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Im going to steal all those ideas for my house rules, thanks.

Standard cats should be 18" range and avengers should be 24". Then they would basically be fine. Catapult range being reduced to 12" in 3rd edition was such a terrible decision and it's plagued them ever since.

Orbei wrote:
Standard cats should be 18" range and avengers should be 24". Then they would basically be fine. Catapult range being reduced to 12" in 3rd edition was such a terrible decision and it's plagued them ever since.

I'd only be ok with that if the were RapidFire. RF1 if we keep Str4, or RF2 if we drop to Str3.
It would seem weird to not be assault, but it still works with Battle Focus

Actually, 18" RF2 Str3 Ap-1 Shuricats (24" for Avengers) would be pretty cool. Would allow them to get 2 shots at 18 or 4 shots at 9".
But to balance those extra shots, we need Str3. It actually never made sense to me that molecule thick razor discs have the same punching power as explosive rocket propelled shells (bolters)

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The edge is a molecule thick. Not the entire disc

warpedpig wrote:
The edge is a molecule thick. Not the entire disc

No, it's the whole disc. The ammunition is literally a solid cylinder of whatever they make them out of and the gun uses gravity manipulation to shear off molocule thin slices and launch them at the target, it wouldn't work if those shurikan rounds weren't a constant thickness.


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warpedpig wrote:
So the only positive thing I really read about the guardians and shuriken catapults was

You need to use multiple CP. You need psychic power. You need strategems. And even then you don't do that impressive of damage. And the next turn they all get totally destroyed by the return fire or charge. One trick pony that isn't even that great. What a waste.

Ruling - Shuriken Catapults are Garbage.

If they had 24" range they would be pretty solid. That's all it would take. In this game at 12 or even 18 inches youre only gonna get 1 round of shooting off before the enemy returns fire or charges your weak guardians and utterly rapes them.

Guardians suck. You have to spend BOATLOADS of CP and spells to make them worth a gak.

It's almost like you don't know how the army works. The entire codex is a collection of mostly terrible and mediocre units with a few good and a couple really strong choices backed up by some of the most powerful stratagems and psychic powers in the game. Yes, they look aweful at first glance but get 40 Guardians deep striking in, one unit can be hitting on 3's rerolling, the other unit can be hitting on 2's (re-rolling 1's with a nearby autarch) with both of them re-rolling all failed wounds against a single target which can also be at -1 to it's save. At that point anything short of a Knight is in trouble.

 Galef wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:

 Galef wrote:
They're Guardian DEFENDERS, not Attackers

Okay, I absolutely agree – but here's the thing. You can't really say "Guardian Defenders are fine if you deep strike them right next to an enemy unit", and also say "they're short range because they're not meant to be aggressive". Those two concepts are diametrically opposed.

Valid point. Although that's a difference between their fluff and in-game use, which when you play this game long enough, you just kinda get used to those 2 not matching most of the time.
(...)
The opposite can be said of Marines post-Bolter Discipline. Marines are meant to be shock troops that get close and break the enemy. But their mediocre durability combined with getting double shots when stationary makes them want to be a gunline unit (despite not begin great at that either)

Yes, but I'd rather fix units to match their role and effectiveness in the fluff.

For example, Bolter Discipline gives Marines the ability to fire twice at long range if they stand still. I dislike this because it:

Rewards standing still at long range, which is the opposite of what Marines should do

Rewards standing still at long range, which is the opposite of what Rapid Fire weapons should do

Rewards standing still at long range, which is the opposite of an interesting game

Does not also improve firing at short range, which does not encourage what Marines should do

That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't make Marines better at getting in close.

For example, Bolter Discipline could cause Marines to fire an additional shot at the same target when they're within half range, meaning a basic boltgun fires 3 shots per model within 12". That's a clear incentive to move in and shoot.

RevlidRas wrote:

For example, Bolter Discipline could cause Marines to fire an additional shot at the same target when they're within half range, meaning a basic boltgun fires 3 shots per model within 12". That's a clear incentive to move in and shoot.

yeah that's basically what I suggested to GW to make the Bolter Discipline into when they asked for feedback. It should have been an extra shot if stationary or at half range in addition to double shots at half. So 2 shots if stationary outside 12" or 3 shots within 12". Still rewards being stationary, but you always get more shots for being closer.

For Shuricats to match their fluff, they really need more shots at lower strength.

