawks are pretty unique already, not sure where to go with them currently
Dragons are ok with their big target bustin'
Reapers are ok

Exarchs as they currently are get renamed "Aspect Shrine Janitor"; having to clean all the poop gives them an extra wound, and they know where all the special equipment is.

Phoenix Lords statline are renamed {Aspect Warrior} Exarch, equipment is chosen from the shrine Exarch weapons they have; get their Aspect/Janitor rules plus a unique Exarch rule depending on aspect.

Phoenix Lords are introduced with a basic statline of

Mv7, WS2+, BS2+, S5, T5, W7, A5, Ld9, 2+

Each get modified as per their current differences (better stat here or there, their special rules etc.) Asurmen Ld10.

The fact Aspects have different saves is a good thing. However, some need to be tweaked I do agree. Scorpions for example need regular Infiltrate back instead of the Deep Strike they have now.

Absolutely.
Scorpions should be ASM who infiltrate instead of jumping around with a rocket strapped to their backs. Now, they're just ASM with much less movement but much cheaper.

I disagree on the Assault Marine comparison because of the Jump Packs being auto upgrades. Infiltration was a niche of it's own right for any edition, and Eldar getting use of both Rangers (who really should just have an additional Scout move but I'm open to them having both rules) and Scorpions to do that is a cool thing.

Scorpions are kind of weird this edition. Neither scorpions nor banshees really kill things very well. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Banshees serve a niche by shutting down overwatch and being fast enough to to start getting into combat on turn 2 (turn 1 with psychic support). They're "tacklers."

Scorpions are theoretically meant to be the deepstriking variant of a melee "tackler" that comes in from weird angles instead of charging up the middle like banshees, but a 9" charge with limited options for making the charge more reliable makes scorpions a medium-cost-low-benefit unit. You're just gambling on a 9" charge in hopes of tying something up for a turn with a unit that has roughly the melee abilities of an assault marine squad.

So my crazy, probably inadvisable suggestions for scorpions revolve around making them better at specializing as ambushers. Either...

A.) Let them subtract the turn number from their deepstrike distance (so they'd deepstrike more than 7" away on turn 2 or more than 6" away on turn 3), or...

B.) Only let them arrive within 7" of a table edge, but let them arrive closer to enemy units than usual. Letting them get as close as they want is probably too much, but making let them arrive more than 6" away?

Option A makes them more likely to ambush things anywhere on the table, but you're rewarded for holding off an extra turn before showing up. Option B forces them to sneak on from outside of the battle field (sort of like outflanking back in the day), but it makes life scary for enemy units castled up near the rear. So those russes or devastators or what have you have to consider deploying farther forward or holding back rear screening units to avoid being tackled.

Or, for a really weird option, give them something like the pre-5th edition mandrake deployment where you basically deployed a few blips and could then deploy the squad next to said blip before reserves would be forced to arrive. If an enemy unit gets within X" of one of the blips, you could either deploy the unit immediately (yep, that was them!), or you could remove the blip (nope, false readings). The intended result of this one is that it keeps your scorpions safe from shooting as they move up the table, and can then potentially get closer than 9" to charge something in the midfield. It makes them countercharging midfielders in contrast to the deployment-zone-assaulting banshees.

As I continue to think on how to evolve eldar weaponry in the same way the 'I can't believe we've stagnated' imperium keeps 'discovering new weapons I'm thinking something like this:

Shuriken pistol 12" Pistol 2 S4 D1 AP0 6s to wound -1 AP
Shuriken catapult 18" Assault 2 S4 D1 AP0 6s to wound -1 AP
Shuriken cannon 30" Assault 4 S5 D1 AP-1 6s to wound -2 AP
Shrieker ammo 30" Assault 1 S5 D1 AP-2 Always wounds on a 2+

Each time an INFANTRY model is slain by an attack made
with this weapon, its unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If any
models in a unit are slain by this weapon, subtract 2 from that
unit's Leadership characteristic until the end of the turn.


