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Guardians get a 12” range gun but they are so fragile they probably only get one turn of shooting before a hormagaunt eats their face off or a space marine blows them in half with rapid fire Bolter hits. I’d rather see guardians go back to 2nd edition so they could have a 24” lasgun. Or just increase the range of the Shuriken catapult to 24”. Guardians are so weak.

warpedpig wrote:
Guardians get a 12” range gun but they are so fragile they probably only get one turn of shooting before a hormagaunt eats their face off or a space marine blows them in half with rapid fire Bolter hits. I’d rather see guardians go back to 2nd edition so they could have a 24” lasgun. Or just increase the range of the Shuriken catapult to 24”. Guardians are so weak.

In theory, the idea is that the Guardian Defenders have a powerful, short-ranged weapon because their battlefield role is solely to defend the Heavy Weapons Platform from enemies who get too close. They're a cheap unit with a small threat radius who shred infantry that dare to enter it. In theory.

In practice, that weapon isn't strong enough to stop or deter anything that gets close, and shooting is so supreme this edition that the T3 5+ save elves will be mown down by any anti-infantry that glances its way unless you blow 1CP on Celestial Shield.

Assault is flat-out worse than Rapid Fire for Aeldari with the 8e Battle Focus, and even within its tight range their gun is essentially a bolter with Rending - which in 8e is much less attractive than just plain old AP-1. And the Heavy Weapons Platform doesn't even extend Battle Focus to Heavy weapons, so the only one you can move and fire without penalty (or Advance and fire at all) is the Shuriken Cannon.

It's not a good look.

Blow 2CPs (1 for Webway, 1 for Celestial shield) on a 20-man Guardian squad shooting at a Doomed unit and you will see just how "garbage" Shuriken catapults are.
Twin-cats on Bikes are good too and gives Spears a decent way to weaken a unit before charging (or shoot a whole through a screen before charging a better target)

Shuricats are fine as-is, you just need to know how to use them. The range is fine considering the base 7" move of our Infantry and Battle Focus.
You can't think of Eldar the same way as T'au. And expecting them to have longer range side arms to avoid getting close is a T'au way of thinking
They're Guardian DEFENDERS, not Attackers

Although, personally, I'd like see them with the following profile:
12" Str3 Assault 3 AP-1 (remove the AP-3 on 6s)
Avenger Cats can be 18", Str4 Assault 3 AP-1
Shuricannons 24" Str5 Assault 4 AP-1

I'd make this change to make them "feel" more like a barrage of tiny razor discs, rather than make the change to "improve" them

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CWE should never have gotten WWP. Before that, getting into range was a major balancing factor of CWE infantry.

Bharring wrote:
CWE should never have gotten WWP. Before that, getting into range was a major balancing factor of CWE infantry.

I disagree to a point. All Aeldari use the Webway, even if DE are traditionally the ones with "portable portals". And given how limited the Strat is, it's fine.

Although a better way for CWE and Harlies to access the Webway would be if there was some kind of, IDK, Fortification or something that could be taken to allow units to come in.
Too bad GW doesn't make any valid rules for that awesome Webway Gate they make.

But I do agree about the "balancing factor". Having played Eldar since 4E, I remember always struggling to get enough cost effective long range in the list, especially pre-WK.
Shuriken weapons as a whole have great synergy with other Eldar abilities (high movement, Battle Focus, Doom, etc), so the short range can easily be forgiven, IMO

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I am with Galef, 20 man gardian with 2x shuriken cannons is pretty effeing gross. Even statier if they are ulthwe you can get them hitting on 2's...vs doomed target. It will kill almost anything. at their point value.

 Galef wrote:
Blow 2CPs (1 for Webway, 1 for Celestial shield) on a 20-man Guardian squad shooting at a Doomed unit and you will see just how "garbage" Shuriken catapults are.

Just to do the math on this... setting aside the cost of Celestial Shield, that's 1 CP and 300 points, requiring a successful Psychic test and a use of a special deployment Stratagem.

In exchange, you get 36 shots, hitting on 3s, for 24 hits. Plus 6 shuriken cannon shots, hitting on 3s, for 4 hits.

24 hits, wounding on 4s against MEQ, for 12 wounds. Reroll those failures for 18 total wounds.

4 hits, wounding on 3s against MEQ, for 2.6 wounds. Reroll those failures for 3.4 wounds.

14 wounds at AP-0 gives you 5 wounds.