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 Galef wrote:
yeah that's basically what I suggested to GW to make the Bolter Discipline into when they asked for feedback. It should have been an extra shot if stationary or at half range in addition to double shots at half. So 2 shots if stationary outside 12" or 3 shots within 12". Still rewards being stationary, but you always get more shots for being closer.

For Shuricats to match their fluff, they really need more shots at lower strength.

Pretty much!

So if you want Guardian Defenders to be... well, Defenders, units who hang out near a powerful weapons platform and protect them from attackers, what do you need? Well, you need to:

Make Guardians themselves ineffective at long range, as they're not "meant" to be the long-range threat of their unit.

Discourage Guardians from actively venturing into their effective range, as they're not "meant" to seek out fights, but use their guns as a defensive weapon.

Encourage the enemy to attack the Guardians within their effective range, instead of sniping them at a distance.

Encourage Guardians to fight and run rather than just running, because they're described as making a "fighting retreat".

Therefore, the Heavy Weapon Platforms need to be very powerful at long range, to encourage the enemy to shut them down and to encourage you to keep them far off; a glorified Heavy Weapons Team isn't going to cut it. They also need to be considerably more powerful if they don't move, to discourage you from deliberately moving into shuriken range and just eating the -1 to hit penalty on the HWP. Guardians also need to be harder to kill at range than up close, to encourage the enemy to move into their effective attack range. So let's take a crack at that:

Shuriken Catapult: Range 12", Assault 2, Strength 3, AP 0, Abilities: Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -3 instead of 0.

Crewed Weapon: A Heavy Weapon Platform cannot fire its ranged weapon. Instead, one Guardian from the same unit that is within 3" can operate the platform, shooting the ranged weapon as though it was its own. A Guardian that operates a Heavy Weapon Platform cannot shoot any other weapons that phase.

Warriors of Last Resort: If this unit remains stationary or moves under half speed in its Movement phase (i.e. it moves a distance in inches less than half of its current Move characteristic), it can shoot twice in the following Shooting phase, and until the start of your next turn it successfully hits on a roll of 5 or 6 when firing Overwatch, instead of only 6. A unit that arrives as reinforcements is considered to have moved its full Move distance.

Bubble Shield: A unit that includes one or more Heavy Weapon Platforms has a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks made by models that are more than 12" away.

And hell, let's add:

Shuriken's Wail (1 CP)
Those who don the mask of the Guardian are oft-consumed by the incomparable thrill and exhilarating stakes of battle, entering a trance of exquisite warfare.
Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase. Choose a GUARDIAN DEFENDER unit from your army that is within 1" of an enemy unit. In this phase, models in that unit can fire their shuriken catapults as if they had the Pistol 2 Type.

Nth-Dimensional Alert (2 CP)
The Craftsworlds of the Eldar are proofed against extramaterial incursions, and Guardian Defenders are equipped with precise spatial dowsing rods to detect and repel such unwelcome guests.
Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within 12" of one of your GUARDIAN DEFENDER units. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it were the Shooting phase, but you must subtract 1 from all the resulting hit rolls.

Then drop Guardian Defenders down to 7 points each. Or just eliminate the base cost of the Heavy Weapon Platform, either works.

Now a unit of 10 Guardians with an Aeldari Missile Launcher costs about twice as much as a unit of 10 Infantry with a Missile Launcher, but without considering orders it massively outperforms them (4x Marine casualties) at extreme range (36-48") if it doesn't move, somewhat outperforms them (1.5x Marine casualties) at mid-range (18-24") if it doesn't move, and leaves them utterly in the dirt (6x Marine casualties) at short range (12"). Except if it actually moves, at which point its effectiveness drops by more than half, to below (0.75x) the regular Infantry squad at mid-range and barely above them at extreme range.

Now, this might be too powerful, but the end result is pretty clear - Guardians can't shoot at long range except for their weapons platforms, and they shoot much better when they don't move. Therefore, don't move them and instead rely on their weapons platforms. Guardians are tougher to kill at long range, and their long-range guns are powerful, so the enemy would be better off getting in close. And when someone does get in close, Guardians can shred them. The implementation might be too strong - you might want to limit the "firing twice" to the Heavy Weapons Platform, in the style of Grinding Advance, for example - but the intent is clear.

Just give guardian defenders lasguns like older editions. Then the storm guardians get Shuriken catapults.

warpedpig wrote:
Just give guardian defenders lasguns like older editions.

...I mean, at that point aren't they just Guard Infantry? Who trade Orders for having a worse version of Forwards, for the Emperor! active all the time? And don't get special weapons?

