Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Da Boss wrote: Yeah, Orks job is to be killed by space marines, like all aliens. They are a third class faction, NPCs, like I keep saying.
Why do we pretend otherwise? This game is about Space Marines killing everyone else. It is a power fantasy game for Marine fans. The rest of us are only here to facillitate them.
except no one ever said that, however Space Marines job is indeed to kill Orks.
I mean stop and think about the state of the galaxy when the great crusade began. the three major forces in the galaxy at the time are humanity, eldar and the orks. Let's look at space Marines.
they're engineered to be super strong, fairly fast, exceptionally durable. their weaponry is designed to cause massive internal damage. honestly you could make a strong argument that Marines are basicly DESIGNED to fight Orks
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I think what he's saying is that Space Marines (and the Imperium at large) are obviously the protagonists of the 40k universe. They're the literal face of the franchise, as well as being the focus of most (if not all) of the novels. Even in the game fluff, they're presented as almost always winning the day, in spite of the odds, and their model range dwarfs that of any other Faction. It should be no surprise that the environment that GW has created makes the other Factions feel like little more than minor obstacles for the Imperium to overcome.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 19:56:31
Da Boss wrote: Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Less important is relative. To a Space Wolves player, Ragnar's pretty damn important.
Also, Ghaz isn't the "leader of an entire xenos faction" any more so than Calgar is the leader of all Space Marines. He's the leader of the largest Waaagh!, and is widely considered the most influential Ork in the current age of 40k, but he doesn't lead the entire race. That's what he's trying to do, but hasn't got there yet.
Not that I'm either an SW fan or Ork fan, but for what it's worth, I prefer Orks more.
Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines. We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
Da Boss wrote: Yeah, Orks job is to be killed by space marines, like all aliens. They are a third class faction, NPCs, like I keep saying.
Why do we pretend otherwise? This game is about Space Marines killing everyone else. It is a power fantasy game for Marine fans. The rest of us are only here to facillitate them.
except no one ever said that, however Space Marines job is indeed to kill Orks.
I mean stop and think about the state of the galaxy when the great crusade began. the three major forces in the galaxy at the time are humanity, eldar and the orks. Let's look at space Marines.
they're engineered to be super strong, fairly fast, exceptionally durable. their weaponry is designed to cause massive internal damage. honestly you could make a strong argument that Marines are basicly DESIGNED to fight Orks
Of course. Marines are the strongest, most determined, most heroic and most best faction. They eat poison and spit acid. They are practically immune to small arms fire. They fire weapons so powerful the utterly shred other factions infantry. And the even have a new, even more durable version with even better weaponry, the sort that is support weaponry for other factions is their basic gun!
They are the protagonists of the majority of the fiction and recieve the lions share of the model releases. They are obviously GWs best selling minis and most successful concept, and by far the most popular faction in their entire IP.
People love power fantasies. Nothing wrong with it. It is cool. I like marines too!
Xenos factions (and chaos to a much lesser extent) only exist to serve as foils to the marines, people for them to beat up and keep the variety fresh for them so the power fantasy does not get too tired and boring. Orks are just a comic relief faction that exist only to get mown down by Marines in huge numbers. Big Orks serve only as faceless tough guy mooks to prove how bad ass marine officers are. Really big orks are only there for the final scene in a piece of fiction to make it temporarily exciting before the marine character wins. We are not a full faction really. Same goes for Tyranids, and Eldar, and Dark Eldar and Necrons. We are just different flavours of NPC for the marine players to beat up on. It is obvious. You know it is true too, I dunno why it offends you when I say it and you feel the need to argue against it. You are a marine fan, this should make you happy. The game has been designed to appeal directly to you!
Da Boss wrote: Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Less important is relative. To a Space Wolves player, Ragnar's pretty damn important.
Also, Ghaz isn't the "leader of an entire xenos faction" any more so than Calgar is the leader of all Space Marines. He's the leader of the largest Waaagh!, and is widely considered the most influential Ork in the current age of 40k, but he doesn't lead the entire race. That's what he's trying to do, but hasn't got there yet.
Not that I'm either an SW fan or Ork fan, but for what it's worth, I prefer Orks more.
Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines. We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
are you really trying to argue the only person in the IoM whom should ever challange Ghaz is Gulliman?
that's just silly remember who fought Abaddon in Vigilius, it was Calgar, whom despite losing the duel, outplayed Abaddon.
bu abaddon is the "big faction leader" by your logic, only Gulliman should have been capable right?!