Shuriken blaster 12" Assault 3 S4 D1 AP0 6s to wound -1 AP
Shuriken arbalest 24" Rapid fire 1 S5 D1 AP -1

As for scorpions and banshees, I tend to look at what they are supposed to do:

Banshees - paralyse the enemy and carve them up with potent power weapons - take on smaller numbers of resilient foes

scorpions - ambush the enemy and go through them like a woodchipper - take on outnumbering odds of light troops

To represent these they need something like:

Banshees: Masks +1 to hit on charge (targets can't defend themselves - rerolls 1s to hit if at 2+ to hit already), enemy can't overwatch
2A

Scorpions:
Always count as charging when in cover, S4, A2, Chainswords (+1A for a total of 3 base attacks), 6s to wound are -1AP (eldar chainswords are basically spinning shuriken bludgeons). +1 to hit inside cover

If scorpions choose to charge someone in cover, they gain +3" to their charge (this gives a situational bonus to them during deepstrike).

You could allow Scorpions to arrive T1, and within 9", but not be allowed to Charge, Fight, or Shoot that turn if they do so.

This would represent Infiltrate. They get in position more readily, but don't rocket into combat like "actual" deepstrikers.

@ Hellebore: I like the Pistol 2 idea, but if we are going to keep the 6s to wound give an AP bonus, just keep it Ap-3 as now.
But personally, I think all Shuriken weapon should be AP-1 and have lower Str, but more shots.

Catapults would be ideal (per fluff) as 18" S3 RF2 AP1
You'd ger 2 shots at 18", which currently Gaurdians don't get, but at 9" you'd get FOUR shots, albeit at a lower Str, but reliable AP.
With Battle Focus, Guardians would be able to Advance and still fire their Catapults with no penalty.

So they'd have better range, but still be more deadly up close.

Dire Avengers with a 24" S3 RF2 AP-1 catapult would be even better, since they would get double shots at 12'

Shuriken cannon should be 24" S5 RF3 AP-1
Pistols can be 12" S3 Pistol 2 AP-1

I know Shuriken weapons have been Assault weapons for several editions and they 100% made sense in those editions, but with the way RF works in 8E, combined with Battle Focus, I feel that Shuriken are far better represented as RF weapons, not Assault.
They also should not have the same Str as a Bolter, so trade 1 point of Str for more shots at close range

Bharring wrote:
You could allow Scorpions to arrive T1, and within 9", but not be allowed to Charge, Fight, or Shoot that turn if they do so.

This would represent Infiltrate. They get in position more readily, but don't rocket into combat like "actual" deepstrikers.

I agree mostly, they should have their "Master of Stealth" ability reworded to function just like Space Marine Scouts or Nurglings: During Deployment they can be set up anywhere outside 9" of any enemy unit.
I would leave it at that, and not restrict their ability to shoot/assault. There are other units that can deploy like this and they don't get restricted and melee is hardly OP in this or any other recent edition of 40k. A 9" charge is still far from a guarantee and Screens exist

-

I was basically starting with bolt weapons and giving up 6" for other abilities.

S3 with more shots is interesting and a big departure from history (shuriken have been s4 as long as bolters have).

I'm just thinking about how skyrunners would work - a squad of 6 with cannons is putting out 36 shots at 12".... After moving 16

Hellebore wrote:
I was basically starting with bolt weapons and giving up 6" for other abilities.

S3 with more shots is interesting and a big departure from history (shuriken have been s4 as long as bolters have).

I'm just thinking about how skyrunners would work - a squad of 6 with cannons is putting out 36 shots at 12".... After moving 16

It would be a lot of shots, yes. But that is why I'd lower the Str. At S5, you are no longer wounding T3 on 2s and light vehicles with T5/6 are harder to wound. And by being RF, you only get those numbers by being close, which is something Windriders do not like doing, but can work with synergy from other units (as is the Eldar way)

And while I get that Shurikens have been S4 for as long a bolters, that just never made sense to me.
How does a molecule thin razor disc have the same "punch" as a .75mm caliber, rocket propelled explosive round?

Just based on what they are in the fluff, those 2 weapons should not have the same kinetic force. The mass difference alone makes the physics wonky.
But by lowing the Str to 3, it gives us some additional design space to add more shots to not only compensate game-wise, but also feel more like the sheer volume of discs spat out per volley.

