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 Da Boss wrote:
I think it would be good to make a list of Space Marine characters who could beat Ghaz.

Spoiler:

Dante - he is 1100 years old! And a total badass.
Mephiston - He is space marine dracula! And conquered the red thirst!
Sanguinor - The avatar of Sanguinious!

Bjorn the Fell Handed - Been alive since the Great Crusade! Actually met the Big E
Logan Grimnir - He is the chapter master of the Wolves, so if Ragnar can do it...
Ragnar Blackmane - as shown here

Marneus Calgar - the dude punched out an Avatar, of course he can take Ghaz. Plus he has been souped up with primaris juice!
Guilliman - Obviously, a Primarch is the most dangerous thing in the setting

Cypher - he has been alive since the Heresy!

Kaldor Draigo - I mean if the guy can slay multiple Greater Daemons, Ghaz should be no problem.

Someone like Helbrecht could probably not beat him in a duel but would definitely win a space batttle against him.

Then of course you have the leader of the Custodes, obviously could take him down too.
After that, I guess most other Chapter Masters and captains would get killed by Ghaz. Pedro Kantor, Lysander, Shrike and so on. Not really tough enough to take Ghaz on alone, they would likely need a small squad of veterans to do it.

And of course Chaos Marines wise, well, most of their heroes could kill Ghaz
Abbadon - Obviously, he has a daemon sword and the talon of Horus!
Kharn - Yeah, he is the chosen of the God of War
Mortarian and Magnus - Daemon Primarch anyone?
Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.

So like you can see that most Space Marines can kill Ghaz. It is therefore logical that lesser warlords can be killed by lesser chapter masters. Ergo, Orks are not really a threat. If the Imperium of Man did not have so much busy work on, it could wipe out the Orks for sure.

Boss, you aren't thinking big enough buddy. One of the (many) arguments here is that Ghaz' cannot stand in the same arena as the Primarchs, you silly dum dum, because they have a spark of the Emperor's divinity within them.

Now unless I'm mistaken, every single Custodes also has some of the Emperor's 'spark' within them . So they'd all obviously flatten him.

Now (again correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm no marine expert) but doesn't every Marine have a part of their Primarch within their very genes? Now if the Primarchs all have this 'spark of divinity' and the Marines all have part of their Primarch's genetic material within them, then obviously it stands to reason that, actually, every single Marine in the 40k setting can, and should, beat Ghaz'.

Phew. Glad we sorted that.

something interesting I just read that Mad Doc Grotsnik posted in another thread is that in a Xenos Biology (an old, rare BL art book) put forward the theory that Ghaz is simply an inevitable Oddboy Leader Class.

Which would be quite interesting if so! Orkz have a Oddboy for anything and everything so it would make sense to have an Oddboy leader gene when Orkz hit a certain critical mass. So not just a "Prime-Ork" but one that was coded into the DNA of the Orkz to push them further into a more organised race with greater technology and societal means to conqueror the galaxy. Like when the Beast sent the Ork ambassador to Terra to discuss terms for surrender and the Snakebite Agri World where they farmed Humans as cattle but the Humans accepted it as it was either that or dying anyway.

That way we dont have to make comparisons to Primarchs and Greater Daemons. Ghaz in his own unique field. And just for clarification sake, Ghaz is the self entitled Prophet of Gork and Mork, he isnt an Avatar. For all we know he is actually extremely psychic or just lucky. Or he could very well be the Prophet. We simply have to take his word for it and anyone who disagrees with him gets headbutted.

I would leave the Prime-Ork / Primarch comparisons at the door, they arent the same beast (pun not intended). Also im pretty sure its stated in one of the 30k books that the Primarchs are Demi-Gods of war. That could be figuratively or literally, but they are all still in a different weight category than any other MORTAL creature in the Galaxy.

What Guilliman represents is what you SHOULD compare Ghaz too, not what Roboute CAN do. Maybe on tabletop Ghaz will hulk smash Girlyman into the shadow realm but the tabletop doesnt accurately represent the lore.