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Ghaz is a big Ork Warboss.
Ragnar is a famous Space Marine hero.
You say can say he's no Grimnar, but actually he basically is.
They're both heroic marines rather than transcendent beings, and Ragnar is the heir apparent.
Nothing short of a god should be untouchable compared to the various heroes of the setting.
Da Boss wrote: Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Less important is relative. To a Space Wolves player, Ragnar's pretty damn important.
Also, Ghaz isn't the "leader of an entire xenos faction" any more so than Calgar is the leader of all Space Marines. He's the leader of the largest Waaagh!, and is widely considered the most influential Ork in the current age of 40k, but he doesn't lead the entire race. That's what he's trying to do, but hasn't got there yet.
Not that I'm either an SW fan or Ork fan, but for what it's worth, I prefer Orks more.
Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines. We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
are you really trying to argue the only person in the IoM whom should ever challange Ghaz is Gulliman?
Not at all. Not even close.
I'll summarise my post for you, since you missed it the first time - 'every faction has a "Guilliman", a character that represents the best a [faction] can be. Dark Eldar (should) have Vect, for example. Eldar have Eldrad. Ultramarines have Girlyman. Space Wolves have Russ/Grimnar. Death Guard have Morty. Thousand Sons have Magnus etc etc etc
Ghaz is our that. A faction representative like that should not get decapitated by a "number 2/3" of another faction (unless it's part of some ridiculously intricate, self destructive plan/just as planned). This is poor writing. Particularly when it concerns the antagonists because it makes them seem much less of a threat.
Orks seem like a joke now.
that's just silly remember who fought Abaddon in Vigilius, it was Calgar, whom despite losing the duel, outplayed Abaddon.
bu abaddon is the "big faction leader" by your logic, only Gulliman should have been capable right?!
Bad example because from what I've heard Abaddon absolutely bitch-slapped Calgar like he was nothing, could've killed him quite easily but instead decided to return back to his ship. If I remember correctly this was really stupid, made very little sense in lore and annoyed many CSM players.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 20:35:23
But Orks ARE a joke. They've always been a joke. They time travel to get 2 of the same gun, they wage galactic war for fun, they're all cockney and kill Titans with one bike.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: But Orks ARE a joke. They've always been a joke. They time travel to get 2 of the same gun, they wage galactic war for fun, they're all cockney and kill Titans with one bike.
RIP Wazzdakka.
To be honest I don't disagree, Orks generally are a joke. Ghaz was/is supposed to be the -one- -scary- -Ork-. Now he's fell in with the comedy troupe.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 20:56:07
I think there's a difference between a Faction having humorous qualities and the same Faction not being a threat. For example, the Joker has a lot of dark humor associated with him and it works well because he's also a legitimate threat to Gotham. Imagine how much it would bring down the character if the Joker enacted a huge plan and Commissioner Gordon stopped him single-handedly and with ease.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
He was finished off to most outside observation.
He's literally described as being cold as a stone before he revives.
pm713 wrote: But Orks ARE a joke. They've always been a joke. They time travel to get 2 of the same gun, they wage galactic war for fun, they're all cockney and kill Titans with one bike.
flandarz wrote: I think there's a difference between a Faction having humorous qualities and the same Faction not being a threat. For example, the Joker has a lot of dark humor associated with him and it works well because he's also a legitimate threat to Gotham. Imagine how much it would bring down the character if the Joker enacted a huge plan and Commissioner Gordon stopped him single-handedly and with ease.
Brilliantly said. I literally couldn't have put it better myself.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
He was finished off to most outside observation.
He's literally described as being cold as a stone before he revives.
And you think that Abaddon, a guy that has fought against countless enemies and has killed countless Marines, with all those superhuman senses he has, would not realise that Calgar was alive and finish the job? K.
flandarz wrote: I think there's a difference between a Faction having humorous qualities and the same Faction not being a threat. For example, the Joker has a lot of dark humor associated with him and it works well because he's also a legitimate threat to Gotham. Imagine how much it would bring down the character if the Joker enacted a huge plan and Commissioner Gordon stopped him single-handedly and with ease.
Brilliantly said. I literally couldn't have put it better myself.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
He was finished off to most outside observation.
He's literally described as being cold as a stone before he revives.
And you think that Abaddon, a guy that has fought against countless enemies and has killed countless Marines, with all those superhuman senses he has, would not realise that Calgar was alive and finish the job? K.