7 wounds at AP-3 gives you 6 wounds.

Total Wounds against MEQ = 11

Total Wounds against GEQ = 19

That's impressive!

But conversely, two units of 10 Militarum Tempestus Scions with a Tempestor Prime cost 225 points, can Aerial Drop in without costing me CP, and don't require a roll to use their order.

In exchange, I get 80 shots, hitting on 3s, for 53 hits.

53 hits, wounding 5s against MEQ, for 18 wounds.

18 wounds at AP-2 gives you 12 wounds.

Total Wounds against MEQ = 12

Total Wounds against GEQ = 27

So the Tempestus Scions are stronger, 75 points cheaper, don't cost me any CP, are tougher, and don't require a psychic test. I can't help but feel that maybe you're overegging how devastating that Guardian barrage is, relatively speaking?

 Galef wrote:
They're Guardian DEFENDERS, not Attackers

Okay, I absolutely agree – but here's the thing. You can't really say "Guardian Defenders are fine if you deep strike them right next to an enemy unit", and also say "they're short range because they're not meant to be aggressive". Those two concepts are diametrically opposed. Tempestus Scions shine when they drop right next to an enemy unit and blast it to pieces because they're special forces who are meant to... drop right next to an enemy unit and blast it to pieces. Guardian Defenders are meant to be militia who huddle around a heavy weapons platform and make it impossible for the enemy to shut down the long range fire by riddling anyone who comes close with very short range bullets. Even when they're functional, the practice doesn't match the theory.

RevlidRas wrote:

 Galef wrote:
They're Guardian DEFENDERS, not Attackers

Okay, I absolutely agree – but here's the thing. You can't really say "Guardian Defenders are fine if you deep strike them right next to an enemy unit", and also say "they're short range because they're not meant to be aggressive". Those two concepts are diametrically opposed.

Valid point. Although that's a difference between their fluff and in-game use, which when you play this game long enough, you just kinda get used to those 2 not matching most of the time.

So the short range is to match their fluff as defenders, but there are in-game Strats, abilities and powers that can "bend" them to be suited to an aggressive role.
The opposite can be said of Marines post-Bolter Discipline. Marines are meant to be shock troops that get close and break the enemy. But their mediocre durability combined with getting double shots when stationary makes them want to be a gunline unit (despite not begin great at that either)

I'll also add that short range can also help make a unit a low priority on your opponent's radar. So if you have other great unit, short ranged Guardians can be quite the surprise once they, or the enemy gets close.

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Which is why I go with you are what the crunch says you are. If guardians only work X way in the game, what the fluff says about them is only a theory.

Martel732 wrote:
Which is why I go with you are what the crunch says you are. If guardians only work X way in the game, what the fluff says about them is only a theory.

This philosophy is fine unless you start proposing ways to make that crunch more crunchy despite going against the fluff already. Most of my proposals come from the philosophy that the crunch should reflect the fluff as best as possible, while hopefully also being balanced.

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GW has no idea how to make the game play REMOTELY like their own fluff. They do better with non-marine armies, but its still poor. As this thread demonstrates. At least guardians have a non-fluff way to be relevant. Tac marines would kill for that.

RevlidRas wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Blow 2CPs (1 for Webway, 1 for Celestial shield) on a 20-man Guardian squad shooting at a Doomed unit and you will see just how "garbage" Shuriken catapults are.

Just to do the math on this... setting aside the cost of Celestial Shield, that's 1 CP and 300 points, requiring a successful Psychic test and a use of a special deployment Stratagem.

In exchange, you get 36 shots, hitting on 3s, for 24 hits. Plus 6 shuriken cannon shots, hitting on 3s, for 4 hits.

24 hits, wounding on 4s against MEQ, for 12 wounds. Reroll those failures for 18 total wounds.

4 hits, wounding on 3s against MEQ, for 2.6 wounds. Reroll those failures for 3.4 wounds.

14 wounds at AP-0 gives you 5 wounds.

7 wounds at AP-3 gives you 6 wounds.

Total Wounds against MEQ = 11

Total Wounds against GEQ = 19

That's impressive!

But conversely, two units of 10 Militarum Tempestus Scions with a Tempestor Prime cost 225 points, can Aerial Drop in without costing me CP, and don't require a roll to use their order.

In exchange, I get 80 shots, hitting on 3s, for 53 hits.