Also stop with comparing him to Chapter Masters A Space Marine is solely a tool to be used by the Imperium, you may have the odd Chapter Master/Supreme Grand Master governing one half of the Galaxy but that isnt the norm for ALL Space Marines. All those prementioned characters have stacks upon stacks of lore, books, codex entries to flesh them up. Ghaz doesnt. Its a null point. Mephiston may very well be the Lord of Death, but Ghaz hasnt had the same scope of background done on him. We know his rough achievements and goals, not his 1 to 1 combat prowess. For all we know Ghaz has done an Angron and flipped a Warhound Titan by the foot. Or he could of throttle an Old Man Russ to death on some forgotten backwater planet years ago but know one would know as Orkz wouldnt even care or know who Russ was or tell everyone in the known galaxy about it.

Its quite pointless comparing the feats of Space Marines, the poster children of the setting, to a Xenos faction leader. Space Marines from as lowly as scout like Naaman to I dunno the 3rd company Captain of the Ironhands, will always have more lore dedicated to them via BL than Orkz ever will get. Its never going to be a fair comparison as Ghaz sadly just isnt as explored as these protagonist characters. We have what, 30 or so pages at BEST detailing Ghaz from Yoof to Warlord, where these Space Marines have in excess of around 200+ from a series of novels.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, largely agreed. A duel wasn't needed - Ghaz, to me, isn't a duellist. He's a very tough, very powerful Ork, but his strength comes from his tactics. A clash of armies would have been so much better.

After all this time defending the duel, eh?

I wasn't defending the narrative necessity of it, no. I was defending the idea that the most popular and oldest Space Wolf character could fight the most popular and oldest Ork character to a mutual kill. Should it have been Ragnar? Should Ghaz be a Prime-Ork by now? In my opinion, no and yes respectively, but that's the hand we were dealt.

An Actual Englishman wrote:We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?).

No, we don't. That's one of the many theories, but we do not have a concrete, or even semi-concrete source of the Emperor's power. Some things suggest he's just a super powerful psyker. Others say he's a DaoT weapon gone rogue. Others say Malcador is actually the true power. For all we know, he very well could have started as a god (though I'm not fond of that myself).

What is pretty much known is that, even if he was or wasn't divine to start with, his influences and power since being interred on the Throne are functionally divine, even if he may not be a true god.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.

And Orks aren't?

Nowhere to the same degree.
An Ork produces a gestalt field with minor belief-based paracausal powers. Sanguinius can fly, despite him knowing it should be impossible for him to do. Every Primarch exudes an aura which compels most nearby beings to kneel or submit to them. Many others boast supernatural effects (Dorn can produce an anti-Warp aura, Sanguinius can fly, Corax can Wraithslip and can literally turn himself into flocks of ravens, Angron used to be able to absorb the pain of others).
I'm not saying they're gods, but they do have godly powers.

Marine players gonna defend a marine Captain beheading the greatest Ork to exist in the current setting

The greatest Ork to exist is the Beast of Beasts, not Ghaz.
Check your bias.

An Actual Englishman wrote:Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.

Is anyone claiming that? The Primarchs are demigodly because they're literally infused with that sweet sweet warp juice - not the Emperor's power.
For what it's worth, I also class Greater Daemons and suchlike as demigods, just for consistency.

Insectum7 wrote:Which are still not the same as a Greater Daemon. Also, Primarchs are very not immortal.

Well, barring Vulkan.
Besides, Daemon Princes aren't *truly* immortal - they can die True Deaths. I think the trade-off is that Primarchs have similar powers to (most) Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons and can maintain a physical form, but can be killed easier, whereas Daemons can just manifest in the Warp after death, but struggle to maintain corporeal form.

Hence, Primarchs are pretty similar to Greater Daemons, but not identical. Regardless, I think, given the paracausal abilities of Primarchs and their warpy origin, I'm happy calling them demigods, even if the Emperor wasn't.

Besides, can we definitely say that Ghaz isn't suffused with the power of Gork and Mork?

I thought it was pretty much confirmed he was suffused with their power? Not that it makes him invulnerable.