What's the point?

I like the idea of making guardian heavy weapon platforms the focus of the unit and giving them corresponding special rules.

However I do think that you'd give them long range weapons while guarding them - to me it doesn't make sense to give them pistols to protect things with.

If you can stop a charge 24" away, then why would you force them to wait until death is breathing down their neck before they can defend themselves?


What I think I would do is actually explore the militia structure of the eldar a little more, and provide a range of guardian unit types.

5 man heavy weapon teams could be purchased as an addon to a troops unit, but not gain the ability to guard an objective.

You could have storm guardians as the offensive guardian units, and they can choose melee, or short range shuriken weapons and special weapons to actually 'storm' the enemy - perhaps also with a standard webway assault option. IMO if they are storming the enemy, they would also have better armour or protection, like ablative wounds (W2 5+ save for example).



Support weapon battery guardians should be in squads of 5 as well, with the remaining 3 troops carrying long range las rifles etc. Also with that anti shooting shield.


There are so many different ways to revamp the eldar, I find it really frustrating that none of the creativity marines get is sent the way of the eldar.

If I was rewriting the eldar army I would do what I've outlined above and:

Make aspects smaller units - 3-6, with insanely good skills and weapons. Elite of the elite.

Make the above guardian milita the core of the army, with dire avengers the special forces spearhead supported by storm guardians.

And the other aspects as specialist insurgent units designed to get in, annihilate whatever their target is, and then escape intact.


The old BFG rules that allowed the eldar to move twice might be useful here - giving all eldar the ability to fallback in the melee phase whether fighting or not.

Dart in and out.

Andy Chambers asked Jervis to make the BFG eldar 'gittish', and imo no truer a representation of the eldar has existed.

Hellebore wrote:
I like the idea of making guardian heavy weapon platforms the focus of the unit and giving them corresponding special rules.

However I do think that you'd give them long range weapons while guarding them - to me it doesn't make sense to give them pistols to protect things with.

If you can stop a charge 24" away, then why would you force them to wait until death is breathing down their neck before they can defend themselves?


What I think I would do is actually explore the militia structure of the eldar a little more, and provide a range of guardian unit types.

5 man heavy weapon teams could be purchased as an addon to a troops unit, but not gain the ability to guard an objective.

You could have storm guardians as the offensive guardian units, and they can choose melee, or short range shuriken weapons and special weapons to actually 'storm' the enemy - perhaps also with a standard webway assault option. IMO if they are storming the enemy, they would also have better armour or protection, like ablative wounds (W2 5+ save for example).



Support weapon battery guardians should be in squads of 5 as well, with the remaining 3 troops carrying long range las rifles etc. Also with that anti shooting shield.


There are so many different ways to revamp the eldar, I find it really frustrating that none of the creativity marines get is sent the way of the eldar.

If I was rewriting the eldar army I would do what I've outlined above and:

Make aspects smaller units - 3-6, with insanely good skills and weapons. Elite of the elite.

Make the above guardian milita the core of the army, with dire avengers the special forces spearhead supported by storm guardians.

And the other aspects as specialist insurgent units designed to get in, annihilate whatever their target is, and then escape intact.


The old BFG rules that allowed the eldar to move twice might be useful here - giving all eldar the ability to fallback in the melee phase whether fighting or not.

Dart in and out.

Andy Chambers asked Jervis to make the BFG eldar 'gittish', and imo no truer a representation of the eldar has existed.

And how much would these hyper elite models cost, pray tell?

Guardians are ok as they rules wise. I have come around from thinking the range is too short. I think it fits fluff weirdly enough. But... but... they need to be 6pts or the platform cost needs to be removed to be comparable to their counterparts in other dexes. I would argue Avenger should be 24" because they are essentially full time aspect warriors so makes sense they'd have much better gear.

As long as IG are 4 and cultists are 5 (with orders and strats available... which you don't have to roll for unlike psychic powers) Guardians being 8pts is laughable...

 Argive wrote:
As long as IG are 4 and cultists are 5 (with orders and strats available... which you don't have to roll for unlike psychic powers) Guardians being 8pts is laughable...

This is very true. One thing I'd be happy for is a decrease in WS to 4+ along with a points reduction. Defenders being 4+/3+ and stormies being 3+/4+ seems more appropriate to me, honestly.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And how much would these hyper elite models cost, pray tell?

... as much is required to reflect their rules? As should be true for all units in the game?

You say like I'm implying they should also be cheap or something?