The vengeful spirit was crippled and translating to the warp without him, he left a unit of his best chosen to finish the job while he got off planet while he could.
That and you know, having 0 hearts working is generally pretty fatal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 21:44:22
Insectum7 wrote: Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.
Let us not forget the more recent sacrifice of Colour Sergeant Kell.
IG are the faceless mooks in the grinder. thats what their feel is and thats what their fans like. I mean to be honest I suspect few guard players care about
Genuine question, who has Ghazzy actually beaten in a duel? I'm not 100% up to speed on ork fluff but he's lost to Yarrick, Helbrecht and Yarrick again so far plus ragnar, but has taken down a handful of other warbosses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 22:16:32
Insectum7 wrote: Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.
Let us not forget the more recent sacrifice of Colour Sergeant Kell.
IG are the faceless mooks in the grinder. thats what their feel is and thats what their fans like. I mean to be honest I suspect few guard players care about
Ew, no.
my point is most guard players don't want the guard with a ton of super larger then life heros.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
And you think that Abaddon, a guy that has fought against countless enemies and has killed countless Marines, with all those superhuman senses he has, would not realise that Calgar was alive and finish the job? K.
Why is that unbelievable to you? It's a pretty new ability on the galactic stage, Calgar can only revive due to a combination of his heroic willpower and Primaris nature.
A regular space marine like what Abaddon has spent thousands of years killing would be dead.
Dudeface wrote: Genuine question, who has Ghazzy actually beaten in a duel? I'm not 100% up to speed on ork fluff but he's lost to Yarrick, Helbrecht and Yarrick again so far plus ragnar, but has taken down a handful of other warbosses.
Actually Yarrick has never beaten Ghaz in a dual. He lost both times, but was left alive because he was a good general and gave a tough fight. Helbretcht and Ghaz never dueled, they fought each other in fleet to fleet action and won. Master Belial lost badly a duel to Ghaz and had his spine broken (it got better), but Ghaz, as usual, left him alive because he gave him a good fight. Ghaz used to be an unstoppable killing machine who basically never killed his best opponents because he likes to fight them again and again.
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote: Actually Yarrick has never beaten Ghaz in a dual. He lost both times, but was left alive because he was a good general and gave a tough fight. Helbretcht and Ghaz never dueled, they fought each other in fleet to fleet action and won. Master Belial lost badly a duel to Ghaz and had his spine broken (it got better), but Ghaz, as usual, left him alive because he gave him a good fight. Ghaz used to be an unstoppable killing machine who basically never killed his best opponents because he likes to fight them again and again.
Yeah, not sure where this idea of Yarrick beating Ghaz one-on-one comes from. Yarrick beat and killed another Warboss, one of Ghazzy's sub-bosses, and was able to strategically beat Thraka on the field, but as for actually beating him in person? Didn't happen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 22:51:17
One thing to keep in mind is every faction has a "he is theior greatest hero and is almost the primarch reborn" while for the blood angels it's Dante and Calgar for the Ultramarines, for the Space Wolves I've always felt Ragnar was more the "heir of russ" then Logan. I mean Ragnar has two pet wolves for god's sake.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
He was finished off to most outside observation.
He's literally described as being cold as a stone before he revives.
Again.. 'Well he was dead, but wait then he revived!'
Lame. Just kill someone off already. Kill off abaddon. He's one of my favourite characters, but kill him off please! Just make some good lore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Genuine question, who has Ghazzy actually beaten in a duel? I'm not 100% up to speed on ork fluff but he's lost to Yarrick, Helbrecht and Yarrick again so far plus ragnar, but has taken down a handful of other warbosses.
Who has beaten anyone in a duel? Legitimately killed I mean.. Cold, six feet under, actually, truly dead. No one, because everyone's characters have to live, even if they die.
That's why the Heresy, where characters actually die, sometimes, makes better lore. Called it. Come at me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 23:30:02
Why is that unbelievable to you? It's a pretty new ability on the galactic stage, Calgar can only revive due to a combination of his heroic willpower and Primaris nature.
A regular space marine like what Abaddon has spent thousands of years killing would be dead.
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Lame. Just kill someone off already. Kill off abaddon. He's one of my favourite characters, but kill him off please! Just make some good lore.
Senseless killing does not good lore make. There's really nothing to be gained at killing Abaddon at this stage.
What's so cringe about it? What sets a hero space marine apart from a normal brother? Biologically they're going to be very similar.