Dudeface wrote:Agreed, likewise some people are going vehemently declare that ghaz shouldn't lose a fight to someone who isn't a "faction leading character", regardless of their melee prowess nor pedigree in the fluff. Likewise a line of "but they called him the beast!!!" isn't magically enough to make him go around stomping everyone sub primarch level into the dust.

Well, not wrong - if people are going to swing around the Bias Sword, they should know it cuts both ways.
Important thing is to look at the facts we're given (which we don't even have all of them yet).

I'd kinda like it if ghaz then became a futurama-esque head in a jar, leading the ork race from some mech body.

Perhaps not Ghaz, but I'd honestly love a Ork character who's a head in a jar, carried by a Gretchin. Maybe Nazdreg accidentally blew himself up? Have a nigh unkillable character (I don't know, give him some kind of "sneaky" rule due to his size) who sucks in combat (he is a head in a jar) but give out tons of buffing abilities to the army (Nazdreg being stupid filthy rich and 'diktatin'' how to make beefier guns).

Da Boss wrote:I think it would be good to make a list of Space Marine characters who could beat Ghaz.

Spoiler:

Dante - he is 1100 years old! And a total badass.
Mephiston - He is space marine dracula! And conquered the red thirst!
Sanguinor - The avatar of Sanguinious!

Bjorn the Fell Handed - Been alive since the Great Crusade! Actually met the Big E
Logan Grimnir - He is the chapter master of the Wolves, so if Ragnar can do it...
Ragnar Blackmane - as shown here

Marneus Calgar - the dude punched out an Avatar, of course he can take Ghaz. Plus he has been souped up with primaris juice!
Guilliman - Obviously, a Primarch is the most dangerous thing in the setting

Cypher - he has been alive since the Heresy!

Kaldor Draigo - I mean if the guy can slay multiple Greater Daemons, Ghaz should be no problem.

Someone like Helbrecht could probably not beat him in a duel but would definitely win a space batttle against him.

Then of course you have the leader of the Custodes, obviously could take him down too.
After that, I guess most other Chapter Masters and captains would get killed by Ghaz. Pedro Kantor, Lysander, Shrike and so on. Not really tough enough to take Ghaz on alone, they would likely need a small squad of veterans to do it.

And of course Chaos Marines wise, well, most of their heroes could kill Ghaz
Abbadon - Obviously, he has a daemon sword and the talon of Horus!
Kharn - Yeah, he is the chosen of the God of War
Mortarian and Magnus - Daemon Primarch anyone?
Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.

So like you can see that most Space Marines can kill Ghaz. It is therefore logical that lesser warlords can be killed by lesser chapter masters. Ergo, Orks are not really a threat. If the Imperium of Man did not have so much busy work on, it could wipe out the Orks for sure.

Yeah, I'd say they can all beat Ghaz. But, I'd also say that Ghaz could beat all of them in return - if Ragnar can beat Ghaz, someone a "tier" higher than himself, Ghaz should be able to defeat a Primarch, to a mutual kill, like what Ragnar did to him. That doesn't mean Ghaz is equal to a Primarch, but it does mean he's capable, with a great deal of luck and underdoggedness, to inflict a mutual kill.

The sword swings both ways - I'm happy for Ghaz to have made mutual kills on other Space Marine heroes. It doesn't mean that Ragnar shouldn't be capable too.

But hey, let's keep assuming that Space Marine players hate their guys to lose.

An Actual Englishman wrote:Boss, you aren't thinking big enough buddy. One of the (many) arguments here is that Ghaz' cannot stand in the same arena as the Primarchs, you silly dum dum, because they have a spark of the Emperor's divinity within them.

Did anyone say that? I remember points that Ghaz *wasn't* on the Primarch's tier, but not that he couldn't hurt them. And I certainly don't support the Primarchs having the Emperor's divinity - they have a spark of the Warp's divinity.

Now unless I'm mistaken, every single Custodes also has some of the Emperor's 'spark' within them . So they'd all obviously flatten him.

Do they?