Eldar are a hyper advanced, future reading, super skilled, dying race that puts populace survival over all else.

If they played like they are described, they'd probably be nothing but armies of war walkers and vypers - lots of heavy weapons with very few eldar actually in danger of being killed.

Orbei wrote:

 Argive wrote:
As long as IG are 4 and cultists are 5 (with orders and strats available... which you don't have to roll for unlike psychic powers) Guardians being 8pts is laughable...

This is very true. One thing I'd be happy for is a decrease in WS to 4+ along with a points reduction. Defenders being 4+/3+ and stormies being 3+/4+ seems more appropriate to me, honestly.

I concur. 3/4 at 6pts sounds right for guardians

Hellebore wrote:
I like the idea of making guardian heavy weapon platforms the focus of the unit and giving them corresponding special rules.

However I do think that you'd give them long range weapons while guarding them - to me it doesn't make sense to give them pistols to protect things with.

If you can stop a charge 24" away, then why would you force them to wait until death is breathing down their neck before they can defend themselves?

Because long range guns are crap for defending themselves. Guardians aren't meant to shoot people, or to get shot in turn - they're a militia of last resort, on the table solely to protect and operate the HWP. So the Craftworlds park them next to the big guns, hand them a monomolecular shotgun with "get out of my face" carved on the barrel, and tell them to blow away anyone who gets close.

(and in my proposal the big guns have forcefields so they're not just blown away at range, but that's another matter)

 Argive wrote:
Guardians are ok as they rules wise. I have come around from thinking the range is too short. I think it fits fluff weirdly enough. But... but... they need to be 6pts or the platform cost needs to be removed to be comparable to their counterparts in other dexes. I would argue Avenger should be 24" because they are essentially full time aspect warriors so makes sense they'd have much better gear.

As long as IG are 4 and cultists are 5 (with orders and strats available... which you don't have to roll for unlike psychic powers) Guardians being 8pts is laughable...

I really don't recomend bringing up Cultists in this exemple. It might be a bit counterproductive to your cause.

Or do you also want to lose all traits?
Access to nearly all stratagems. And get 1 time use instead?
And worse armor?
and just generaly worse stats and morale?

Orbei wrote:
This is very true. One thing I'd be happy for is a decrease in WS to 4+ along with a points reduction. Defenders being 4+/3+ and stormies being 3+/4+ seems more appropriate to me, honestly.

And this would further differentiate Defenders from Stormies, which IMO is needed. Currently the only difference is in their wargear, so they could very well share the same Datasheet.
WS4+ Defenders and BS4+ Stormies gives them more of a "civilian" feel.

-

With such a life span, I think that every eldar would significantly better than guardsmen or maybe even marines at fighting. There are no "civilians".

Martel732 wrote:
With such a life span, I think that every eldar would significantly better than guardsmen or maybe even marines at fighting. There are no "civilians".

While true, I think you could apply the old "if you don't use it, you lose it" adage. Even if a Defender was a melee Aspect Warrior in a previous Path, it isn't using those skills as a Defender (and given that Aspects use a psychological "war-mask" to compartmentalize those skills away from the rest of their psyche, it makes perfect sense).

It would just be one way to do multiple thing:
A) Differentiate Defenders from Stormies
B) Call back to prior editions in which all Guardian-type units hit on 4+ instead of 3+
C) Give further reason to drop the points cost of Defenders to 7ppm

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Martel732 wrote:
With such a life span, I think that every eldar would significantly better than guardsmen or maybe even marines at fighting. There are no "civilians".

Yep - you've got it.

In marine fluff sources they are touted as being equal to you're average eldar in terms of speed and accuracy. Why? Better biology - in both cases.

Clearly though, IG are the fastest because a guy is yelling at them to go faster.

You are what the crunch says you are. Everything else is fanboi fantasizing.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
With such a life span, I think that every eldar would significantly better than guardsmen or maybe even marines at fighting. There are no "civilians".

While true, I think you could apply the old "if you don't use it, you lose it" adage. Even if a Defender was a melee Aspect Warrior in a previous Path, it isn't using those skills as a Defender (and given that Aspects use a psychological "war-mask" to compartmentalize those skills away from the rest of their psyche, it makes perfect sense).