The Belisarian Furnace meanwhile is an established bit of fluff, so it makes sense for that to kick in when it does.
We don't really know the details of how the fight goes down. The writer could do a good job, or a bad job, it's hard to know until we actually get to read it. I do think main characters always bouncing off each other in these fights is disappointing, and would rather see a few of my favorite characters die to maintain the sense that there is danger in these confrontations.
When it comes to Ragnar vs Ghazzy, it's true that Ragnar isn't just some Captain. He's one of the most skilled Space Marines out there. Also, Space Marines choose their officers based on their ability to lead, not just their ability to fight. I wouldn't be surprised if in most Chapters their most skilled fighter wasn't the Chapter Master or even one of the captains. On the other hand, orks do generally follow the lead of the biggest and best fighter, so that's why losing a duel is very high stakes for orks. (To be sure Ghazzy is a very smart ork.)
Also, really weird stuff happens. Sometimes someone who is at a disadvantage gets a lucky thrust in. Sometimes someone who is at an advantage takes a piece of shrapnel to the face at a bad moment.
So, I'm just going to wait until the actual story gets released before making my mind up about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing I want to mention is that "Warboss" is often used to cover a lot of different orks that differ greatly in power.
Codexes, campaign books and such don't always line up in terms of terminology, and there's also the issue of them often being written from the Imperial perspective using Imperial designations. Also I imagine orks themselves don't particularly care about conforming to any sort of formal nomenclature or organization (other than maybe those weirdo Blood Axes ).
This is what I've gathered from reading a bunch of the ork stuff over the years:
Big Boss - roughly equivalent to an ork lieutenant (hasn't had rules since early 3rd)
Warboss - leader of a Warband, which is usually said to be a hundred or so orks
Warlord -this is where it gets confusing because it seems to be a term with no upper limit, but I'd divide it up into three categories for our purposes
*Warlord 1 - leader of an ork Tribe, which is sometimes defined as "a few hundred to a few thousand orks" and sometimes as all the orks in a specific region
*Warlord 2 - an ork Warlord who has united many tribes (at least one planet) under his rule and is either leading a Waaagh! or about to launch one.
*Warlord 3 - an ork Warlord leading an especially large Waaagh! or the leader of one of the large ork empires (Snagrod, Nazdreg, etc.)
Primeork - the biggest orks in history, such as The Beast from The Beast Arises
Note: The Armageddon campaign books had somewhat different takes on the terms. Codex: Armageddon had a Warband as 300 - 3000 orks IIRC (I'd need to dig it out to confirm) which is more analogous to a Tribe in other sources. The Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement had Warlords leading "Warhordes" (a term I've only seen in that book) which seemed to be about the size of tribe but they don't give specific numbers.
It's confusing because Warlord 1s are relatively common, and a Space Marine Captain would probably win a fight with one most of them time, but Warlord 3s are rare and nigh-unstoppable monsters that often kill high ranking Space Marines in the books. Doubly confusing when "Warboss" and "Warlord" often get used interchangeably.
In terms of Prime-orks vs Primarchs
Spoiler:
Vulkan knew he couldn't beat The Beast in a straight-up fight
I think Ghazzy is supposed to be somewhere in between Warlord 3 and Prime-ork, but I don't really know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 02:37:42
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
It is very simple - there is a difference between how Smudge thinks Ghaz should be presented (i.e., a "Beast"/Prime-Ork-nonsense) and how GWare currently presenting Ghaz (at the roughly Chapter Master tier, as Smudge perceives it).
Hardly rokkit science, AAE.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 06:45:00
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
It is very simple - there is a difference between how Smudge thinks Ghaz should be presented (i.e., a "Beast"/Prime-Ork-nonsense) and how GWare currently presenting Ghaz (at the roughly Chapter Master tier, as Smudge perceives it).
Hardly rokkit science, AAE.
Yes I understand the principle and this is exactly how I feel. The difference is I'm disappointed GW have brought Ghaz' a peg down and now represent him as CM level (he was always presented as stronger previously, see Dakka Dakka Flame's very useful post on Warlords and Warbosses above for reference) while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
Rokkit science is much easier to understand - big pointy end goes boom! Hit fings wiv dat!
Edit - Nazdreg still exists in the lore, he introduced Ghazzy to the Tellyporta tech and they are somewhat allies. Obviously no model because xenos don't get all their character models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 07:22:50
Member of 
DKoK Blog:
Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
).