Now (again correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm no marine expert) but doesn't every Marine have a part of their Primarch within their very genes? Now if the Primarchs all have this 'spark of divinity' and the Marines all have part of their Primarch's genetic material within them, then obviously it stands to reason that, actually, every single Marine in the 40k setting can, and should, beat Ghaz'.

Not quite, but I'm glad you preface with not pretending to be a Marine expert.
The geneseed isn't actually infused with Warp power, so the actual "demigodly" part of the Primarch isn't passed down. Furthermore, while the geneseed is passed down from the Primarch to the Marine, it's nowhere near as potent down the centuries.

Basically, while the geneseed does give power, it's nowhere near the same "spark of divinity" that the Primarchs possessed. Instead, it's has more religious and spiritual significance.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deffrekka wrote:
Ghaz in his own unique field. And just for clarification sake, Ghaz is the self entitled Prophet of Gork and Mork, he isnt an Avatar. For all we know he is actually extremely psychic or just lucky. Or he could very well be the Prophet. We simply have to take his word for it and anyone who disagrees with him gets headbutted.

I would leave the Prime-Ork / Primarch comparisons at the door, they arent the same beast (pun not intended). Also im pretty sure its stated in one of the 30k books that the Primarchs are Demi-Gods of war. That could be figuratively or literally, but they are all still in a different weight category than any other MORTAL creature in the Galaxy.

Yeah, can't say I argue with this.

Ghaz isn't the Beast, but he's not a basic Warboss either. I'd say he is capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch, but he'd be disadvantaged.

Well, yeah. That is what I am saying. For some reason it seems to make people annoyed, but it is literally just what they themselves say - Space Marines are the main, protagonist, first class faction, and Xenos factions are just NPC foils to them, second class and lucky if they get an update.

It is weird. Sometimes, people make the argument that Xenos is not second class, but then those same people make arguments that show that Xenos IS second class. Just be consistent and accept the game and it's "lore" for what it is. A Space Marine party of wish fulfillment and power fantasy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.

And Orks aren't?

Nowhere to the same degree.
An Ork produces a gestalt field with minor belief-based paracausal powers. Sanguinius can fly, despite him knowing it should be impossible for him to do. Every Primarch exudes an aura which compels most nearby beings to kneel or submit to them. Many others boast supernatural effects (Dorn can produce an anti-Warp aura, Sanguinius can fly, Corax can Wraithslip and can literally turn himself into flocks of ravens, Angron used to be able to absorb the pain of others).
I'm not saying they're gods, but they do have godly powers.

Those "godly" powers are all actually just "warp" powers. Also what's this rubbish about Primarchs exuding an aura that compels "most nearby beings to kneel or submit to them"? Where the hell is that from?

Marine players gonna defend a marine Captain beheading the greatest Ork to exist in the current setting

The greatest Ork to exist is the Beast of Beasts, not Ghaz.
Check your bias.

Highlighted the point you missed. Check your reading.

An Actual Englishman wrote:Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.

Is anyone claiming that? The Primarchs are demigodly because they're literally infused with that sweet sweet warp juice - not the Emperor's power.
For what it's worth, I also class Greater Daemons and suchlike as demigods, just for consistency.

Your opinion is worth less and less as this discussion continues, as far as I'm concerned. I'm baffled by your repeated hypocrisy and random leaps of non-logic. Orks were created by a race of fething 'Old ones', just like the Eldar. They are so touched by the warp that they can control reality itself. Yey you claim that, for some reason known only to yourself, that they "aren't the same as the Primarchs who are infused with "sweet sweet warp juice". What do you think WAAAAAGGGHHH!! energy is (that is present in EVERY ORK, I might add) you grot?

Hence, Primarchs are pretty similar to Greater Daemons, but not identical. Regardless, I think, given the paracausal abilities of Primarchs and their warpy origin, I'm happy calling them demigods, even if the Emperor wasn't.

You can call them what you like. It doesn't make your opinion correct or even sensible.

Besides, can we definitely say that Ghaz isn't suffused with the power of Gork and Mork?

I thought it was pretty much confirmed he was suffused with their power? Not that it makes him invulnerable.

BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.

this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Those "godly" powers are all actually just "warp" powers.

Yeah, I'm not denying that. I'm saying that innate Warp powers (not psychic powers) are demi-godly though.
Obviously, that's my interpretation and semantics, but they're equally as valid as any other interpretation.

Also what's this rubbish about Primarchs exuding an aura that compels "most nearby beings to kneel or submit to them"? Where the hell is that from?

Most HH books - when mortals, and even Space Marines, come near to a Primarch, they nearly all experience 'transhuman dread', and feel overcome with emotion at the sheer presence of a Primarch.

Highlighted the point you missed. Check your reading.

My bad. All the same, "greatest Ork in the current setting" doesn't necessarily change his rating compared to other factions. Calgar is no longer the "greatest Ultramarines in the current setting", but his power level hasn't changed.

To put it another way, imagine if I placed Calgar and Ghaz at the No.1 spot in both their respective factions, and said they were comparable in strength/fighting (which I don't think is a too far fetched claim). Now, Guilliman comes along, and demotes Calgar to No.2 spot. Is Ghaz now equal to Guilliman in power, and is Calgar now weaker? No, he's just been eclipsed by someone more powerful than himself, but he's still the same. Therefore, the Ork No.1 is equivalent to the Ultramarine No.2 - purely because Guilliman is much stronger than Calgar.

What's my point? Power rating and stuff doesn't always have to be directly equivalent. The most powerful X might not be the equal to the most powerful Y (and yes, Space Marines lose out here too - the most powerful Chapter Master isn't equivalent to the most powerful Custodian, or Greater Daemon).

Your opinion is worth less and less as this discussion continues, as far as I'm concerned.

Likewise - glad we can agree on something!

Orks were created by a race of fething 'Old ones', just like the Eldar.

Weren't humans too? And, just because they were created by the Old Ones, it doesn't make them inherently "more" paracausal.

They are so touched by the warp that they can control reality itself.

To a pretty minor degree though - it's not like they can just sprout wings and fly.
I'm not denying their paracausality, but I am saying it's nowhere near as influential as a Primarch's.

Yey you claim that, for some reason known only to yourself, that they "aren't the same as the Primarchs who are infused with "sweet sweet warp juice". What do you think WAAAAAGGGHHH!! energy is (that is present in EVERY ORK, I might add) you grot?

Less sweet sweet Warp juice, that has a much less pronounced effect.

Waaagh! energy is latent psychic energy, not "my body is literally made up of warp material".

You can call them what you like. It doesn't make your opinion correct or even sensible.

Perhaps: but it's just as valid as your own opinions on the matter. It's not like there's an objective definition, is there?

I don't believe you'd be happy with this at all, actually.

I mean, if you want to go ahead and put me under a lie detector, or read my thoughts, go ahead, but other than that, you're just projecting there, bud. Just to be clear, you'd also be fine if I started commenting on all your comments and saying "well AKSHUALLY you REALLY believe THIS, because *I* know your brain better than even YOU".

Obviously not. It's just projecting nonsense.

You simply know that there's no risk of this happening because GW love their Primarchs too much.

Oh, that;s very true. But, as we've seen with Ghaz, they weren't content to kill him properly either. I'd say it's more likely GW don't want to properly kill any of their characters.

IF you genuinely would be happy for Ghaz to mutually kill Guilliman, fair enough.

Fair enough indeed.

But hey, let's keep assuming that Space Marine players hate their guys to lose.

You are kinda proving they do in your defence of this very piece of lore....

You know I only support this because Ragnar also loses, right? If Ragnar had just won outright, I'd be calling it out as well.

And I certainly don't support the Primarchs having the Emperor's divinity - they have a spark of the Warp's divinity.

It's the same thing. You've literally just replaced "Emperor's" with "Warp".

Yeah? There's a difference between the two. What's wrong with that?

Now unless I'm mistaken, every single Custodes also has some of the Emperor's 'spark' within them . So they'd all obviously flatten him.

Do they?

Yes. Read "Aegis of the Emperor" rule.