-

Shuriken catapults were in effect gravitic (rather than magnetic) railguns.

The wargear description says a single shuriken can penetrate several inches of plasteel armour.

A single molecule disk (which is a meme the later writers put in from 3rd edition, compared to the superior 2nd edition description) doesn't have the punch of a .75cal round, or even a normal round. But in the same 'timespace' it has fired enough rounds that it's put the same amount of mass (or more) than the 0.75cal, optimised to slice through armour.

It's basically a cross between a rail gun and a sand blaster. The originator fired stacked shuriken that were mono molecular edged but not thick.

Molecular thin wire is s6 or higher in death spinners and it's not being fired under gravitic acceleration (shadow Weavers drift down in their target....).

The modern description is effectively a death spinner railgun that fires separate discs rather then long threads.

Those discs would leave monomolecular tunnels through their target like a high energy particle through an astronaut's skull.

The ammo looks to be about a foot long 300mm. If the discs were a 10th of a mm thick (not mono, but still thin) there'd be 3000 rounds in the stick.

I wonder how you'd go about removing a molecule thick disc embedded half way through a human body...

Surviving a shuriken strike might be worse than just dying from it....

Having said all that, I do like the visual of lots of shots coming from a unit the way you described.

I don't think the cannon needs to be s6 either - it wasn't before 3rd.

I think they need to differentiate the heavy weapons anyway. Too many s6.

Cannons were range 40" s5 -3 dam d4 2 sustained fire

Multi lasers were 60" s6 -1 dam1 6shots (a huge deal as it couldn't jam and maximised it's number of hits)

 Galef wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I was basically starting with bolt weapons and giving up 6" for other abilities.

S3 with more shots is interesting and a big departure from history (shuriken have been s4 as long as bolters have).

I'm just thinking about how skyrunners would work - a squad of 6 with cannons is putting out 36 shots at 12".... After moving 16

It would be a lot of shots, yes. But that is why I'd lower the Str. At S5, you are no longer wounding T3 on 2s and light vehicles with T5/6 are harder to wound. And by being RF, you only get those numbers by being close, which is something Windriders do not like doing, but can work with synergy from other units (as is the Eldar way)

And while I get that Shurikens have been S4 for as long a bolters, that just never made sense to me.
How does a molecule thin razor disc have the same "punch" as a .75mm caliber, rocket propelled explosive round?

Just based on what they are in the fluff, those 2 weapons should not have the same kinetic force. The mass difference alone makes the physics wonky.
But by lowing the Str to 3, it gives us some additional design space to add more shots to not only compensate game-wise, but also feel more like the sheer volume of discs spat out per volley.

-

It is not so much that a shuriken has more mass or energy than the bolter round, but that its mass/energy has a far higher sectional density for cutting/penetrating.

Just imagine I hit you with a 1kg iron ball as fast as I could throw it.
Then I hit you with a .1kg iron needle as fast as I could throw it.

Which would pierce you better? The needle would. It is lighter but I could throw it faster and all the energy of the impact is concentrated in a tiny area. So the force per square/meter would be vastly higher than if you were hit with a heavy slow round object.

A shuriken catapult should be pretty brutal to be hit with. If anything they should make them have -1 or -2 AP and less shots. So whatever they hit gets shredded. Then Dire avengers get some special ability like blade storm or whatever.

warpedpig wrote:
It is not so much that a shuriken has more mass or energy than the bolter round, but that its mass/energy has a far higher sectional density for cutting/penetrating.

Just imagine I hit you with a 1kg iron ball as fast as I could throw it.
Then I hit you with a .1kg iron needle as fast as I could throw it.

Which would pierce you better? The needle would. It is lighter but I could throw it faster and all the energy of the impact is concentrated in a tiny area. So the force per square/meter would be vastly higher than if you were hit with a heavy slow round object.

A shuriken catapult should be pretty brutal to be hit with. If anything they should make them have -1 or -2 AP and less shots. So whatever they hit gets shredded. Then Dire avengers get some special ability like blade storm or whatever.