53 hits, wounding 5s against MEQ, for 18 wounds.

18 wounds at AP-2 gives you 12 wounds.

Total Wounds against MEQ = 12

Total Wounds against GEQ = 27

So the Tempestus Scions are stronger, 75 points cheaper, don't cost me any CP, are tougher, and don't require a psychic test. I can't help but feel that maybe you're overegging how devastating that Guardian barrage is, relatively speaking?

 Galef wrote:
They're Guardian DEFENDERS, not Attackers

Okay, I absolutely agree – but here's the thing. You can't really say "Guardian Defenders are fine if you deep strike them right next to an enemy unit", and also say "they're short range because they're not meant to be aggressive". Those two concepts are diametrically opposed. Tempestus Scions shine when they drop right next to an enemy unit and blast it to pieces because they're special forces who are meant to... drop right next to an enemy unit and blast it to pieces. Guardian Defenders are meant to be militia who huddle around a heavy weapons platform and make it impossible for the enemy to shut down the long range fire by riddling anyone who comes close with very short range bullets. Even when they're functional, the practice doesn't match the theory.

I think you are making some calculations wrong here. Scions weapons can not DS into optimum range. So you're getting half the shots nor do they get the FRFSRF order so really 1/4 the shots. Scions are really good but infantry are so much better there is no point to even bother. Correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

The comparison you should be making is for the cost of those guardians you could get a whole battalion of gaurd practically that puts out 120 shots and gives you 5 CP.

Also doom affects your whole army. You don't need to include it in the calculation.

The plasma guns sure can DS into optimum range.

Martel732 wrote:
The plasma guns sure can DS into optimum range.

Which would put the math above however a lot closer in total points now wouldn't it.

Martel732 wrote:
The plasma guns sure can DS into optimum range.

Yes they can - that's not the math he was using though. They also pay full points for that plasma now and the command squads are limited to 1 per prime (which is basically a 45 point waste). The regular troops can only take 2 plasmas and a pistol now. Still nice because they can deep strike but nothing like it used to be.

Can't 10 still take 4 plasmas?

Martel732 wrote:
Can't 10 still take 4 plasmas?

I believe they can but 2 5 mans actually has more firepower - also generates more CP. Because they can take 2 pisols instead of 1.

Furthermore I'd much rather spend those points on a tempestor prime vehicle thing. gets 24 str 4 shots and 4 autocannon shots hitting on 3s for like 115? Pretty Amazing unit.

Martel732 wrote:
Can't 10 still take 4 plasmas?

per 5 two special weapons.

Shuriken weapons are mechanically just fine.

From a fluff perspective, shuriken catapults maybe make more sense in the context of guardians defending Zone Mortalis style internal passageways within a craftworld or hopping out of a wave serpent to spray stuff at close range. And then there's Ulthwe whose guardians are usually depicted as being competent enough as ambush combatants for the gun to sort of make sense.

That said, having 9 guys baby sitting the one dude who's actually shooting the heavy weapon platform does feel really strange. You end up investing a lot of points and bodies into these short ranged guns that feel at-odds with the long-ranged heavy weapon. I suspect the squad was designed that way to better mirror a guardsman unit (making guardians feel more comparable to guardsmen than, for instance, space marines with their 1 special per 5 guys setup). But it looks and feels a bit awkward.

I'd really like for the minimum squad size of guardian defenders to drop to 5. 5 guys with a platform seems less silly than having 9 short ranged guns crowding around the lone guy with the video game controller. Plus, it would drop the cost of a guardian squad to be comparable to that of a guardsman squad with a heavy weapon team. The ranged offense of the guardians would be slightly higher, but their number of ablative wounds would be lower. Which seems like a good crunch representation of the fluff; eldar are better than you, but there are fewer of them.

All that said, I'm not necessarily opposed to guardians returning to having access to lasblasters either. Lowering the squad size just seems like an elegant improvement for fluff, crunch, and aesthetic.

Wyldhunt makes several great points. Defending Craftworld corridors, setting up ambushes and exiting Serpents makes the short range to the Catapult make sense.
I also really like the idea of 1 platform per 5 models, although I'd keep the min squad size at 10, just allow 2 platforms per unit no matter the unit size. Maybe you get a 3rd if you have 20 Guardians?

Also regarding the range: Have you ever shot one of those foam disc shooters? If you have you will know why Shurikens has short range.