Eh, I take that to mean that they're just incredibly well protected through biological/alchemical enhancements. But, if not - doesn't that prove your argument that the Emperor IS divine?

I don't think he was divine (at least, not until after the Heresy), but the excerpt you post there implies he is. So, what's your take on the matter?

The geneseed isn't actually infused with Warp power, so the actual "demigodly" part of the Primarch isn't passed down. Furthermore, while the geneseed is passed down from the Primarch to the Marine, it's nowhere near as potent down the centuries.

Basically, while the geneseed does give power, it's nowhere near the same "spark of divinity" that the Primarchs possessed. Instead, it's has more religious and spiritual significance.

Of course. Silly me. :eyeroll:

You asked for clarification. I provided it.

Ghaz isn't the Beast, but he's not a basic Warboss either. I'd say he is capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch, but he'd be disadvantaged.

Honestly? If this is true then fair enough, I can't argue with that. If you'd take the lore swings both way then I can see why this particular circumstance with Ghaz and Ragnar makes sense to you.

Yes, honestly, and yes, it does put my position of Ghaz and Ragnar into context. It would be incredibly hypocritical of me to say otherwise. Glad we got somewhere.

What actually defines a God in 40k? An alpha level pysker on some backwater planet on the fringe of Imperium space could be a God to the population of that planet. And if we look at D&D deities, they arent immortal either. So to the greater population of the 40k setting they are seen as demi-gods. The Chaos gods themselves were little more than warp echoes really to begin with.... Ghaz may one day reach "Prime-Ork" level, but he still isnt on the same power scale as any Primarch.

I love Ghaz, but id rather not have him as a cheap knock of some long dead Ork. I dont care if he is a Prime-Ork, he doesnt need to act or do what the original Beast did. You have to remember, Ghaz's dubbing of the Beast was given to him during Armageddon and 99.9999999% of the Imperium and Ork race wouldnt have any idea who the Beast actually was or if he existed. The only correlation the two have is sharing a title, everything else pretty much ends there. Remember Ghaz had his title waaaaaaaay before the Beast Arises series was even a thing. Its just a fitting name, nothing else. I dont link Ghaz with the Beast of m.32, and I dont think GW were trying to imply that he is a Prime-Ork neither. He is on his way to being one, but he isnt one yet.

This whole "Prime-Ork" thing is really cringey to me. Obvious primarch pun.

And there have always been huge, powerful Ork warlords. Giving one of them special stauts because he was in a series of novels is...meh.

I am gonna go read the first one, because I see Dan wrote it.

And Im not saying Ghaz couldnt mop the floor with Guilliman, but its not a likely thing to happen. Unless some serious plot armour was involved, I cant see it happening.

And also, Ghaz doesnt strike me as the type of Ork to go for the head of the snake. He wants strong opponents, he wants unending war. He doesnt go out of his way to make duels, hes the kind of Ork that sets a match on flame and throws it on the gasoline, then walks off and sets another place ablaze.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
This whole "Prime-Ork" thing is really cringey to me. Obvious primarch pun.

And there have always been huge, powerful Ork warlords. Giving one of them special stauts because he was in a series of novels is...meh.

Yeah I find it cringey too, whenever I watch Valrak I have to grit my teeth haha!!!

To be fair, giving a Marine Captain special status because he was in a series of novels should be equally "meh".

The word "Prime-ork" is absolutely cringey because it is an Imperial designation of an Orkish phenomenon. Indeed it is supposed to mirror "Primarch" because that's what humanity (in the story) approximated their power to.

An Ork probably wouldn't have a specific word for the Beast, excluding "Boss" and "Beast". My preferred designation is "Beast" Ork. It sounds more Orky.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The word "Prime-ork" is absolutely cringey because it is an Imperial designation of an Orkish phenomenon. Indeed it is supposed to mirror "Primarch" because that's what humanity (in the story) approximated their power to.

An Ork probably wouldn't have a specific word for the Beast, excluding "Boss" and "Beast". My preferred designation is "Beast" Ork. It sounds more Orky.