It would just be one way to do multiple thing:
A) Differentiate Defenders from Stormies
B) Call back to prior editions in which all Guardian-type units hit on 4+ instead of 3+
C) Give further reason to drop the points cost of Defenders to 7ppm

-

In all honesty guardians already deserve a price drop compared to a fire warrior. Sure fire warriors hit on 4's but they have a vastly superior weapon and a 4+ save (which is better than +1 to hit IMO) and the melle ability is negligible - pretty much made up for but the fact tau have supporting fire. They should realistically be the same cost OR the guardian should be cheaper.

Guardians should hit on 3's - and stormies are 1 point cheaper so they are differentiated. They can also take specials like fusions.


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Martel732 wrote:
Clearly though, IG are the fastest because a guy is yelling at them to go faster.

You are what the crunch says you are. Everything else is fanboi fantasizing.

Whats funny is if you go to a fantasy setting and talk about a human being faster than an elf....people will be like...what?

Go force the bolter porn authors to play the actual game. Guardsmen are faster than marines with jump packs. You can't make this up.

Eldar should move faster and always count as charging models in CQC.

If an Eldar was an Aspect, now isn't, it's left the path.

If the Eldar couldn't give up the Path, and stop using it's teachings, then it didn't leave the Path. Those who can't become Exarchs - that's what getting Lost on the Path means.

So Eldar who were former Aspects will remember some training, but won't be fully-trained fully-capable Aspect Warriors.

As for weapons, CWE focuses on perfection, not excess. Generally, either the units are hitting hard and doing their things or are completely ineffective. They don't do attrition/standoffs, where you hold your own at range. They don't have the numbers to do it.

CWE will try to either be nearly impossible to touch but can't engage effectively (in a Serpent, out of LOS, etc), or entirely committed and effective. This is part of their focus on perfection. They don't trade shots with other factions. They will remain out of reach, until the moment they're ready to strike. Once they're ready to strike, they hit harder than anyone else. Executed perfectly, there's nothing left to retaliate.

The LasBlaster - and other rifles - are used to do reasonable damage in a reasonable engagement in most circumstances. It's a weapon engineered for versatility. It can do most jobs reasonably. But it's not the perfect tool for the perfect execution of a maneuver.

They don't send Guardians into a pitched battle to trade shots with the enemy. They send them to follow the plans of the Autarchs or the schemes of the Seers. These plans won't expose them to a pitched battle where a rifle is better. They'll use the Guardians in carefully planned ambushes, or desperate close quarters defense of something. Or to leverage tools like a heavy weapons platform. Firing a couple extra incidental rifle shots at something isn't going to help; the Seers or Autarchs have careful plans to handle those targets anyways. But the increased impact at close range often is going to help.

So the Shuriken Catapault is either a sidearm or a shotgun. It's not a standoff weapon. Such a weapon makes much more sense than an actual rifle.

"They don't have the numbers to do it. "

But somehow marines do? Okay...

My ideal:
-Guardians can take LasBlasters (not free)
--LasBlasters go back to RF2 (added benefit - Hawks need to be within 12" for full damage, forcing Aspect hosts to fight closer)
-Guardians can take CCW/Pistol (Catapults cost 1ppm, so it'd be a tradeoff)
-Guardians can take HWP *or* specials (but not both)
-Aeldari Blade gains the same rule as Chainsword (to reduce bloat - they can replace them with Chainswords for free already)

This would simplify the Guardian unit choice, while adding a *lot* of flexibility.


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Martel732 wrote:
"They don't have the numbers to do it. "

But somehow marines do? Okay...

The Marine exists to fight. It's designed to fight. Engineered to fight. Equipped to fight. Trained to fight.

An Eldar Guardian exists to not fight. It's a civilian. It's planned on writing a poem. Or feeding the people. Or studying physics. It has chosen not to take a Path of War. It's fighting because it - and it's Craftworld - has no better option.

So Marines in excess of 0 have the numbers to fight.

I think the Eldar need to take some notes from the Soviet Union about how to fight existential battles.

Just because marines exist to fight doesn't mean they have the numbers to do anything. The royal dutch marines are the most elite force on the planet. What do they amount to?

"Ok, Civie. Here's a shotgun. Go that way. Try not to die."

Guardians on the battlefield generally *are* taking a note from the Red Army and their defense of Stalingrad. They can't equip every Guardian with a walking heavy weapons platform (WarWalker) or top-shelf battletank/APC (Serpent). Guardians aren't given Catapaults because they'd rather have 10 Catapault-slinging doods than 10 WarWalkers or Serpents. They're given Catapaults because that's what they have resources to give them. The ASC is clearly the better weapon. So is the MeltaGun. LasBlaster. But those cost more resources.