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 Galef wrote:
Wyldhunt makes several great points. Defending Craftworld corridors, setting up ambushes and exiting Serpents makes the short range to the Catapult make sense.
I also really like the idea of 1 platform per 5 models, although I'd keep the min squad size at 10, just allow 2 platforms per unit no matter the unit size. Maybe you get a 3rd if you have 20 Guardians?

Also regarding the range: Have you ever shot one of those foam disc shooters? If you have you will know why Shurikens has short range.

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5 man guardians with a platform would be pretty good. I kinda like that idea. Basically - it makes no sense to include anything but cheap cannons to add to squad durability though. It used to have the rule to ignore movement penalties but for some reason that is gone. If they got that back I think 20 man gardian squads would become quite competitive with double starcannons or EML. With an Avatar supporting them. It's actually the way I like to play eldar. As footdar. It's just not competitive right now.

 Galef wrote:

I also really like the idea of 1 platform per 5 models, although I'd keep the min squad size at 10, just allow 2 platforms per unit no matter the unit size. Maybe you get a 3rd if you have 20 Guardians?

I'd be alright 2 heavy platforms at 10 bodies as well. I kind of like the option of taking 5 man squads to fill out CP-generating troop tax slots, but admittedly that starts to step on the avengers' toes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Wyldhunt makes several great points. Defending Craftworld corridors, setting up ambushes and exiting Serpents makes the short range to the Catapult make sense.
I also really like the idea of 1 platform per 5 models, although I'd keep the min squad size at 10, just allow 2 platforms per unit no matter the unit size. Maybe you get a 3rd if you have 20 Guardians?

Also regarding the range: Have you ever shot one of those foam disc shooters? If you have you will know why Shurikens has short range.

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5 man guardians with a platform would be pretty good. I kinda like that idea. Basically - it makes no sense to include anything but cheap cannons to add to squad durability though. It used to have the rule to ignore movement penalties but for some reason that is gone. If they got that back I think 20 man gardian squads would become quite competitive with double starcannons or EML. With an Avatar supporting them. It's actually the way I like to play eldar. As footdar. It's just not competitive right now.

I kind of feel like 20 man guardian squads work. I field non-shuriken cannon platforms with mine because it's simply what I have modeled. they do okay despite the to-hit penalties; any damage they do is kind of found money. It's the 10 man squads that feel awkward to me. They're too expensive for me to feel good about using them as chaff or CP generators. They have too many points wrapped up in 12" guns for me to feel good about them as a long-ranged heavy weapon squad. But 20 man squads? Those work. Heck, Quicken a blob of the little guys and give them some mild psychic and/or stratagem support and they're kind of awesome.

Glad the 5 man squad idea seems to be well-received! <3

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I also really like the idea of 1 platform per 5 models, although I'd keep the min squad size at 10, just allow 2 platforms per unit no matter the unit size. Maybe you get a 3rd if you have 20 Guardians?

I'd be alright 2 heavy platforms at 10 bodies as well. I kind of like the option of taking 5 man squads to fill out CP-generating troop tax slots, but admittedly that starts to step on the avengers' toes.

I like the idea of cheap 5-man units to fill out CP taxes too. But that's why I wouldn't want it to happen. Avengers would cease to exist at that point, not to mention the cheese-crying Eldar haters would lob at us
I think 2 platforms in min 10-elf units is the right balance. Gives you more weapons per body, but still requires the bodies

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I haven't played as Eldar in a very long time, (2nd/3rd edition) but back then, Guardians came armed with lasguns with 24" range and Dire Avengers were armed with the superior Shuriken Catapult (which IIRC was also 24" range, and had almost the same stats as a storm bolter)

I'm surprised that Guardians don't have an option for a normal troop weapon at longer range. I say bring back the option for a lasgun equivalent. (call it something else if you prefer).

Aash wrote:
I haven't played as Eldar in a very long time, (2nd/3rd edition) but back then, Guardians came armed with lasguns with 24" range and Dire Avengers were armed with the superior Shuriken Catapult (which IIRC was also 24" range, and had almost the same stats as a storm bolter)

I'm surprised that Guardians don't have an option for a normal troop weapon at longer range. I say bring back the option for a lasgun equivalent. (call it something else if you prefer).

Swooping Hawks have Lasblasters, so they are still around. As for longer ranged Troop weapons; Dire Avengers and Rangers are Troops

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 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can't 10 still take 4 plasmas?