Most Ork tech is cringeworthy, brutalised versions of pre-existing tech. I think it makes sense that they’d occasionally pick up a name to butcher to go with it, happens in most languages. It’s also possible “Prime-Ork” is a human term that the Orks just kind of picked up on and adopted as a title because they dug the fear and awe their victims said it with.

 Da Boss wrote:

Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.

Now that poses a question! Would he? Would slaanesh' power be able to overcome ork emotions?

Furthermore, this could be asked of the other xenos if they happened to kill lucius.. Eldar probably would be affected.. Tau? No idea, don't care enough to know any of their lore.. Orks and tyranids though? Maybe a question for a thread of its own.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:

Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.

Now that poses a question! Would he? Would slaanesh' power be able to overcome ork emotions?

Furthermore, this could be asked of the other xenos if they happened to kill lucius.. Eldar probably would be affected.. Tau? No idea, don't care enough to know any of their lore.. Orks and tyranids though? Maybe a question for a thread of its own.

I don't think Ghaz would get much enjoyment out of killing a soft, purple, kinky 'umie, myself. He doesn't know that Lucius is some storied legend and he doesn't care.

He's probably one of the few 40k characters that could perma-kill him, TBF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The word "Prime-ork" is absolutely cringey because it is an Imperial designation of an Orkish phenomenon. Indeed it is supposed to mirror "Primarch" because that's what humanity (in the story) approximated their power to.

An Ork probably wouldn't have a specific word for the Beast, excluding "Boss" and "Beast". My preferred designation is "Beast" Ork. It sounds more Orky.

Most Ork tech is cringeworthy, brutalised versions of pre-existing tech. I think it makes sense that they’d occasionally pick up a name to butcher to go with it, happens in most languages. It’s also possible “Prime-Ork” is a human term that the Orks just kind of picked up on and adopted as a title because they dug the fear and awe their victims said it with.

Have you read The Beast Arises series?

I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.

the exact wording, (per codex chaos 8 II) is "whomever kills him and suffers even a moment of sastifaction" Ghaz (or anyone else who doesn't know they just beat a legend) might not feel partiuclarly proud but you'd useally feel a small degree of sastifaction at a kill.

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.

this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"

Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.

the exact wording, (per codex chaos 8 II) is "whomever kills him and suffers even a moment of sastifaction" Ghaz (or anyone else who doesn't know they just beat a legend) might not feel partiuclarly proud but you'd useally feel a small degree of sastifaction at a kill.

Dno man, for Orks killing is as natural as breathing. They are truly neutral. Do you feel satisfaction at taking a breath?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.

the exact wording, (per codex chaos 8 II) is "whomever kills him and suffers even a moment of sastifaction" Ghaz (or anyone else who doesn't know they just beat a legend) might not feel partiuclarly proud but you'd useally feel a small degree of sastifaction at a kill.

Dno man, for Orks killing is as natural as breathing. They are truly neutral. Do you feel satisfaction at taking a breath?

except Orks enjoy fighting. That's kinda a big part of their identity. win, lose it's all good fun to the Orks. or did the latest codex retcon that?

Considering that slaanesh will just bring him back anyways it hardly matters. As long as Ghaz doesn’t destroy Lucius’s soul, Slaanesh can just find another meat bag for Lucius to possess,. The warp doesn’t have to follow its own rules because they’re all made up anyway.

On the plus side, Ghaz’s new rules make it almost impossible for him to lose a straight up duel to anyone except maybe a demon primarch. So rule wise, almost any character except maybe Magnus is screwed unless they have support.

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.

this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"

Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.

Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is

GW wrote:We've never seen rules for the Orks of the Great Crusade era. What we do know of them, is that there were some that were probably of comparable size to this big guy, and they were almost a match for Primarchs and the Emperor himself.
At the Time of the Great Crusade, we know that the Imperium had over a dozen Primarchs, and 18 Fresh Legions, more titans than ever and it was still the greatest achievement of the GC when they did overthrow the Orks of Ullanor.