The needle might be more likely to pierce through skin, but he iron ball would be more likely to kill. the greater mass holds the energy imparted into it better than a smaller one, and while the needle puts more energy into a smaller point if it doesn't hit anything vital than that doesn't necessarily result in an important wound, where as the iron ball can break bones as long as it's not a glancing hit. It's the same reason an Arquebus is actually more likely to kill you than a modern 22 pistol: The 22 might be more accurate and have more pinning thanks to shaped bullets, but the arquebus is a bigger caliber and thus more stopping power (which is what's actually going to kill a person).

In that sense, Galef has the right idea, although I'd argue RF2 18" for the catapult might be over kill.

No. We don’t shoot huge balls at each other. We shoot high velocity small caliber pointed bullets. Speed is power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention the bullet destabilizes and begins to yaw on impact and creates a shockwave of very destructive power that travels through the target. Just look at ballistics test

The kinetic energy is vastly increased by velocity (Ek=1/2m*v²). But an increase in size causes bigger damage channels. That is why there are hollow point rounds and other ammunition that deform on impact. But that is at the cost of penetration.

I suppose that Shurikens would rapidly loose energy on impact and spin off wildly leading to an increased chance of hitting something vital.

Remember though that it isn't one shuriken you're comparing against, but a lot fired out in a small timeframe.

Think of the energy of the Shuriken Catapult more like a shotgun, with the energy spread over a number projectiles hitting in a small timeframe.

Or even, think about it in reverse and the SC is a rifle firing lots of bullets compared with a single shotgun shot.

The trouble is a Shuriken is absolutely not gonna be accurate over long range. It’s not aerodynamic as much as a bullet. But this lack of stability would make it perfect for causing crazy wound channels on impact. If the Shuriken catapult is 12” range then it should have some serious power. Like -1 or -2 AP and assault 2.

Why not giving it the shotgun treatment?

warpedpig wrote:
The trouble is a Shuriken is absolutely not gonna be accurate over long range. It’s not aerodynamic as much as a bullet. But this lack of stability would make it perfect for causing crazy wound channels on impact. If the Shuriken catapult is 12” range then it should have some serious power. Like -1 or -2 AP and assault 2.

Depends on how fast it's going (the muzzle velocity). If the catapult mechanism can launch it fast enough, it will outrange a slower velocity weapon even with the lack of ballistics.

Also, this is really more of the Death Spinner's job (the whole point of the razor floss it fires is it messes people up internally really easily). Under 2nd edition, you could roll your initiative to try and dodge it, and then roll your armour save, but if you failed both you just died if you weren't a vehicle, no matter if you were a Guardsman, Hive Tyrant or Abaddon the Despoiler. It also had the heavy flamer template.

Games workshop. Please read this and make Eldar not suck. Making Eldar resort to stupid lists like massive flyer spam is just stupid. Our infantry are garbage.

warpedpig wrote:
Games workshop. Please read this and make Eldar not suck. Making Eldar resort to stupid lists like massive flyer spam is just stupid. Our infantry are garbage.

By what measure does Eldar Infantry units suck? All your Troops and Dark Reapers have topped competitive events as Ulthwe and/or Alaitoc, that's excluding the success Wraithguard had as a result of the original Ynnari rules.

Banshees suck. Scorpions suck. Guardians suck. Dire avengers suck. They all melt. They all require tons of CP and buffs to do anything. Meanwhile a regular tactical squad can destroy them with bolters the next turn. They just have no staying power. They melt.

The regular Tac squad also costs alot more.

You're playing Craftworlds, right? Not Deathguard? I think we're talking about different factions if you want the units you mentioned to have staying power. Some of their power being locked away inside Stratagems is fine by me, allowing them to get more staying power through Stratagems is great Stratagem design in my book. Dire Avengers have had GT success in the last 6 months, Guardians in the last 12 at least, Tactical Squads have not. Marines also just got the mother of all buffs, compare yourself to CSM, SW, DA or BA instead. You don't get to whine just because you don't have the best infantry in the game. Banshees and Scorpions do suck, it's a shame, I hope that Phoenix Awakening helps them become better for casual play at least, competitive is going to be a Marine game going forwards.