I believe they can but 2 5 mans actually has more firepower - also generates more CP. Because they can take 2 pisols instead of 1.

Furthermore I'd much rather spend those points on a tempestor prime vehicle thing. gets 24 str 4 shots and 4 autocannon shots hitting on 3s for like 115? Pretty Amazing unit.

It's about the same firepower. Keep in mind the Sergeant doesn't get a Hotshot, which affects the math in Rapid Fire range and orders efficiency.

So the only positive thing I really read about the guardians and shuriken catapults was

You need to use multiple CP. You need psychic power. You need strategems. And even then you don't do that impressive of damage. And the next turn they all get totally destroyed by the return fire or charge. One trick pony that isn't even that great. What a waste.

Ruling - Shuriken Catapults are Garbage.

If they had 24" range they would be pretty solid. That's all it would take. In this game at 12 or even 18 inches youre only gonna get 1 round of shooting off before the enemy returns fire or charges your weak guardians and utterly destroys
them.

Guardians suck. You have to spend BOATLOADS of CP and spells to make them worth a gak.

Boy, if that pisses you off...wait till you consider...almost all of the Aspect Warriors. Or Storm Guardians...or Support Weapon Platforms...or Wraithknights...or Phoenix Lords...

The Eldar have a reputation as being super competitive and solid, but that ignores the 1/3 to 1/2 of the codex which is more or less garbage (when compared to other armies/stratagems). Thus Eldar players are more or less not allowed to lament how bad units are because of how good a handful of units in the army are.

And almost every single unit in the book is dependent on Psychic buffs to become really effective. There are a few exceptions, and these are what you see in 90% of Eldar related tournament lists.

I have relegated my Guardians to the above conditions: 1) stuck in a building with a platform defending a location... or 2) Deep Striking suicide bomb.

PS: And yes, 8th is more or less entirely predicated on: Stratagems, auras, buffs, and spells...almost nothing operates without them, a fundamental weakness of the game in my opinion.

The whole 'designed to protect craftworld corridors' thing, is a furfy.

Craftworlds are full of large open spaces, not space hulk claustrophobic corridors.


Also, if GW hadn't been pleasuring space marines from every angle imaginable, we'd have just as wide a variety of eldar weapon options and loadouts. How many freaking bolt gun options do marines get now? SOmething for every occasion.

20 years ago, marines had 1 boltgun. Until they were retconned not to.

Ergo, eldar can have a dozen different shuriken weapon options, not just the single worst decision GW has made since they switched from 2nd ed.

in 1st and second ed, the shuriken catapult had the following profile:

24" S 4 ASM -2 Sustained fire 1 dice

It was actually better than a storm bolter (better penetration).



Besides this is the glaringly ridiculous notion that an army that has leaders that can see the future somehow can't see their soldiers being cut down in tissue paper with slingshots - especially when they can make 3+ armour and better guns. You know - a race that actually doesn't want its people to die like they keep saying they don't....



It is trivially easy to apply the 'make a million options' approach GW has done to marines, to eldar. The fluff is no way an impediment to this - it's never stopped them retroactively inventing whole new units, technologies and weapons that have 'always been there' for the Imperium.

Shuriken catapult
12" Assault 3 S4 AP-1

Avenger Catapult
18" Assault 2 S4 AP-1 (Aspect ability 6 to wound is AP-3)

Shuriken launcher
24" Assault 2 S3 Ap-1

Shuriken javelin
30" Assault 1 S5 AP -1D3 (alternative Avenger gun?)

Shuriken Cannon
36" Assault 4 S6 AP-1


Lasblaster
24" Assault 3 S3 AP-

Las-storm
18" Assault 4 S4 AP-

Las beamer
30" Assault 2 S6 Ap-

Corona projector
12" Assault 1D6 S4 Ap-


Like, it's not hard.

There is also the option to have specialist ammunition as well - psychically charged explosive shuriken, Ld draining rounds, neurotoxic rounds (ala shrieker ammo), shuirken penetrators etc.


Eldar units might survive longer if they were able to make fall back moves in the melee phase whether in combat or not. So your guardians could get in, shoot, the run back again.


I can make up eldar guns all day - or any guns for that matter. GW doesn't seem to care if it steals xenos army distinctiveness to make a marine version, so why should we care in reverse?

I actually completely agree. GWs hard on for marine kits is insane given the tiny number of them in the fluff.

Then they turn around and give them crap rules.