Might be relevant to this discussion.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

GW wrote:We've never seen rules for the Orks of the Great Crusade era. What we do know of them, is that there were some that were probably of comparable size to this big guy, and they were almost a match for Primarchs and the Emperor himself.
At the Time of the Great Crusade, we know that the Imperium had over a dozen Primarchs, and 18 Fresh Legions, more titans than ever and it was still the greatest achievement of the GC when they did overthrow the Orks of Ullanor.

Might be relevant to this discussion.

Depends - what's the source on that? A Facebook post, for example, would be less reliable than something in a Codex or rulebook.

 deffrekka wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.

this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"

Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.

Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is

except that this fight was before Ragnar and Ghaz where rebuilt at got their new rules. so we're using the old rules for them both.

BrianDavion wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.

this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"

Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.

Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is

except that this fight was before Ragnar and Ghaz where rebuilt at got their new rules. so we're using the old rules for them both.

how do you know Ghaz wasnt this big all along? after all the codex is set after PA. PA is filling in the fluff before Dark Iimperium takes off. Just like how Space Marines always magically had Centurion Warsuits, Stalker and Hunter tanks, Stormtalons, etc. It is just rewriting the lore. Grotsnik only reattached his head, he didnt give him some extra strong Dok's juice too as far as we are aware or built him new armour, a gun and a klaw. At this current time, as of when PA is out, Ghaz's profile represents him. Orkz dont get bigger when they loose a fight, Warbosses have been known to visibly shrink when they loose another fight with a fellow Warboss (if they arent outright slain). Uggrim in Evil Sunz Rising was told to shrink as to not draw attention to himself from the other Mek Bosses. Ghaz's old model and rules have no affect on his new model and his and Ragnar's duel. All we know is Ragnar got upgraded, Ghaz just got his head sewn back on, which isnt an uncommon thing in Ork society. Hell there was even a Warboss in older editions named Jar 'Ead who was literally a head in a Jar that was plugged into mega armour. Mogrok also lost his head in Hour of the Wolf and it was sewn back onto a Goff Nob's body.

 deffrekka wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.

this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"

Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.

Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is

Makes sense as Space Wolves wouldn't be smart enough to knock him down to four wounds before charging in.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Makes sense as Space Wolves wouldn't be smart enough to knock him down to four wounds before charging in.

Well if they want to make it the story of Space Wolves shooting every anti-tank weapons available at Ghaz for half an afternoon and then sending Ragnar for the finishing blow they very well can, but then the heroic nearly impossible feat of the Space Wolf captain looks pretty damn weaker (this is actually how I will rationalise this idiocy). After looking at Ghaz's leaked stats, I doubt Ragnar would do well in a shooting contest against him. It's basically one dude with a tiny pistol against a giant dude with four cannons sticked together. At some point, quantity is a quality.

 deffrekka wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"

Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.

this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"

Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.

Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is

except that this fight was before Ragnar and Ghaz where rebuilt at got their new rules. so we're using the old rules for them both.

how do you know Ghaz wasnt this big all along? after all the codex is set after PA. PA is filling in the fluff before Dark Iimperium takes off. Just like how Space Marines always magically had Centurion Warsuits, Stalker and Hunter tanks, Stormtalons, etc. It is just rewriting the lore. Grotsnik only reattached his head, he didnt give him some extra strong Dok's juice too as far as we are aware or built him new armour, a gun and a klaw. At this current time, as of when PA is out, Ghaz's profile represents him. Orkz dont get bigger when they loose a fight, Warbosses have been known to visibly shrink when they loose another fight with a fellow Warboss (if they arent outright slain). Uggrim in Evil Sunz Rising was told to shrink as to not draw attention to himself from the other Mek Bosses. Ghaz's old model and rules have no affect on his new model and his and Ragnar's duel. All we know is Ragnar got upgraded, Ghaz just got his head sewn back on, which isnt an uncommon thing in Ork society. Hell there was even a Warboss in older editions named Jar 'Ead who was literally a head in a Jar that was plugged into mega armour. Mogrok also lost his head in Hour of the Wolf and it was sewn back onto a Goff Nob's body.

proably because ragnar in the codex wasn't a primaris marine, ghaz's old stats stats thus represent him "before his rebuild"

.